Selling a title - is it legal?

[Dynaflash8]

Back in the 1970s I purchased a 1951 Buick Special from the elderly lady in Baltimore who bought it new.  The VIN number was affixed to the cowl with screws.  DMV questioned it and found out that no type of rivit was used at that time.  Now, my 39 Buicks have the VIN number on the chassis rail near the battery, and a '35 Buick I once owned had it under the right front fender on the frame.  So, it is possible there was a second VIN number on that '51 Buick down on the frame and I didn't know it, but it is also possible that GM had only recently moved it to the firewall and hadn't thought much about it.  I don't know.

[Guest Roj]

It's about money and ethics. Selling a title for someone who collects titles because of a memory is not wrong. If you have bad intentions, yes it's wrong and illegal, but as we look around, there are good guys and ......

I came to this forum because guys truly love there cars, and that is what it is about. Help each other with issues on there cars and gain some friends, isn't that what it's all about.

[benjamin j]

Re stamping  blocks frames or anything else does nothing when manufactures records don’t jive with the vin. I have asked for and been given factory records on several GM cars that I provided the vin number for.  Even oldsmobile museum has a lot of the factory records and will take the time to verify vins.  

[60FlatTop]

Back to the original question, I think it really depends on the way one is going to display the item. In a picture frame with the title and VIN plate on a nice matted background it's probably OK. If the VIN plate is screwed to a car and the title is folded in a wallet or glove box, probably not.

 

It's kind of like a New York State thing called the LLC Loophole (Google it) where politicians get large multiple donations and claim not to have a clue where the money came from. Since I was 6 or 7 years old I've had a pretty good idea if what I was doing was right or wrong. It didn't take me very long to figure out if I thought I was doing something wrong and asked about it.... I was. At some point I knew it was better just to do and not ask. It's easier that way.

Bernie

[padgett]

Think lawyers, salesmen, and politicos are the nattural butt of jokes. My favorite is "the only honest politician is one who stays bought".

[28 Chrysler]

I have a car that are titled with the motor number.  If I put the motor in another car that has a title using the body number, technically I could have two different  titles for one car. By some of the comments above I could be committing a crime by switching a car's serial number.

[Matt Harwood]

I have a car that are titled with the motor number.  If I put the motor in another car that has a title using the body number, technically I could have two different  titles for one car. By some of the comments above I could be committing a crime by switching a car's serial number.

 

What is your intent? If your intent was to take a car without a title and switch the numbers around so you can use another car's VIN plate and title, then yes, you're committed a crime.

 

If you've swapped an engine into a car that already has a title because you wanted to swap the engine and you aren't trying to title it by using that engine number, you have not committed a crime.

 

Selling an old title for $450 is not a crime, but I bet the guy paying $450 for an old title is about to commit one...

[emjay]

Actually the DMV is not as difficult to work with as some think.  It does take patience and persistence and a few fees here and there.  Breaking it down, first the main purpose of a title is proof of ownership.  Official titles take the questions out of any arguments.  Second it's protection to the buyer that a manufacturer actually made this car and meets the standards of the day.  Simply selling the title to someone will not be official.  At some point it would have to be transferred to the new owner and the state issues a new title.  At that point both parties can fraudulently represent the current vehicle as a different one.  The problem comes when it may be sold to a third party.  However, if there is full disclosure, is there a problem?  If it was stolen then someone is trying to cover the trail.  If it's not stolen and is just a case of someone trying to restore some abandoned hulk (proven not to be stolen), there is really no reason to switch VINs.  There is a process to create titles for vehicles.  This process maintains the disclosure.  For years bringing cars in from out of state went through the process.  Re-construction process requires some original VIN is used but also requires a final mechanical inspection to ensure road-worthiness.   This last process won't fit well for someone "recreating" a vehicle by acquiring a frame here, some axles over there, etc.  It's more appropriate for current vehicles.  By and large I don't see too many cases these days where someone is putting a car together by gather pieces and hardly would be possible with anything but a very old vehicle.  Perhaps for such instances The DMV process could be more accommodating considering the intent, which is a hobby car, but it is possible and should give some future buyer full disclosure.

 

Or does it?  Back in the Eighties my father went through the process of creating a title for is 24 Ford which had been modified into a farm tractor.  The only thing left was the frame, front axle and engine/transmission.  By using the engine number, he got PA to issue him a title after many back and forths.  I just transferred it into my name and it looks like a normal title.  I don't know how difficult it is today, but I'm sure if you just stick with it and be patient, you can re-title.  Of course older cars are easier since identification systems were far from standard.  However, there should be a way to title a thirty or forty year old vehicle where the title is lost.  I've seen ads for such services with a $300 price tag.  High? perhaps but may be worth it.  I'm sure the process is mostly verifying that nothing is stolen.  Most of the databases don't go back that far so what can they search?  

 

Recently I scrapped a rusty hulk that I had received from my neighbor (25 years ago) that had just purchased a junkyard.  He offered it to me for free and asked that I just don't leave it on the street some day.  We both assumed that the previous owner of the the junkyard certified it as junk.  Knowing I needed a title to scrap it now I relayed the story to the DMV requesting direction.  I got the standard reply, pay the fee to learn the last owner of record and then ask them to sign off on the process to send a new copy of the title.  They wouldn't even check to see if it was either already junk status of that it was even in the system.  That was by email.  In person may have gone better.  I've heard that police can verify some of that for you.  However, the recycler said he is covered if I cut the car in half, which I did.  However, suppose I decided to restore same vehicle and it's either not in the system or the last owner can not be located?  Then it's off to those third party services or some cases you can have someone out of state create a bill of sale and you can bring it in.  You really don't need any old registrations because the state doesn't even look at them.

 

So I've talked around in circles.  My point is there is some need for a way to plead your case to the DMV.  Perhaps there is, you just have to take the time to find it and be patient.  However, I do question whether all process give a later buyer full disclosure of the history, which should be present.

 

BTW, I also transferred my dad's 15 Ford title over to me.  Of course the old antique title looked different than the current ones.  The title indicated that the year of manufacture was 8/8/40.  The notary service advised letting that go until after the titles were transferred.  I did the actual transfer at the DMV and the clerk simply wrote in 15.  That's right all of the titles used only a two digit year.  Not sure where the 8/8/40 came from.  Dad bought the car in 1935 but the clerk noted that it would have been eligible for antique plates in 1940.  Did they have antique plates in PA in 1940?  The clerk only knew that the DMV didn't exist then.   Now that I think of it, that might have been the time he settle back in PA for good.  I think you got the purple plate in 1965 with it's three digit number.

 

When you ask for something that is not normal, some bureaucrats say it can't be done.  Don't quit.  Try someone else.  They may be more helpful, but always do it in person.

[1912Staver]

I have a 1918 McLaughlin  E - 6 - 45. It has a McLaughlin motors tag with a serial #. It is a somewhat flimsy aluminum tag that nails to the floorboards near the shift lever, and is often missing or badly corroded on several of the McLaughlin's I have seen. There is the standard brass oval Buick frame number tag attached to the LH. front frame horn. These are also often missing as they are secured with very small screws or rivets which corrode away to the point of letting the tag fall off.  Finally there is the Buick engine number; this is in large font , distinctly stamped into the aluminum crankcase.

  All 3 numbers are different right from the factory, and any one of them might be the number the car is registered by.  In the case of these cars the engine number is the one that is most likely to survive {the only one of the 3 that is stamped right in rather than on a tag}, but it is also the one most likely to be replaced over the service life of the car.

  All of this can give the 21 st century restorer trouble. Try telling a DMV. employee there are 3 serial numbers but none of them are ever the same.

 

Greg in Canada

[Restorer32]

Actually the DMV is not as difficult to work with as some think.  It does take patience and persistence and a few fees here and there.  Breaking it down, first the main purpose of a title is proof of ownership.  Official titles take the questions out of any arguments.  Second it's protection to the buyer that a manufacturer actually made this car and meets the standards of the day.  Simply selling the title to someone will not be official.  At some point it would have to be transferred to the new owner and the state issues a new title.  At that point both parties can fraudulently represent the current vehicle as a different one.  The problem comes when it may be sold to a third party.  However, if there is full disclosure, is there a problem?  If it was stolen then someone is trying to cover the trail.  If it's not stolen and is just a case of someone trying to restore some abandoned hulk (proven not to be stolen), there is really no reason to switch VINs.  There is a process to create titles for vehicles.  This process maintains the disclosure.  For years bringing cars in from out of state went through the process.  Re-construction process requires some original VIN is used but also requires a final mechanical inspection to ensure road-worthiness.   This last process won't fit well for someone "recreating" a vehicle by acquiring a frame here, some axles over there, etc.  It's more appropriate for current vehicles.  By and large I don't see too many cases these days where someone is putting a car together by gather pieces and hardly would be possible with anything but a very old vehicle.  Perhaps for such instances The DMV process could be more accommodating considering the intent, which is a hobby car, but it is possible and should give some future buyer full disclosure.

 

Or does it?  Back in the Eighties my father went through the process of creating a title for is 24 Ford which had been modified into a farm tractor.  The only thing left was the frame, front axle and engine/transmission.  By using the engine number, he got PA to issue him a title after many back and forths.  I just transferred it into my name and it looks like a normal title.  I don't know how difficult it is today, but I'm sure if you just stick with it and be patient, you can re-title.  Of course older cars are easier since identification systems were far from standard.  However, there should be a way to title a thirty or forty year old vehicle where the title is lost.  I've seen ads for such services with a $300 price tag.  High? perhaps but may be worth it.  I'm sure the process is mostly verifying that nothing is stolen.  Most of the databases don't go back that far so what can they search?  

 

Recently I scrapped a rusty hulk that I had received from my neighbor (25 years ago) that had just purchased a junkyard.  He offered it to me for free and asked that I just don't leave it on the street some day.  We both assumed that the previous owner of the the junkyard certified it as junk.  Knowing I needed a title to scrap it now I relayed the story to the DMV requesting direction.  I got the standard reply, pay the fee to learn the last owner of record and then ask them to sign off on the process to send a new copy of the title.  They wouldn't even check to see if it was either already junk status of that it was even in the system.  That was by email.  In person may have gone better.  I've heard that police can verify some of that for you.  However, the recycler said he is covered if I cut the car in half, which I did.  However, suppose I decided to restore same vehicle and it's either not in the system or the last owner can not be located?  Then it's off to those third party services or some cases you can have someone out of state create a bill of sale and you can bring it in.  You really don't need any old registrations because the state doesn't even look at them.

 

So I've talked around in circles.  My point is there is some need for a way to plead your case to the DMV.  Perhaps there is, you just have to take the time to find it and be patient.  However, I do question whether all process give a later buyer full disclosure of the history, which should be present.

 

BTW, I also transferred my dad's 15 Ford title over to me.  Of course the old antique title looked different than the current ones.  The title indicated that the year of manufacture was 8/8/40.  The notary service advised letting that go until after the titles were transferred.  I did the actual transfer at the DMV and the clerk simply wrote in 15.  That's right all of the titles used only a two digit year.  Not sure where the 8/8/40 came from.  Dad bought the car in 1935 but the clerk noted that it would have been eligible for antique plates in 1940.  Did they have antique plates in PA in 1940?  The clerk only knew that the DMV didn't exist then.   Now that I think of it, that might have been the time he settle back in PA for good.  I think you got the purple plate in 1965 with it's three digit number.

 

When you ask for something that is not normal, some bureaucrats say it can't be done.  Don't quit.  Try someone else They may be more helpful, but always do it in person.

You find that your scenario of generating a title for a car in PA no longer works. The ONLY way that works in PA now is to pay a lawyer and petition the courts for a "Court Directed Title". Figure $5-700 and 6 months to a year of legal fiddling around.

[John348]

Actually the DMV is not as difficult to work with as some think.  It does take patience and persistence and a few fees here and there.  Breaking it down, first the main purpose of a title is proof of ownership.  Official titles take the questions out of any arguments.  Second it's protection to the buyer that a manufacturer actually made this car and meets the standards of the day.  Simply selling the title to someone will not be official.  At some point it would have to be transferred to the new owner and the state issues a new title.  At that point both parties can fraudulently represent the current vehicle as a different one.  The problem comes when it may be sold to a third party.  However, if there is full disclosure, is there a problem?  If it was stolen then someone is trying to cover the trail.  If it's not stolen and is just a case of someone trying to restore some abandoned hulk (proven not to be stolen), there is really no reason to switch VINs.  There is a process to create titles for vehicles.  This process maintains the disclosure.  For years bringing cars in from out of state went through the process.  Re-construction process requires some original VIN is used but also requires a final mechanical inspection to ensure road-worthiness.   This last process won't fit well for someone "recreating" a vehicle by acquiring a frame here, some axles over there, etc.  It's more appropriate for current vehicles.  By and large I don't see too many cases these days where someone is putting a car together by gather pieces and hardly would be possible with anything but a very old vehicle.  Perhaps for such instances The DMV process could be more accommodating considering the intent, which is a hobby car, but it is possible and should give some future buyer full disclosure.

 

Or does it?  Back in the Eighties my father went through the process of creating a title for is 24 Ford which had been modified into a farm tractor.  The only thing left was the frame, front axle and engine/transmission.  By using the engine number, he got PA to issue him a title after many back and forths.  I just transferred it into my name and it looks like a normal title.  I don't know how difficult it is today, but I'm sure if you just stick with it and be patient, you can re-title.  Of course older cars are easier since identification systems were far from standard.  However, there should be a way to title a thirty or forty year old vehicle where the title is lost.  I've seen ads for such services with a $300 price tag.  High? perhaps but may be worth it.  I'm sure the process is mostly verifying that nothing is stolen.  Most of the databases don't go back that far so what can they search?  

 

Recently I scrapped a rusty hulk that I had received from my neighbor (25 years ago) that had just purchased a junkyard.  He offered it to me for free and asked that I just don't leave it on the street some day.  We both assumed that the previous owner of the the junkyard certified it as junk.  Knowing I needed a title to scrap it now I relayed the story to the DMV requesting direction.  I got the standard reply, pay the fee to learn the last owner of record and then ask them to sign off on the process to send a new copy of the title.  They wouldn't even check to see if it was either already junk status of that it was even in the system.  That was by email.  In person may have gone better.  I've heard that police can verify some of that for you.  However, the recycler said he is covered if I cut the car in half, which I did.  However, suppose I decided to restore same vehicle and it's either not in the system or the last owner can not be located?  Then it's off to those third party services or some cases you can have someone out of state create a bill of sale and you can bring it in.  You really don't need any old registrations because the state doesn't even look at them.

 

So I've talked around in circles.  My point is there is some need for a way to plead your case to the DMV.  Perhaps there is, you just have to take the time to find it and be patient.  However, I do question whether all process give a later buyer full disclosure of the history, which should be present.

 

BTW, I also transferred my dad's 15 Ford title over to me.  Of course the old antique title looked different than the current ones.  The title indicated that the year of manufacture was 8/8/40.  The notary service advised letting that go until after the titles were transferred.  I did the actual transfer at the DMV and the clerk simply wrote in 15.  That's right all of the titles used only a two digit year.  Not sure where the 8/8/40 came from.  Dad bought the car in 1935 but the clerk noted that it would have been eligible for antique plates in 1940.  Did they have antique plates in PA in 1940?  The clerk only knew that the DMV didn't exist then.   Now that I think of it, that might have been the time he settle back in PA for good.  I think you got the purple plate in 1965 with it's three digit number.

 

When you ask for something that is not normal, some bureaucrats say it can't be done.  Don't quit.  Try someone else.  They may be more helpful, but always do it in person.

 

Emjay, the DMV you mention must be in the state of bliss, not NYS! Easier to buy the vin and paperwork then to go though all of the bs to get no-where

[Ed Luddy]

As earlier stated by fellow members from Ontario we do not have titles in the province, just registration papers. Probably makes it easier to make a fraud car. The only thing I do like about Ontario GM cars as well as the rest of Canada is the GM Vintage Vehicle Services that will give you a document with a lot of valuable information IF the car was sold new in Canada. Regardless of which country, USA,Canada, or Great Britain or factory GM used to build it.

 Comes in very handy on Corvettes especially, as they seem to be the ones most frequently messed with. I went to look at a 1976 Corvette some years ago a friend bought and was trying to re-sell to me. The VIN was attached upside down and with regular rivets.

 Once we put it up in the air on a hoist I pointed out that it had fiberglass floors, and a factory looking dual exhaust, a'la 1974 body style. Turned out to be a stolen car or some other fraudulent deal, but he got his money back.

 

   Another little item that came on 60's GM cars that had been built in Oshawa with McKinnon supplied engines was a tag in the glovebox with the engine number printed on it (as well as the build date if I remember correctly). Very handy when restoring  or verifying a car.

 

 I recently bought another 1978 Corvette that was sold new here in Ontario from the 2nd owner who has had it since 1979. He tells me it's a numbers match engine, never touched, but couldn't explain the black valve covers instead of blue. Told him I don't really care, as it's a base L48 and I doubt too many other people do either. It needs a new camshaft so I'll find out the scoop in the spring when its warm enough to take it apart.

[emjay]

I suspected it may have gotten more difficult or have the clerks gotten less helpful or informed?  Are there any members in DMV that can confirm what options are available?  Too many people follow the creed "that's not how we usually do it, so it can't be done"  The former doesn't necessarily mean the latter is the only outcome.  The problem is random individuals find themselves pursuing this activity and probably only do it once so there is no centralized information source.  Can the club have any influence?  Identify which states are easier to work with.  Some kind of "buyer take notice" title this vehicle is a collection of unrelated parts that may or may not be appropriate but definitely didn't start life out together and there was no way receipts could be obtained, but it was a lot of fun doing it and driving it.  That would be the American way.  Government/bureaucracy can be overrated.

[Joe in Canada]

I would think that if someone was selling rosette rivets they must be stolen seeing you can not buy them from a distributer. In Canada the RCMP will do a periodic surprise visit to the car assembly plants an do an inventory on the rivet's.

[46 woodie]

emjay, I guess you have never dealt with The New York DMV. Dealing with them for a modern car with all the required paperwork is a nightmare, they could care less. One gentleman I know purchased a body and chassis from someone. It had been in a field for many years and of course no paperwork. He purchased dozens of NOS parts over the years. When it came down to getting a registration for this car it was hell. He literally spent days' at the DMV. He even scheduled and had a meeting with a manager (I can't tell you how hard that was) and got nowhere. This was all because he was an honest guy and went to the DMV with a loose lief book filled with bills of parts that he purchased. The DMV told him they had no merit unless they were all notarized. Can you imagine trying to figure where all the parts came from and then go back and get the bill notarized! After about two months, he gave up and purchased a title and restamped everything. Now don't get me wrong, I know the DMV is trying to protect us from vehicle theft, but there should be some "give and take". 

[benjamin j]

emjay, I guess you have never dealt with The New York DMV. Dealing with them for a modern car with all the required paperwork is a nightmare, they could care less. One gentleman I know purchased a body and chassis from someone. It had been in a field for many years and of course no paperwork. He purchased dozens of NOS parts over the years. When it came down to getting a registration for this car it was hell. He literally spent days' at the DMV. He even scheduled and had a meeting with a manager (I can't tell you how hard that was) and got nowhere. This was all because he was an honest guy and went to the DMV with a loose lief book filled with bills of parts that he purchased. The DMV told him they had no merit unless they were all notarized. Can you imagine trying to figure where all the parts came from and then go back and get the bill notarized! After about two months, he gave up and purchased a title and restamped everything. Now don't get me wrong,  I  know the DMV is trying to protect us from vehicle theft, but there should be some "give and take 

 

 I  know the DMV is trying to protect us from vehicle theft, but they are committing theft every time they get a pay check.   fixed that for ya. 

[emjay]

I understand the process is difficult to impossible, but what is the solution?  We have three pages of people saying it is illegal to swap identity and other presenting real cases where a title is needed with no history. The tide against it is very few people need to go through it compared to the overall applications at the DMV.  Of course to gain an easier process we also have to accept limitations such as a special title and limited use that come with historic plates.  Also a easier process would most likely need an expert intermediary to take the burden off of the DMV.  An AACA representative could be in the position to verify the vehicle in question was fabricate in the spirit of the vehicle it represents.  I find it sad when we allow conditions to degrade so that only lawyers are able to communicate and execute bureaucratic dealings.  But that is where we are.  An analogy is doing your taxes.  We should always be able to readily obtain the rules so that anyone may can follow them.  If only accountants can do taxes, would be a bad situation.  

 

On the other hand perhaps it shouldn't be done.  But why not?   Whether it's a lifetime of collecting parts or restoring a vehicle (partial or whole) that has been abandoned and there are no records.  Some say that when a modern car is reconstructed after the insurance company totals it, it can not be insured for loss again.  Would everyone accept a title that states the vehicle has no value?  That doesn't mean you can't sell it.  It just means the value is whatever the owner/buyer sees in it and derides from it.

 

Now think about the feature car in AACA, maybe last year but I think it was two years ago.  Some one took the remains of a closed car and turned it into an open car in full spirit of an original.  It was a beautiful car.  Was that illegal or legal?  What is it titled as?  What is it valued at?  Sure it's the same marque and year but it is not what it was as manufactured.  Did he have the receipts for all of the bodywork he fabricated?  The man hours spent?

 

I probably should finally learn more about the PA Hotrod plate, because i think that allows a collection of parts and then a road-worthy check.  That might be the easier way, but of course you first need to have some starting title so we are back to building a car that is no longer in the database.  My dad's older titles were not in the system, but we had the originals.  Luckily, the only one missing was the one created in the Eighties and that was still on file, but it still cost a bit to get a new copy.

 

Can anybody that works on the inside (In any state) verify if it's possible or impossible to re-issue or create a title for a vehicle that has no papers?

 

In any case get the title before you spend your time building your dream car.  The $700 lawyer fee may be just another cost.

[padgett]

Here are several solutions but using a title/VIN from one car for another is not it. In Florida there are ways for the state to create a new title/VIN for an assembled or custom car as with a massive restoration that is more new or parts from other cars than from any one car.

Did notice that attempting to swap such can be considered fraud here and a second degree misdeneanor.

ps have spent over a year getting a proper title for a car before but can be done.

Edited January 6, 2016 by padgett (see edit history)

[39BuickEight]

I got a title for my car with little to no paperwork very easily in KY.  They ran the VIN to see it was tagged for any reason and it was not.  The seller gave me a bill of sale and a copy of the bill of sale that he got when he bought it.  Took that to the clerk's office along with requested crayon scrape of the VIN to prove I had the car and I had a title in 30 days clear and in my name.  The old bill of sale didn't even have the vin on it, they used the series/model #, I guess they thought that was the VIN???

[capngrog]

 "the only honest politician is one who stays bought".

 

That paraphrases one of the great lines from one of the greatest movie comedies of all time, "Used Cars".  If you're not familiar with this movie, buy it, rent it, stream it etc., and you'll be in for a good laugh.  It is one of Kurt Russell's earlier (1980) movies and also stars Jack Warden in a fantastic dual role.  It's one of my favorites.  Oh, by the way, here's the quote from the movie: "I'll tell you something. This country is going to the dogs. You know, it used to be when you bought a politician, that son of a bit__ stayed bought'.

 

Just my opinion,

Grog

[John348]

emjay, I guess you have never dealt with The New York DMV. Dealing with them for a modern car with all the required paperwork is a nightmare, they could care less. One gentleman I know purchased a body and chassis from someone. It had been in a field for many years and of course no paperwork. He purchased dozens of NOS parts over the years. When it came down to getting a registration for this car it was hell. He literally spent days' at the DMV. He even scheduled and had a meeting with a manager (I can't tell you how hard that was) and got nowhere. This was all because he was an honest guy and went to the DMV with a loose lief book filled with bills of parts that he purchased. The DMV told him they had no merit unless they were all notarized. Can you imagine trying to figure where all the parts came from and then go back and get the bill notarized! After about two months, he gave up and purchased a title and restamped everything. Now don't get me wrong, I know the DMV is trying to protect us from vehicle theft, but there should be some "give and take". 

 

 

all I can say is.......... NEXT NEXT IN LINE........SIR I TOLD YOU GOT DA WRONG PAPERS..... NEXT.    

[Curti]

It used to be pure hell to get a car titled in Wisconsin. They made crooks out of honest guys . But now things aren't so bad. 

[emjay]

That's a very good policy and makes sense.  Get the title before investing your efforts.  That's what I did in the past when I brought an older car into the state, just get the title and then register it when complete.  I was going to send an inquiry into PA DMV but they changed their website and now you need a title number, plate and VIN just to ask a question.  That like a comedy routine where the phone company continues to reply that the number to request a phone book is in the phone book.  I'll try again tomorrow with the necessary information.

[padgett]

& in Florida make sure it is a clean Florida title. Importing a car can be expensive.

[60FlatTop]

Always license and insure a car as soon as you buy it and before you spend any money on it. Then it is legally yours.

 

If you are old enough to read forums like this and have enough money for an old car you should have the "support contacts" to work around any problems.

 

Then, when entering the Motor Vehicle Department, be sure to present yourself as aged; stoop your shoulders, make yourself a little shorter, shuffle slightly as you walk, and weaken your voice. If you have military memorabilia, like my ship's hat, DD-707, wear it. They will usually try to help an old war vet.

 

I learned some techniques from an older car collector who liked to look down women's blouses at yard sales. He is tall and would tell the ladies he had back problems. He'd ask them to pick up things on thee ground for him to look at closer. You can learn a lot from your elders.

 

When it comes to legal matters take a tip from one of my favorite fictional lawyers:

 

Bernie

[Guest Roj]

The honest person will get the title the right way and have integrity. The guy I mentioned (Brtt Henderson) was a person who wanted to get rich quickly. He has talent as I mentioned, he was able to take a 54 corvette serial number 3886 and make it 153 of 1953. The person who bought it at auction cheap, thought he got a deal and in 20 years, probably did. People will forget, and the car looks like a real car, and unless your very knowledgeable you won't know. He has done it to the point of all 1953 corvettes are suspect of being real. How many times has he done it, at least 10. He produces a numbers matching car which looks like a 53, performs like a 53, has a title of a 53, a made vin number of a 53, so it's a 53.... NO, but a very good fake.

People who have dad's old title and car that is precious to them, but in the scheme of life only worth memories, but not a lot of money, then who cares. The dishonest guy can answer for his actions at the end. He might get rich off of suckers, but is he really rich????????

If you sell a title for the right purpose, then great, if you are trying to fake someone out with it, you'll answer for it someday.

[46 woodie]

If the State of New York (or any other state for that matter) this is what I would suggest. Have a division, with people that are familiar with antique vehicles. You could send them all the information that you have and let them review it. Any questions could be then E-Mailed to you directly and you could establish a connection with this person. They could even have connections with various national car clubs, for a verification of some items. I would not mind paying an additional fee for this service. As it is now, in New York, the people behind the counter at the DMV just do not care. One mistake on any piece of paper and you are out of luck! "You can't correct that here, go to the end of the line"! As John348 said, NEXT IN LINE!! 

[Grimy]

I'd rather have a root canal than go to a California DMV field office on a vintage car title matter.  I'll give an example in a moment.

 

CA DMV does have a "Public Inquiries Unit" in Sacramento available by phone which used to be extremely helpful to car collectors, but that was dependent on the good will of those staffing it--in recent years it has been unhelpful.  What I learned is to ask the Public Inquiries Unit staff for the chapter and verse (i.e., specific paragraph reference) in the Operations Manual that is on every DMV computer in all their field offices.  In attempting to transfer and get Horseless Carriage plates for my 1922 Paige, both the 20-yr-old counter agent and the 60-yr-old supervisor were saying "it can't be done" until I quoted the paragraph given me by the Public Inquiries Unit.  The agent keyed that reference into the computer and the transaction was successfully completed in less than two minutes. 

 

My take is that field office counter personnel are not, and probably should not, be trained in these once-every-few-months issues--BUT there should be someone knowledgeable as a go-to within each field office.

 

My horror story:  I sold my engine-out 1939 Cadillac 75 7-p sedan to a close friend who paid me off over 18 months.  He took possession with it half-paid for and built an engine for it.  I wanted to register it (for the first time in almost 30 yrs) before transferring title to him.  So I went to the local DMV office with the 1968 title in my name and the last (early 1980s) registration, and showed my driver's license (unusual surname--there aren't many of use in the country), and said this car was on hold until I retired and now I am and ready to drive it.  CA DMV drops the records out after four years of non-registration.  Not enough, I had to bring the car in for a serial number verification.  The next day I did so.  The 25-yr-old verifier noted that the serial on the frame matched that on the title and old registration, but insisted on seeing the second number, and could not accept that second serial numbers weren't added until more than 20 yrs after this car was built.  I was referred to the CHP (CA Highway Patrol) verifier.  In trying to make an appointment by phone (soonest was seven weeks out), the (also young-by-voice) verifier assured me that there was a second number and he had the Secret Book of Secret Second Number Locations.  I told him I'd had a few of thee cars off-frame over the years and was confident that there was no such second number.  I suggested that he quickly check for 1939 Cadillacs in his Secret Book to assure us both, and if so, I'd gladly wait the seven weeks.  He would not check the book until I showed up.  At this point I secured the services of a DMV expediter (retired employee), who got the job done in a couple of days for an $80 fee in addition to DMV fees.  Well worth it!

[CarlLaFong]

So...........is it legal to buy or sell a title

[smithbrother]

Roj, would you mind if I call Mr. Henderson, and tell him that you have told the world that he modifies 54 Vettes so that I can claim and sell at a big PROFIT a orginal 1954 as a 1953?

I live just a few miles from his place, and being retired I have the time to do such, do you mind?

Do you think he will welcome my visit, and my knowledge of his TALLENTED work?

Dale in Indy

[John348]

So...........is it legal to buy or sell a title

 

Only if you get caught! 

[28 Chrysler]

It is legal in the U.S. to buy and sell any old documents. A title is no different than old stock certificates, old diplomas, military documents, etc.

It is how they are used that may or may not be legal. 

[JACK M]

Roj, would you mind if I call Mr. Henderson, and tell him that you have told the world that he modifies 54 Vettes so that I can claim and sell at a big PROFIT a orginal 1954 as a 1953?

I live just a few miles from his place, and being retired I have the time to do such, do you mind?

Do you think he will welcome my visit, and my knowledge of his TALLENTED work?

Dale in Indy

 

I suspect that if someone showed up at his door with ideas like that he would soon be moving off the grid.

Someone should string him up by his cahonies.

A blatant rip off.

[Guest Rp1967]

I could be wrong but, I think dale may have been calling BS

[smithbrother]

A person would have to be STUPID, STUPID to let others KNOW what he is up to.

He, 'IF', he is in business, must be a very small Vette guy, nothing shows up under the posted name in Indiana.

Dale in Indy

[Guest Rp1967]

A guy may be lucky enough to come by one 53 vette title in his life( if he looked high and low for years) but 10 .

Come on this isn't third grade recess, make you bs at least a little bit believe able

[Dwight Romberger]

There is a reason why a car without a title sells for a fraction of the same car with a title.  The reason is there are still some honest people in the world.

 

If you think I am calling those of you who sell and buy titles dishonest, please take it personally.

[smithbrother]

I was a key guy in a National Company, we gave prospective employees a test, it determined there ATTITUDE towards HONESTY.

 

One third of those taking the test would either STEAL, or would NOT report someone that did.  Tolerating dishonesty is BAD, that's one of the largest problems in crime infested neighborhoods around this country.  When you know of a crime, and won't report or assist in the capture of the person/persons that committed such , well, THAT' S NOT GOOD.

 

Dale in Indy

[smithbrother]

Before someone ASKS, here are some of the questions:

 

1.  You are working with an employee, and for the last year or so you have known he/she has been stealing $5.00 each day, WOULD YOU REPORT HIM/HER?  YES______  NO___________  NOT SURE ________

 

2.  You know of an employee that hasn't had a raise in a couple years, a long time employee, and he/she decides to remove some property from the work place, WITHOUT PERMISSION, in other words STEAL SUCH, do you think because he/she hasn't had a raise in two years that he/she DESERVES the stuff he/she is taking?  YES ___________  NO__________ NOT SURE _______

 

3.  How many dollars a (month) do you feel an employee should be allowed to remove from the property WITHOUT permission, $1.00, $5.00, $25.00, or NOTHING?  ENTER AMOUNT $_____________ or CIRCLE NOTHING.

 

Soon a pattern would show their attitude towards honesty.

 

Dale in Indy

[John348]

Any perspective employee that would answer those questions that would not be in the favor of the boss is too stupid to hire anyway. Really who thought of those questions? if someone is going to steal,they also are going to lie