Selling a title - is it legal?

[Guest syakoban]

Hi,

I used to be a Mustang freak and just came across the title and VIN plate from a '65 coupe I owned that was a total wreck. The remains were parted out and all that exists of the car now is the plate and title from 1981, with just 6,000 miles on it.

Is it legal in NJ to sell a title and VIN plate?

Anything else I should know?

Thanks guys.

[Guest]

Well, if everyone keeps quiet, the only ones who will know are you as the seller, and the guy who buys it to put on his stolen '65 Mustang.   

[CarlLaFong]

I can't imagine why it would be illegal to sell or buy. Using it to title another car is absolutely illegal

[Restorer32]

It's the intent to defraud that makes it illegal, so the fellow who rivets that VIN onto a car and sells it is the one who had better keep looking over his shoulder.

[redsshed77]

thats how you beat the system

[capngrog]

My guess is that, as others have said, the sale of the title and VIN plate is not in itself illegal, but affixing that plate to another car would be fraud (in my opinion). 

 

As redsshed77 pointed out, such activity is often the only way "to beat the system" especially when there is no intent to defraud.  For example, a few years ago, I bought a homebuilt VW "sandrail" from a friend who needed the money.  This "sandrail" has never been titled nor was it intended to be run on public roadways.  A few years after I bought the "sandrail" a friend offered to me (for free) a VIN plate and a title to a 1966 VW.  If I decided to affix the VIN plate to the "sandrail" and transfer the title to my name for purposes of obtaining a license plate, would that be fraud?  If I subsequently sold the "titled" "sandrail" to another party, would that be fraud?

 

I would appreciate opinions on this.

 

Cheers,

Grog

[Guest Rp1967]

When a car goes to the crusher and no longer exists , the title to said car becomes a piece of meaningless paper.

Like asking if it would be illegal to resell the morning newspaper.

[Guest AlCapone]

I can't imagine why it would be illegal to sell or buy. Using it to title another car is absolutely illegal

What Carl says is 100% correct. Wayne

[28 Chrysler]

On a 65 Mustang the serial number is stamped on the inner left fender in plane sight, that would need to match the paper work.

I have several titles framed with photos of the cars that were scraped.

[Guest]

My guess is that, as others have said, the sale of the title and VIN plate is not in itself illegal, but affixing that plate to another car would be fraud (in my opinion). 

 

As redsshed77 pointed out, such activity is often the only way "to beat the system" especially when there is no intent to defraud.  For example, a few years ago, I bought a homebuilt VW "sandrail" from a friend who needed the money.  This "sandrail" has never been titled nor was it intended to be run on public roadways.  A few years after I bought the "sandrail" a friend offered to me (for free) a VIN plate and a title to a 1966 VW.  If I decided to affix the VIN plate to the "sandrail" and transfer the title to my name for purposes of obtaining a license plate, would that be fraud?  If I subsequently sold the "titled" "sandrail" to another party, would that be fraud?

 

I would appreciate opinions on this.

 

Cheers,

Grog

Grog,

            This question is purely academic and you know what opinions are worth, so....

In your instance, I would say where's the tort? No harm done to anyone involved, no possible repercussion down the road. If I were in the market for a sand rail and you could offer me yours with a title, under those circumstances, I wouldn't hesitate to buy it. I would feel completely comfortable buying a vehicle re-titled in this particular manner. Again, this is just my opinion, others may feel differently.

Greg

[smithbrother]

I wonder WHAT other bad things the person is/has done that is using a purchased title for proof of ownership of a car/truck, when the two don't belong together?

Cheating is CHEATING.

DALE IN INDY

[MCHinson]

I don't know about NJ law but don't try it in NC. NCGS 20-111 includes the following text:  "To give, lend, sell or obtain a certificate of title for the purpose of such certificate being used for any purpose other than the registration, sale, or other use in connection with the vehicle for which the certificate was issued." 

 

 So if you were to do this in NC you could be arrested. I would not be surprised if NJ doesn't also make this a criminal act. You may want to check your local laws before you do that.

 

 

 

 

[padgett]

The sand rail is a good basis for discussion. The question woulld be "How much of the original car would need to be kept for it to be legal ?" The cowl ? The floorpan ?

 

Now in Florida there is a way to title a "homebuilt" and it is assigned a new VIN. This also happens when several totalled cars are use to create a new one but again none of the original titles, VINs, or ID plates are used, the state issues a new ones.

 

Back in the day it was common for an antique car to be restored from a pile of rust and a wheel. Certainly all of the parts needed to build many muscle cars from scratch are available.

 

So I suspect the question is how much of the original properly titled car did you start with ? Obviously the video instructions given by H.B. Halicki exceeds the bounds of legality.

[John348]

Cheating is CHEATING.

DALE IN INDY

 

My Bronx up-bringing taught me, it is only crime when you are caught, now that does not make things right, or I agree with the action but the seller is only selling a vintage piece of paper and a piece of metal. Now if the seller is selling the items with the intent to falsify another vehicle then that becomes a different story.......

 

Did anyone ever wonder how all of these plastic 1932 street rod kit cars are titled as a 1932? 

[Joe in Canada]

There is a fellow here in Ontario that sells (We call them ownerships) at all the swap meets and has catalogues full of them. Then he will send you to a fellow who will make you a new vin plate for some of the ones he can.

Now I do not think either one of them are breaking the law but the guy that registers it is.

[JamesBulldogMiller55Buick]

Well, if everyone keeps quiet, the only ones who will know are you as the seller, and the guy who buys it to put on his stolen '65 Mustang.   

And everyone that reads this after 'googling' "stolen Mustang"

[Restorer32]

A VIN is not just a random series of numbers and letters. The VIN tells law enforcement the make, date of manufacture, engine size etc. There is also a "code" number that, after going thru a series of multiplications, additions and subtractions, has to match a predetermined number. It that calculation does not match the code number law enforcement knows instantly that the number has been tampered with. Proceed at your own risk.

[60FlatTop]

I guess I was pretty young when I learned there were gray areas around the law. My Grandfather who ran the tire shop and car lot was a big influence in those matters. I remember after my Grandmother died he had business cards printed that read "affiliate of MGM Studios". I told him that was illegal. He said "The first time I paid to watch a movie I became affiliated with MGM Studios." He had a point.

As to those gray areas; the older I get, the grayer I get.

Bernie

[46 woodie]

To sell and buy titles is not illegal, there are people that collect them. To purchase one to "defraud" your local DMV is. I have read several articles on this subject and it seems that many people purchase titles because they have run out of options how to register their vehicle. Some stated have very strict laws on how to register a vehicle. One I read about was when this gentleman purchased a "basket case" and had to add many parts that he purchased over the years. His local DMV required so much paperwork and bills of sale on many of the parts, that he could never produce. Every bill of sale had to be notarized and he had no idea where he even purchased some of the parts. He purchased a title at a swop meet and had the car registered the following week. So I can understand the frustration some people have to endure at their local DMV and take the easy way out. These cases are a "grey" area, to title or register an antique car, is that fraud?. To steal a car and change the numbers, yes!

[vermontboy]

The problem lies in states where a physical inspection of the vehicle by the DMV or State Police is required. If they check for the rosette rivets and the "hidden numbers" you will not be able to register the vehicle. In some states if they feel that an ID number has been forged they will confiscate the part / vehicle. This has been reported to be a problem where engine numbers were used for registrations and have been restamped by the rebuilder. It appears to be getting more problematic as time goes by, especially where cars are sold out of state.

[60FlatTop]

Sometimes the laws are very restrictive to honest people. Others, not so much.

[1912Staver]

Many of the cars we are concerned with were built long before the "hidden number" era.  Has anyone even seen a hidden number ? I have been into every part of 60's Mustang body shells and never seen evidence of anything other than the data plate on the door and the two stampings on the R+L inner fender aprons , other than sometimes the shock tower of 69 - 70 C.J. cars.

 

I doubt many 1960 or previous cars had anything other than the obvious firewall plate and a frame and perhaps engine stamp.

 The whole title thing is a major P.I.T.A. for the old car hobby.  It is a major roadblock for the existence of many potentially restorable project cars.  How many cars that have been semi-derelict for 30 or 40 years will still have the title nearly tucked away in the glove box ?

 And the fact that there is no consistency State to State. And when for that matter were titles introduced ?  Many of the true antique cars {1930 and earlier ?} may have not ever had a title in the first place. What does a State DMV do about a 1912 Overland that has been in a farm shed since 1922 ?

 As a Canadian there is much about the Title concept I find mysterious. We don't have them , just provincial registration documents. That is not to say we don't have somewhat similar problems here in Canada with long derelict cars, but it seems they are often easier to solve.

 

Greg in Canada

[Restorer32]

PA had titles at least by 1920.

[Guest Roj]

Guys, it's  just about money!!!!!  I use to have a friend named B. Henderson who lives just north of Indianapolis and he restores early Corvettes.  On many occasions he has re- stamped the frame, had vin tags made and changed titles so he could sell a 1954 corvette which is worth in the 60's for a 1953 corvette worth in the 250,000's.  He has done this no less than 7 or 8 times and takes a restored 54 and modifies it to a 53.  This isn't a rant either, he has made a good living by taking titles and falsifying cars to sell.

 

People who have old titles of scrap cars, which I do have, then no it's not a crime to sell them to another avid collector of titles.  If they are like the guy above, then yes it's a crime and they both should be thrown in jail.  The guy above is one of the guys who shouldn't be in the HOBBY, but he is.  

 

It's about intent, good people help each other, bad people figure out a way to screw people to line there own pockets.

[Joe in Canada]

The problem lies in states where a physical inspection of the vehicle by the DMV or State Police is required. If they check for the rosette rivets and the "hidden numbers" you will not be able to register the vehicle. In some states if they feel that an ID number has been forged they will confiscate the part / vehicle. This has been reported to be a problem where engine numbers were used for registrations and have been restamped by the rebuilder. It appears to be getting more problematic as time goes by, especially where cars are sold out of state.

The rosette rivets are plentiful in the market for switching tags. Did the older cars have screws to hold the vin plate in place.

Edited January 4, 2016 by Joe in Canada (see edit history)

[Guest Roj]

The rosette rivets are plentiful in the market for switching tags. Did the older cars have screws to hold the vin plate in place.

Early corvettes have 2 screws, it takes about 1 minute to do the change.

[Dynaflash8]

I have a 1934 Plymouth title for a car my late father-in-law junked in 1943, and also an original title of mine for a 1958 Buick.  That one was lost for years and we got a duplicate.  After several moves I came back across it.  I gave that car to my father-in-law and he later junked it in the woods behind the farm.  It could still be there for all I know.

 

The point of this is I thought about selling them. So, at the AACA General Meeting in Philadelphia we had a Seminar whereby a lawyer was one of the speakers.  I think it was about financial planning.  Anyway, I asked him about selling the titles, and is reply was that I'd better not, because if anything ever happened the paper trail could lead back to me, and I could be liable and then in a heap of trouble.  I'm not sure now if it would be legal or civil or both. But, long story short, I still have the titles and they are not for sale, barter or gifting.

 

That's all I know on the subject.

[60FlatTop]

I was raised in a culture that put a lot of emphasis on asking for forgiveness. It's worked out pretty good for me.

 

"Nel nome del Padre, e del Figlio, e dello Spirito Santo."

 

And practicing a real innocent look in the bathroom mirror every morning.

Bernie

[vermontboy]

If you follow other forums there has been a lot of case law cited on the rosettes and on unattached vin plates - let's just say it doesn't always work out well. Google is your friend.

[46 woodie]

1912Staver, many cars have hidden numbers. My Model A ford's have a chassis number stamped under the body, under the driver side cowl. You have to lift the body to see it. I am sure that Ford can't be the only company that concealed numbers.

[CarlLaFong]

Later Austin Healey 3000s have a number under the left front shock. You have to remove the shock to see it

[benjamin j]

There is USUALLY a legal way to get a car titled selling a title and vin tag should not be legal even for collectors. Its like machine gun collectors that have to register them and have a special license to own them and in some cases have them made unable to shoot by a certified gun smith. saying I am a collector does not give me or anyone else the right to do something we all know is morally wrong. I have seen people selling titles on craigslist and I will take the time to send an email to craigslist reporting them every time.

[Restorer32]

Bottom line it is NOT illegal to sell titles. It is illegal to use them to perpetrate a fraud. Would I sell one, probably not. Would I buy one with a VIN and use it, not in a million years.

[Matt Harwood]

Guys, it's  just about money!!!!!  I use to have a friend named B. Henderson who lives just north of Indianapolis and he restores early Corvettes.  On many occasions he has re- stamped the frame, had vin tags made and changed titles so he could sell a 1954 corvette which is worth in the 60's for a 1953 corvette worth in the 250,000's.  He has done this no less than 7 or 8 times and takes a restored 54 and modifies it to a 53.  This isn't a rant either, he has made a good living by taking titles and falsifying cars to sell.

 

Wow. What he's doing is incredibly illegal. That kind of fraud will expose him to both criminal and civil penalties and if someone figures out what he's done, he should probably expect to be sued back to the stone age before spending a few years in jail. Holy cow, I can't believe how illegal that is. One of Carroll Shelby's ventures went south because the company he was working with was moving VINs between cars, not to create value but simply so they could keep up with production (they were buying new Dynacorn bodies and putting scrapyard VINs on them). That company went out of business, the feds seized every car they had in inventory, and every car that they ever built was frozen and the owners couldn't get valid titles until it was sorted out. Google "Unique Performance" for all the sordid details, but this is a VERY big deal, not just, "Haha, those suckers should have done their homework." Caveat emptor will not protect you from this kind of serious fraud.

 

And this totally ignores the harm that it does to the hobby and collectors in general. You wonder why all the fun is missing from the hobby and why everyone's so concerned about documents and numbers and pedigrees? It's exactly this kind of nonsense that makes everyone guilty and nobody trusts anyone. Shame on him. I can't say enough unkind words about this kind of foolishness.

 

While I'm certain that there are guys who actually do collect titles because they like old documents, the fact that the guys who sell old titles are charging several hundred dollars per title suggests to me that the buyers are desperate enough to pay several hundred dollars, and it ain't for a "historical curiosity" they can hang on the wall...

 

In OP's case, I'd say that whatever money you think you'll make by selling this title/VIN tag won't be enough to get you out of trouble if the guy who buys it does something untoward with it. You may not be doing anything illegal (technically) but do you really want to hope the next guy doesn't and doesn't drag you into it? The money you get by selling it won't cover the potential headaches.

 

Short answer: Yes, you can sell an old title and it's legal. But doing so opens up all kinds of risks because in many cases, the people using old titles aren't doing scrupulous things with them. Proceed at your own peril.

[Guest Roj]

Wow. What he's doing is incredibly illegal. That kind of fraud will expose him to both criminal and civil penalties and if someone figures out what he's done, he should probably expect to be sued back to the stone age before spending a few years in jail. Holy cow, I can't believe how illegal that is. One of Carroll Shelby's ventures went south because the company he was working with was moving VINs between cars, not to create value but simply so they could keep up with production (they were buying new Dynacorn bodies and putting scrapyard VINs on them). That company went out of business, the feds seized every car they had in inventory, and every car that they ever built was frozen and the owners couldn't get valid titles until it was sorted out. Google "Unique Performance" for all the sordid details, but this is a VERY big deal, not just, "Haha, those suckers should have done their homework." Caveat emptor will not protect you from this kind of serious fraud.

 

And this totally ignores the harm that it does to the hobby and collectors in general. You wonder why all the fun is missing from the hobby and why everyone's so concerned about documents and numbers and pedigrees? It's exactly this kind of nonsense that makes everyone guilty and nobody trusts anyone. Shame on him. I can't say enough unkind words about this kind of foolishness.

 

While I'm certain that there are guys who actually do collect titles because they like old documents, the fact that the guys who sell old titles are charging several hundred dollars per title suggests to me that the buyers are desperate enough to pay several hundred dollars, and it ain't for a "historical curiosity" they can hang on the wall...

 

In OP's case, I'd say that whatever money you think you'll make by selling this title/VIN tag won't be enough to get you out of trouble if the guy who buys it does something untoward with it. You may not be doing anything illegal (technically) but do you really want to hope the next guy doesn't and doesn't drag you into it? The money you get by selling it won't cover the potential headaches.

 

Short answer: Yes, you can sell an old title and it's legal. But doing so opens up all kinds of risks because in many cases, the people using old titles aren't doing scrupulous things with them. Proceed at your own peril.

I agree with you 100%, but he has been doing this for at least the last 10 years. I honestly don't think anything will ever happen to him. The sad part is he is very talented, but uses his talent in the wrong way to get rich. If he is challenged he is like Donald Trump, and tells people they

are the bad ones. I moved on and walked away, life is to short, but I do feel guilty to the poor saps who think they are getting a deal and find out much later they have been duped.

[Guest]

I'm surprised there are still so many neophytes in the vintage car hobby. As Roj pointed out, it's all about "MONEY".

I was involved pretty heavily in the Corvette world for about about 20 years. I owned about 50 different Corvettes during that time. I bought (and sold) cars I suspected had been re-stamped, cars I knew damn well had been re-stamped and even re-stamped a few of my own.

Now, before any of you with Victorian morals have a fainting spell, know this: According to most known judging standards re-stamping an engine block is a realistic and fair part of the restoration process. Trouble is, some people "forget" to mention the block has been re-stamped. Once the car changes hands a couple of times, who's to ever know, or in fact care? A numbers matching Corvette (or just about any other vintage car today) will always bring more "MONEY". There's that word again.

I can promise you this, if you were to round up every 1965 to 1967 Corvette on the globe today you'd find there are MANY more "original" big block cars out there than GM ever built. Oh, and they ALL have matching numbers. 

Problem is, they are all worth so much "MONEY" and each time the state collects tax on a $65,000 or $120,000 collector car, what do you think their motivation is to crack down on anyone over something as trivial as ethics? They're the government. They're motivated by "MONEY". If it's blatant and the police find out, I guess you're busted but most restorers in this business are top flight professionals at reproducing "original" cars. I consider myself an expert on vintage Corvettes, I've owned many, personally done my own frame off restorations, won many 1st place trophies, worked at GM for years, my credentials are hard to beat in this area. But if someone brought me a '67 big block, 4 speed tri-power Corvette that started life as a 250 hp 327 power glide car and it had been done properly, I would not be able to tell the difference. No one would. And if I paid $120,000 for that car in ten years it would be worth $180,000. As long as the numbers keep going up, nobody is going to care. If the car passes muster with the DMV, looks right, drives right, the market will be endless.  Just consider how many collector cars have headed over to Europe and Japan. They pay top dollar.

So jump from re-stamped engine blocks to re-titled cars....it's not that big of a leap. It's more common than most would believe, but all you have to do is watch eBay for any wrecked collector car that wasn't written off by an insurance company, been off the road for 20 years, owner still has title, VIN tag and a couple of rusty parts. They pop up pretty regular. If the year/make/model is desirable enough, "that" car will make an appearance back on the road somewhere.

So as far as Syakoban (the O.P.) selling his old title, there isn't a law in the land that will care. It's his to do with as he pleases. Sell it, burn it, install it on another '65 Mustang. No one will ever know, or care unless he tells them. $$$$

Edited January 4, 2016 by Guest (see edit history)

[vermontboy]

Here is what can happen when you re-stamp an engine block. It's not like it used to be anymore.

 

http://forums.aaca.org/topic/235053-1931-model-a/?hl=%2Bflorida+%2Bcalifornia+%2Bengine#entry1231061

[Guest]

I guess if someone stamps the WRONG number on the block that would be pretty easy to spot.   

[60FlatTop]

Problem is, they are all worth so much "MONEY" and each time the state collects tax on a $65,000 or $120,000 collector car, what do you think their motivation is to crack down on anyone over something as trivial as ethics?

 

I thought the feds should have been pulled into the GM Cobalt key legal proceedings for apparently not taking due diligence to look into the background of the company they took over. And if they are collecting tax on a fraudulent deal,

ignorance on their part should not hold up in front of a judge, even their own.

 

Bernie

[Guest]

You are right Bernie. Again, follow the money. 

Pay a fine. All is forgiven.

The Highway Patrol doesn't bust first time drunk drivers who blow the minimal limit because they're committed to keeping our highways safe. They do it because each one is worth $10-$15K in the system.....and everyone needs money. Especially the state.

Edited January 5, 2016 by Guest (see edit history)