Selling a title - is it legal?

[vermontboy]

There are jobs, both private sector and government, where not reporting a violation of the rules by others is considered complicity and treated as such. I have seen some honest hard workers fired over the years for not understanding that silence can be construed as aiding and abetting. I feel it's a very high threshold but it is a sobering lesson for those watching the process unfold.

[Curti]

Any perspective employee that would answer those questions that would not be in the favor of the boss is too stupid to hire anyway. Really who thought of those questions? if someone is going to steal,they also are going to lie

 That is a phrase my dad taught me. ' If a person will lie, they will steal' 

[John348]

 That is a phrase my dad taught me. ' If a person will lie, they will steal' 

 

That was my point. Why would anyone answer yes on a job application that they would steal? Did the employer really think that this question filtered out the bad ones?

[Guest]

I was the hiring/firing manager at one of the shops I worked at years ago so I read every application for employment. I remember one particular fellow's application. In the box that said "Reason For Leaving" a former employer, he wrote "Fired for stealing money". I really had a belly laugh over that one! I didn't know if he should be commended for his blatant honesty or chastised for his monumental stupidity. I decided to err on the side of caution and chose not to hire him.

[Dynaflash8]

I bought the car in the picture in 1963 in Virginia, where the title showed the engine number. Fortunately, it was the original engine.  Virginia had used engine numbers at the time the car was new, and I don't know when they stopped doing that.   I lived in Maryland, the most difficult title state you can imagine.  They refused to issue a title with the engine number on it, and instead assigned me a "home built" serial number and plate.  I never put the plate on the car, but carried it in the glove box.  The firewall plate had a hole drilled in the middle of it for a heater hose.  I thought the serial number plate was there, so I had told them it was destroyed.  Well, in 1978 I began a full restoration of the car.  While it was apart I discovered the serial number on the frame rail near the battery location.  So, I took a picture of the engine number and the serial number plate and went to the DMV.  No way would they change the number and issue me a new title.  I went round and round through the supervisory chain of command with the answer no repeated all the way up the line.  So, I sat down and wrote a letter to the top man in the Maryland DMV.  I explained that I was restoring the car and I wanted the authentic serial number on my registration.  I guess he was called the Commissioner of DMV; I don't remember.  Soon I got a phone call from his office asking me to come down and bring the pictures.  I did that and he had me meet with his Deputy, and I was issued a new title and asked to turn in the temporary plate.  End of story.  Sometimes, if you have a reasonable approach to a reasonable problem and you go to the top guy, you can get action.  I say sometimes, because I tried that with DIRECT TV in an effort to get their new receiver that can record 5 channels at one time instead of two at both of my houses, and all I could get was a $100 settlement, but no second receiver.

 

By the way, another problem with Maryland titles, is that at least until WWII if a car was bought new before Jan 1, the title was issued as the year when the car was sold.  For example you could have a 1941 Buick and the title would say 1940 Buick.  Originally it said "N40" and later when their was an information conversion it became "1940".  Evidently the same was true in Virginia at the time, because a friend bought a 1940 Plymouth and the title said 1939 Plymouth.  He didn't have too much of a problem as alll he had to do was have a State Trooper come out and verify the numbers.  In Florida if you bring in a car from out of state you have to drive it down to DMV so they can inspect the numbers against the title.  However, if it doesn't drive, or like in my case you move into state with five old cars, you can get a State Trooper to come out and check the serial number.  That was difficult on the 1935 Buick as I couldn't find the serial number.  An expert told me it was on the frame rail under the right front fender and I found it for the State Trooper.

Edited January 9, 2016 by Dynaflash8 (see edit history)

[smithbrother]

YES, YES, YES, some did lie, but until you have read hundreds of apps , and seen some of the answers YOU can't say it didn't filter out some.  Many of those, looked like future good employees UNTIL you read their answers.  The stupid part would have been for us to disregard the answers.

 

YOU and I can debate whether the test was stupid, but the results it provided were very helpful. 

 

The Company is VERY SUCCESSFUL, hard to argue that, great people to work with, but honesty was/is key, sure it didn't/won't filter out ALL, but, as I have stated it was/is very helpful.

 

 

Dale in Indy

[emjay]

I received a reply (see below) from PA DMV.  It's bit odd that the response mostly focused on the titling of a vehicle made from parts but the link is really the process of rebuilding a totaled vehicle.  I also asked about re-titling an original vehicle found with no paperwork or history.  It was good news and bad news.  The response did not say that there was no way it could be done, but expect some cases to be more difficult than others.

 

It still appears that most anything can be titled, but the key is to try to get to the right person and let them go through the steps and most will probably only cost a couple hundred dollars.  It still is better than trying to use another vehicle title and VIN, which you'll still have to go through many of the same steps unless you are buying the title from the rightful owner, which is unlikely, but was in the original poster's case.

 

Thank you for contacting PennDOT’s Driver and Vehicle Services.

 

In regard to vehicles assembled from collected parts, please follow the instructions presented on the Specially Constructed Vehicle Titling Procedure Fact Sheet, located here: Download.  This fact sheet is also available from a notary, messenger service, or automobile club in Pennsylvania (PA).

 

An enhanced vehicle safety inspection must be performed by an enhanced vehicle safety inspection station. A list of these stations can be found on our website with this link, Enhanced Vehicle Safety Inspection Stations. A PA enhanced safety inspector will complete form MV-426B and affix a portion of a valid PA certification of inspection to the application form. Four color photos (front, rear and both sides) of the vehicle prior to titling are required to be submitted with the application. Also, four color photos (front, rear and both sides) of the specially constructed vehicle are required to be signed and dated by the examining mechanic and included with the completed form MV-426B.

 

The fees associated are as follows:

 

Title fee:  $51

Lien fee, if applicable: $24

Registration fee: $36 for passenger vehicles, $60 and up for trucks

Plate transfer fee, if applicable: $9

Sales tax, if applicable: 6%, 7% or 8% based on where you reside in PA

 

Please note that registration cannot be issued, and the vehicle cannot be driven, until the application is processed.

 

In regard to vehicles located with no knowledge of their titled owner, we cannot give a general answer to that, as it could vary. 

 

*If/when responding, please include all previous e-mail and do not send attachments, as these cannot be opened or processed at this location.

 

Thank you for your inquiry,

Lloyd Irving

Pennsylvania Department of Transportation

www.dmv.pa.gov

[vermontboy]

That Penn Dot MV4268 form will give you a lot of information on what "may vary".  Read it in it's entirety. Will be interested to see what you find out in going through the process,

[Restorer32]

Good luck! When you actually try to go thru the process in PA you will find that it is impossible to title a vehicle that does not possess a tltle now unless you hire a lawyer and eventually get a "Court Directed Title". Figure about $750 and 6-12 months. A car put together from parts, if you can get it titled, will be issued a "Specially Constructed" title, which might be the kiss of death should you ever try to sell the vehicle. My Brother went thru the process 2 years ago to obtain a good title for a 1949 Triumph 1800 (Serial #1 by the way). It isn't easy.

[Restorer32]

The PennDot MV 4268 gives no info whatsoever on how to title a vehicle in PA that does not currently have a title or Certificate of Origin. There is no form in PA that does deal with the question, to my knowledge.

[Guest Roj]

A guy may be lucky enough to come by one 53 vette title in his life( if he looked high and low for years) but 10 .

Come on this isn't third grade recess, make you bs at least a little bit believe able

He gets 53 Chevy titles, not 53 corvette titles......

067 vin tag bought via ebay for 8,000 and mates with body in Illinois for $10,000. 53 chevy title purchased

car 3886 via 54 somehow converts to 53 number 153, has title and makes a vin 153. By the way car was pennant blue.

245 car tag made, purchased title from NCRS long time member frame stamped, vin tag made.

Would you like me to continue with the BS or would you like to talk to a lawyer and he prove it to you!

People who forge cars are smarter then that. Some people like this guy, I have no problem with that, he has talent, he uses buying titles as a way to make money. I find it wrong, but I also keep my cars and enjoy driving them. If you like him great, if you want to buy a car from him great, just don't try and sell it to me.

[46 woodie]

I just read the PA Form and I can see the confusion. The first part states that  a "specially constructed vehicle" is one that is "not originally constructed under a distinctive name, make, model etc". Well, aren't we trying to register Ford's Chevy's etc? It then goes on to require proof of ownership such as a "PA Certificate of Title or salvage, Certificate of Title from another State, Manufacturers Statement of Origin and Bill of Sale. If you have a PA Certificate of Title why do I need this form? I decided to give my friend Dave a call. David has restored several cars and lives just outside Harrisburg, PA. He told me " I don't care what the state of PA tells people, it is just about impossible to Title a car in PA that does not already have a Title of some sort". Dave went on to say "believe me, I have tried it and even with reams of paperwork and $2000 attorneys fees it was denied", "don't waste your time with the paperwork"! I fully understand why people purchase Titles at flea markets.

[46 woodie]

Roj, I can see your point. My 1960 Corvette, that I purchased from the original owner and I know is legit, is registered in the State of New York as a 1960 Chevrolet, not Corvette. I have never had any issues with my insurance, they know it is a Corvette or the DMV.

[Restorer32]

No disrespect to your friend David but it is possible to get a "Court Directed" title in PA but it takes a sharp attorney and patience. As I stated above my Brother accomplished just such a deed 2 years ago. There is an attorney in Harrisburg who specializes in the process. Bro ended up with a perfectly clear PA title but it cost about $750 and took more than 6 months. Other than that David is correct. There is NO other method to obtain a legal transferable title to a car in PA. PA's attitude is that even though you may be in possession of a car without a title you don't OWN that car because ownership is conveyed only by title and unless you legally OWN the car you can't get a title. Buyer beware.

[John348]

He gets 53 Chevy titles, not 53 corvette titles......

067 vin tag bought via ebay for 8,000 and mates with body in Illinois for $10,000. 53 chevy title purchased

car 3886 via 54 somehow converts to 53 number 153, has title and makes a vin 153. By the way car was pennant blue.

245 car tag made, purchased title from NCRS long time member frame stamped, vin tag made.

Would you like me to continue with the BS or would you like to talk to a lawyer and he prove it to you!

People who forge cars are smarter then that. Some people like this guy, I have no problem with that, he has talent, he uses buying titles as a way to make money. I find it wrong, but I also keep my cars and enjoy driving them. If you like him great, if you want to buy a car from him great, just don't try and sell it to me.

 

I am not doubting what you are saying, but I am pretty sure that there is a letter in the serial number or "VIN" that designates the model line of the vehicle in 53 it is "A" for a 150, "B" for a 210, "C"for a Bel Air and "E" for a Corvette, maybe I am wrong? but if I were laying that kind of money down on a car that has a known reputation as being messed with (like Corvettes) I think I would be getting a closer look at the details to confirm things. 

In my opinion to be playing around with numbers and paperwork with such a small production of cars seems to be asking for trouble, the circle is just that small.

[CarlLaFong]

Hi,

I used to be a Mustang freak and just came across the title and VIN plate from a '65 coupe I owned that was a total wreck. The remains were parted out and all that exists of the car now is the plate and title from 1981, with just 6,000 miles on it.

Is it legal in NJ to sell a title and VIN plate?

Anything else I should know?

Thanks guys.

 

 

I can't imagine why it would be illegal to sell or buy. Using it to title another car is absolutely illegal

Wow. Not to yank my own chain but I think I gave the correct answer in post #3. Now we're well into 5 pages of anecdotal stories of counterfeit Corvettes and the associated horrors of tampering with ID plates and spurious titles.

Alien abductions and Bigfoot sightings are but a few pages away

[Dwight Romberger]

I heard of a 1954 Corvette white on white convertible that was abducted by aliens.

 

They returned it because they could get it registered on their planet without the title.

Edited January 11, 2016 by Dwight Romberger (see edit history)

[padgett]

I heard of a 1954 Jaguar white on red convertible that was abducted by aliens.

They returned it because they could not get it started.

[Matt Harwood]

[JACK M]

Big foot regularly walks across my property to admire my parts cars. I think he is on his way to visit the crazy lady that lives in the woods behind me.

[John348]

Big foot regularly walks across my property to admire my parts cars. I think he is on his way to visit the crazy lady that lives in the woods behind me.

 

 the crazy lady, she could work at the DMV?

[Guest]

 the crazy lady, she could work at the DMV?

[JACK M]

Quite possible.

But I don't think she would clean up very well.

Maybe a job opening for big foot. Get him off of the streets.

[John348]

Quite possible.

But I don't think she would clean up very well.

Maybe a job opening for big foot. Get him off of the streets.

 

In NYS downstate DMV offices I don't think it would matter if they clean up, I think Bigfoot is a supervisor here because nobody ever see's them, but they are sure he (or she) exist's....... somewhere  

[Matt Harwood]

There was a show a few years ago (I can't even recall what it was called) where the main character was a human employee of the devil or something. His interface between our world and Hell was the DMV.

 

It all makes sense now.

[cheezestaak2000]

i'm not sure about 1981, but cars with the 16 digit vin numbers have that number stamped in multiple locations and they must match. also some states require police anti theft units to inspect cars with questionable titles.

[john2dameron]

Years ago I traded in a Chevrolet Impala convertible.  I was told by the dealer that they sold the car and it got destroyed in a wreck.  Ten or so years later I got a phone call from a man that claimed that he had bought the car and the title was still registered to me.  B.S.  Wanted me to sign the title over to him.  I told him I did not sell a car to him and I was not getting involved.  I think he was trying to scam someone.

[John348]

I had a similar situation, did you sell the car with an "open" title or registration? I will never do that again just fill in the seller part and not fill in the buyer part. and ALWAY'S I MEAN ALWAY'S MAKE A COPY OF THE SIGNED TITLE AND KEEP IT IN A SAFE PLACE!!!!

[redsshed77]

just scrap every car without a title and see whats left.

some people think everyone is conspiring against them.oh the car must be stolen if he swapped tags.

most old cars tags are just screwed on.hell c1 corvettes are screwed,yes screwed on door jam.

hell ive been driving my gmc for 8 years and there is not a vin on it.it was on the floor from factory and lost.does that mean my trucks useless and i can put a new tag on it? its the sketchy people that will think i made up the numbers.....

 

all were trying to do is register a vehicle,the state (ma)wont do anything without a title.no exceptions.unless its accompied with reg from non title state.still not easy.

 

i say what you have to do. sell the mustang title,someone wants it.hell they need it

[Guest Roj]

Guys, 6 pages ago it was about intent, if someone wants to make a fake car and fool someone into buying it, they are out there. If you want a bookmark of a memory, then buy one. People will sell titles until the end of time. I personally would love to have an old Dues. title, I can't own an original car, but think a title would be neat. It's the guys that buy titles for the purpose of making lots of MONEY by fooling people that should be strung up.

[Guest Roj]

OK guys on ebay right now, a vin tag for a 1955 corvette for sale for $2,500. How much you want to bet it goes on a car and poof you now have a 55.

Has it been done before, absolutely, will it be done again, yep. Who ever buys 067 of 1953 that is a corvette, yes the tag is real, that's it!!!

People are at least out in the open about it..........................

Just wanted to show some guys proof this is happening, people earlier thought I might be bull........, this is a very real problem.

[Guest Rp1967]

No I thought one guy doing 10 1953 vettes as you stated. Was bull