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Help with 1917 to 1932 Dodge and Graham Brothers truck serial number

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I've been trying to get the serial number systems for the 1917 to 1932 Dodge Brothers and Graham Brothers figured out. Here is what my research has led me to understand so far.

 

1917 to 1926 all Dodge Brothers trucks got Dodge Brothers car serial numbers. Those trucks were Panel and Screenside only until 1924 when a pickup was added. From 1917 to 1922 or 1923 the serial number was on a tag on the toe board and on the frame cross member under the floor boards. After that the frame number moved near the rear spring shackle of the front axle on the passenger side. The trucks were 1/2 ton until 1923 when the WB was lengthened and the weight rating was raised to 3/4 ton. Other data I have shows a possibility that some of the early trucks were also available as 3/4 tons.

 

1920 to 1926 all Graham Brothers trucks used Graham Brothers serial numbers. The serial numbers were located in the same places as the Dodge Brothers vehicles. Starting with the 1927 model year all truck production was taken over by Graham Brothers and with the exception of what I assume was using up leftover Dodge parts or something all trucks used the Graham Brothers badges from then until shortly after January 1929 when Dodge Brothers branding was used for all trucks due to the Chrysler takeover in July 1928. 

 

First, do I have this right? I am working with very little data on these early trucks as early factory literature is hard to find and when I do find some it either doesn't have serial numbers or it doesn't have years.

 

Second, what are the calendar year to year serial ranges for a given model year on the car serial numbers? I have seen claims of production that started July 1 and ended June 30 of the following year, but the charts I can find don't use that convention until 1924. I was using the one on the link below and the one at Myers.

 

http://www.dodgebrothersclub.org/DB_Production_Dates.pdf

 

Third, what actually happened with the late 1928-1932 production? It seems odd that the Graham Brothers serial number ranges were used from 1928 to 1932 and yet very similar trucks were rolling off the assembly lines starting in 1930 with numerical serial numbers with different model names, but often very similar engineering codes. Is there any chance that the production was more like 1928 to 1930 and the other models took over when Chrysler changed the name to Dodge Brothers? If not that means that both lines were running simultaneously. 

 

Fourth, is there any better breakdown than the serial number guides that gives the year to year production for the 1928 to 1932 serial number ranges? 

 

Fifth, why do some models in the serial number guide have a T like DAT and DET? Lots of literature has notes like W for wooden wheels and R for dual rear wheels, but I can't find an explanation for the T. It is also strange that there is a DAT, DDT, and a DCT, but no DBT.

 

Sixth, there is a Dodge Brothers chassis No. 1 mentioned in some literature. What model does that relate to? Is that the chassis for the Panel and Screenside? 

 

Any and all help is appreciated. 

 

Eric 

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Do you have copy of  (The Official Guide TO Dodge Brothers & Graham Brothers Trucks Through  1938  by DBCnews ).. Most of your questions are answered there . It is a great reprint of articles that appeared in Dodge Brothers Club News Magazine over years .

 

                                                                    Tom

 

                    ps ; serial number info that totals and divide by months of production got me within 2months on mine .

 

post-153818-0-70958600-1452178247_thumb.

Edited by ArticiferTom (see edit history)

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Thanks for your information. Where would I get a copy of the The Official Guide TO Dodge Brothers & Graham Brothers Trucks Through  1938  by DBCnews? I looked on the Dodge Brothers Club website and didn't see it listed. As for the divide method it can work, but it is not definitive. I have also found that the serial number guides varied over the years. I have the page you shared in every copy of the serial guide I've seen from 1939 to 1957 and surprisingly there are errors in some of the nearby pages despite it theoretically being the same data just repeated over time. I cross check among them and with other sources if at all possible when figuring out things. It's amazing how little errors creep in. 

 

My goal was to find factory literature that showed the details I was looking for if at all possible. 

 

Eric

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Get this referrence from the DB Club on these trucks. I forget the title got thru there lit sales. A get $10 investment with great history.

Sent you a private message.

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It is listed on DBC web site . Attached is pic of front page and one example page .  I would be interested in helping in any way .I tried contacting the author of most of article with no response  . My interest is what actual vehicle types and serial number ,compare to there motor numbers prefix's ie have  UF-10 code u2a engine in book listed to be Plymouth PA,  change prior year from U model . But my engine prefix is UT-24XXXX  base on build card this is original motor .  

 

DBC book.pdf

Edited by ArticiferTom (see edit history)

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One thing to remember is that Dodge did not build trucks in the early years only GB did.  That is why they are called business cars.

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In regards to your 3rd, 4th and 5th questions...

 

Q.#3)

A.) Yes they ran simultaneously. See explanation below.

 

Q.#4)

A.) There is no better method currently which is why our work is so important going forward.

 

Q.#5)

A.) I've noticed a trend with the T being used for 3/4 ton with the DAT being the only 1 ton. Have no documentation for my theory as of yet.

 

 

Below is an example of the DA 150 and DA 165 that ran simultaneously to the UF 30 UF 31 and the F30 and F31. All are 1 1/2 tons however the DA150 and 165"wb trucks were frame stamped yet the UF30, UF31, F30, and F31 all had serial tags attached. I have not seen any examples to date of a 1931 or 32 truck having both a frame number and a numerical serial number tag on the firewall. Simply put, the DA165 later became the F31 and were only tagged differently under the Chrysler brand from all indications.

 

 

 

post-112232-0-08532100-1452519526_thumb.

post-112232-0-69820500-1452519599_thumb.

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Gentlemen,

 

 I cannot stress enough how important the production numbers off of the parts lists books are. If anyone is viewing this and has ANY Graham Brothers or Dodge Brothers parts list books that show the effective date serial numbers for the Detroit, Evansville or Stockton built trucks as well as the numerical serial numbers parts books please post a clear image of the cover so we can all get a better understanding of the production numbers for future generations.

 

Here is an example of what is needed:

post-112232-0-49636700-1452520494_thumb.

post-112232-0-75168700-1452520594_thumb.

Edited by 30DodgePanel (see edit history)

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Looking at the frame designs shows a bases for truck types. My "E" series shares the shape as shown in following images. 

post-113706-0-55141900-1452650087_thumb.

post-113706-0-94215100-1452650100_thumb.

These are the "Commercial Truck" type trucks. Note the straight level top of rear frame portion. These were I believe to be similar to the "C", "D", and "E" trucks. They were built as Graham Bros and became Dodge Bros.

 

The next "F" and "G" series had a different frame shape. The following images are from a UF sales booklet.

post-113706-0-65159200-1452650126_thumb.post-113706-0-79109300-1452650127_thumb.post-113706-0-23182100-1452650128_thumb.post-113706-0-67221000-1452650128_thumb.

These were now Dodge Bros trucks built by Chrysler Corp. Note the curve of the frame over the rear axle.

 

These are trucks and not the Commercial Cars with used the frame of the passenger car.

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The DA-120, (3/4 ton "E" series) is basicly the same as the the DE truck. The DE truck does not show up in these summaries, but I know they exist because I have the vin toeplate with DE notes as 120" wheelbase. I have both of these DB trucks with registration to verify. The frames are identical. As is the similarities of the DA-130 and the BE truck.

The frame numbers as noted in the attached summary were sequenced from GB to DB trucks.

Be aware that Chrysler Corp would carry the GB connection after thier takeover for marketing purposes. They wanted to perserve reputation of the GB trucks.

The "UF and "F" series were a completely different series as I noted in previous post.

post-113706-0-20623700-1452706794_thumb.post-113706-0-06492600-1452706829_thumb.

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That is some very interesting information about the frame design. I am always impressed at the various ways to tell trucks apart. Is there any serial number information in that Graham Brothers book? Right now I am seeing serial numbers around D-229XXX-D231XXX at the end of 1929 or early 1930. D-237361 was the last truck made in Detroit according to the serial guide so either it took nearly two years to produce 6,000 trucks or the production ended before 1931 and the serial number guide is off. It'd be neat to see some build records or sales paperwork from some late E and S serial number trucks to compare to the D numbers I have seen so far.

 

Does anyone have any images of tags?  

 

Here is an image of a Graham Brothers tag I found on the internet somewhere. E127928 is a 1927 according to the serial number guide. Do the later tags have the car number like A936718? 

 

Eric

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 That serial number  of D-237361  is right just for Detroit  but end date is Jan 1932  , which like 3 3/4 years of production .

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The following vin plates are reproductions of my two trucks. The DE and the DA-120

post-113706-0-95404000-1452753013_thumb.post-113706-0-32016100-1452753012_thumb.

 

Not sure were I got these examples but appears to be a 116" WB

post-113706-0-93948900-1452753014_thumb.

 

The following 2 examples are 1927 DB 

post-113706-0-00246600-1452753011_thumb.

post-113706-0-57748800-1452753010_thumb.

 

This is DA-133

post-113706-0-08861000-1452753522_thumb.

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  D-237361 was the last truck made in Detroit according to the serial guide so either it took nearly two years to produce 6,000 trucks or the production ended before 1931 and the serial number guide is off. It'd be neat to see some build records or sales paperwork from some late E and S serial number trucks to compare to the D numbers I have seen so far.

 

 

 

Eric

 

In regards to those two points I've highlighted:

 

"IF" it's true and we can find proof that the serial guide was off then that would mean my truck D231751 would be one of the last produced in Detroit as mine was produced March 11th 1930.

 

Build cards are vital to answering some of these questions but unfortunately, very few are willing to share that info in regards to there own trucks. I've personally reached out to many DB and GB owners but only 3 have responded with build card data. Two of which have post's on this thread... Without more important it's very difficult to further our work as researchers.

 

Good luck,

Dave

Edited by 30DodgePanel (see edit history)

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I spotted another forum member that posted in another thread about Graham Brothers talking about numbers in a Red Book. I contacted him directly and he shared the pages from a 1929 and 1933 edition. Thanks TG57Roadmaster.

Based on this data they kept building trucks, but in very very small number until 1932. In some plants as little as 50 a year. This leads me to wonder if they were selling off old inventory? I can't see keeping parts around to make 53 trucks in a year in Stockton or 52 trucks a year in Evansville. Of course these numbers are from a third party and might be wrong, but they are the only numbers I've seen that break down the 1928-1932 era. For some reason the 1930 numbers are not clear. All the numbers listed look like Detroit numbers 221142, 218623, 221339, 220380, etc, but they don't have the D in front and there are different numbers depending on the model. None of the numbers are low enough to be E or S.

 

The books show:

 

1929

E-133097

S-109835

D-175590

 

1931

E-151050

S- 116045

D-235758

 

1932

E-151192

S-116098

D-236959

 

The serial guide shows the final production numbers to be:

 

E-151191

S-116399

D-237361

 

Merchant Express

1929

P1001

1930

P3488

1932

P8184

 

Eric

Edited by Eric B. (see edit history)

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Lots of information on the frame numbers series for different model trucks on these covers.

I found these at Faxons web site. They interesting stuff. Sad to say image was very poor.

Shows GB "D" series frame sequence #'s for 1, 1 1/2, and 2 ton trucks. The 3 ton DB did not have #'s.

We can see Detroit produced 1 ton trucks for export

post-113706-0-09346500-1452878796_thumb.post-113706-0-16512400-1452879413_thumb.post-113706-0-11790100-1452879440_thumb.

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I spotted another forum member that posted in another thread about Graham Brothers talking about numbers in a Red Book. I contacted him directly and he shared the pages from a 1929 and 1933 edition. Thanks TG57Roadmaster.

Based on this data they kept building trucks, but in very very small number until 1932. In some plants as little as 50 a year. This leads me to wonder if they were selling off old inventory? I can't see keeping parts around to make 53 trucks in a year in Stockton or 52 trucks a year in Evansville. Of course these numbers are from a third party and might be wrong, but they are the only numbers I've seen that break down the 1928-1932 era. For some reason the 1930 numbers are not clear. All the numbers listed look like Detroit numbers 221142, 218623, 221339, 220380, etc, but they don't have the D in front and there are different numbers depending on the model. None of the numbers are low enough to be E or S.

 

The books show:

 

 

1931

 

D-235758

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Eric, look at your 3/4 ton book. Notice D221339 is the beginning effective # or "Beginning Frame" #s for the 1930 124"WB trucks

 

So, my questions would be :

What models are the other numbers for in that underlined sentence ?

 Is D235758 the beginning number for 31 trucks or the final number, if so what model was that model of truck if you can tell us?

 

What exact publication did TG57Roadmaster pull that information from or was it pulled from various sources ? Just curious..

Edited by 30DodgePanel (see edit history)

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I emailed you the pages yesterday. The books were the 1929 edition and 1933 edition of RED BOOK NATL MARKET REPORTS-OFFICIAL USED CAR VALUATIONS.

 

Later copies can be had on eBay for $10-$20. I doubt any edition past 1940 or possibly earlier includes the Graham Brothers.

 

Eric

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If the Red Books can be validated then these numbers are a huge find !

 

 

According to these numbers there would have been 14419 Detroit built 124" wb trucks in 1930.

Am I correct in that assumption ?

 

Keep in mind there were 5 models of the E series 124" trucks built that year, the stakeside, screenside, canopy, express and panel. Divided by 5 gives an approximate total of 2883 of each model produced that year.

post-112232-0-65304000-1452970759_thumb.

Edited by 30DodgePanel (see edit history)

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Thanks for information Eric. Lots of information on these sheets.

Page 339 shows the "E" series listed under 1932-six with the 124 WB. This should be a DA-124.

I noticed no reference to the DA series of the "E" trucks. Only reference to my 3/4 ton truck is a DE.listed under 1929-six.

 

My 29 DB DA-120 is identical to my DE except it has a more streamlined reflector headlite. The DE has bucket type headlites of the late 20's design.They were selling trucks with available parts. The attached "Service Record" or some call "Build Card" shows April 1930 date.

post-113706-0-03753900-1452981946_thumb.

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Page 339 shows the "E" series listed under 1932-six with the 124 WB. This should be a DA-124.

I noticed no reference to the DA series of the "E" trucks.

 

 

 

 

Sherman,

Keep in mind the U124 and the DA124 would have both been baked into those numbers. It does not break it down by the engineering code like the MPB does. So the numbers D221339 to D235758 for instance for 30 to 31 models were for both the 4 cyl and 6 cyl's combined.

 

I would imagine all other trucks are based off of WB also and may not show other engine options throughout the red books.

 

Incredible missing link that many of us truck guys have been needing.

Edited by 30DodgePanel (see edit history)

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The thing to do now is track down the 1930, 1931, 1932, 1934, 1935, 1936, 1937 editions and see if there is any additional information. Then track down other publications of the same type. These books are pretty plentiful on eBay. I'm sure a post in the general section of this site could net pages from several of those books. Hopefully once some good third party data has been established something factory will pop up or come to mind that will confirm it.

 

The serial numbers on the parts books are less clear. Yes they are theoretically the starting numbers for those models and engines, but since the numbers in that era cover all models unlike the 1930 and later stuff where there is one serial number range per size class or per series there is no way to know if the next truck after the one listed on the front of the parts books was also of that model or of a totally different model. The real issue with the parts books is to see if it helps define when different models were introduced in each year. My current theory is that the parts books serials will only end up defining what trucks go with the parts listed in the book instead of a year range. The numbers are just not consistent enough. If all the books from the same period had the same starting number we could start to guess that was the year break. As they are slightly different for each model and engine my guess is those numbers are only useful to get in the ballpark. They won't give the exact break for the year. But that is my guess based on what I have seen so far of this early stuff. Records were clearly not kept very well back then or they weren't transferred well when Chrysler took over.

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Eric have you contacted Chrysler Historical Service ,Danielle maybe able to help .? Info and email is same used to get build cards .

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