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What causes a carb to backfire?


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That sounds great. We have a fridge full of Diet Coke, Diet Mountain Dew, Diet Sunkist Orange and Diet A&W Root Beer. My wife will make a big crock pot full of beef or chicken stew or her excellent shrimp and mushroom alfredo and whatever you don't eat here you can take home with you. I'm not a drinker but if you want beer just tell me what kind, or if you don't like diet sodas let me know what you want. I really appreciate the offer. I'll send you a PM with my address and phone number. I'm only half a mile from the exit 17 offramp of I-71 so I'm not way out in the middle of nowhere. Thank you for your very generous offer....

Real sugar non diet Mountain Dew in glass bottles would be good enough,I had one a couple weeks ago and I thought it was the late 70s again.

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Real sugar non diet Mountain Dew in glass bottles would be good enough,I had one a couple weeks ago and I thought it was the late 70s again.

 

That's pretty good if all it takes is a Mountain Dew in a glass bottle to make you feel like it was the 70's again, for myself it take a little more then a mountain dew

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Real sugar non diet Mountain Dew in glass bottles would be good enough,I had one a couple weeks ago and I thought it was the late 70s again.

 

I'll get you a couple of 6 packs of the stuff. How about the crock pot of food? Do any of those 3 choices sound good or would you rather have a turkey sandwich and some yogurt (which is what we usually have for lunch)? How about a homemade cake to take home with you? My wife can bake you a chocolate one with chocolate frosting, or a banana cake, or lemon, or maybe a carrot cake with cream cheese frosting? When you know what Sunday you'll be coming let me know and the Dew and other food will be ready....

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Since you are only a hour from the Cincy area I could stop by some sunday in a couple weeks,all I ask in return is to feed me and have some cold ones if  you drink beer and if not soft drinks are fine.

Jeff you are to be truly commended ! People like you are in short supply and high demand. Our hobby and this site are very fortunate to have you on board. Regards, Wayne

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I hate to bring this up, but I'm a little distressed that the engine is so particularly immaculate and freshly painted on the outside while being in genuinely crappy condition on the inside. Do you feel that it's condition was misrepresented to you? I'm curious as to how many miles you felt it had on it. (Mindful, of course, that odometers shouldn't be relied on with a vehicle of this vintage). It's a beautiful car, but $16,000 is a premium price for a six cylinder Edsel, I think. Of course it's always "Buyer Beware", but in some cases there can be recourse. I hate to pry about this sensitive issue, but tell us what ever you feel comfortable about sharing regarding this particular dealer. He's in St Louis, correct? If it's the one that I'm thinking of, he advertises a lot of vintage cars on a regular basis. It might be helpful to others to know how reputable this dealer is.

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I hate to bring this up, but I'm a little distressed that the engine is so particularly immaculate and freshly painted on the outside while being in genuinely crappy condition on the inside. Do you feel that it's condition was misrepresented to you? I'm curious as to how many miles you felt it had on it. (Mindful, of course, that odometers shouldn't be relied on with a vehicle of this vintage). It's a beautiful car, but $16,000 is a premium price for a six cylinder Edsel, I think. Of course it's always "Buyer Beware", but in some cases there can be recourse. I hate to pry about this sensitive issue, but tell us what ever you feel comfortable about sharing regarding this particular dealer. He's in St Louis, correct? If it's the one that I'm thinking of, he advertises a lot of vintage cars on a regular basis. It might be helpful to others to know how reputable this dealer is.

 

Some of the people on this site may be paranoid about lawsuits so I won't mention the name but they are located in a large former furniture store in O'Fallon, IL which is 15 miles east of St. Louis. It was consigned to them by the 88 year old owner with whom I spoke last week. He told me that when he trailered it in there from his home 100+ miles away in Missouri that they asked him what was the least he would take for it and he said $10k and that that was the amount that they were going to give him. He also said that he had it for sale in his local Craigslist for a while for $11k and it didn't sell so that's why he took it to them. When I called this place and told them I was interested I asked the guy to see if they would take $14k for it. He called back a few minutes later and said that he had spoken to the man and his wife and they said no. I then asked him if they would take $15k so he said he called them again and said they would go no lower than $15,500 (which is what I paid). When I spoke with the seller he said he received no such phone calls so the salesman obviously lied to me about that. The seller said he had over $20k in the car and that he had given them a big stack of receipts for the $3k paint job, complete new SMS interior for $4k, $5k for rechroming the bumpers and other parts, over $1k for a new windshield and all new side glass, and $1k for a recent set of Coker Classic radials. The salesman told me that I would get the receipts when they sent me the title. Well, the title finally arrived yesterday and there were no receipts with it. When I called them I was told that all the salesmen were "busy" but that my call would be returned shortly, which of course it wasn't. Also, the seller said they wanted him to come in to drop off the title and pick up the check instead of mailing it so he and his wife obviously had to make the 100+ mile drive in there. There's more but you get the idea. 

 

The engine smoking problem is the only serious issue I have with this car. My last old car was a '56 Buick and it had problems with the steering, wipers, heater, gas gauge, tires, suspension, differential, exhaust manifold, horn and more. I have no such problems with any of those things with this Edsel. My goal is to get this engine problem resolved and forget about my experience with this dealership and move forward and enjoy the car for the next several years. The first step in this process will hopefully occur soon when Jeff comes down from Dayton so he can hopefully diagnose and maybe even eliminate the smoking problem by making a few adjustments to the timing or valves or whatever. I'll keep you guys informed and again thanks to all who are concerned and trying to help me through this....

Edited by Lebowski (see edit history)
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Obviously you paid $5500 more than the seller would have taken and if the seller is truthful the sales company lied to you, They are entitled to a fair profit but you are entitled to the truth. In my opinion two out of the three in this transactions were losers and if I were you I would contact a lawyer. I think you should pursue civil litigation! Wayne

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Obviously you paid $5500 more than the seller would have taken and if the seller is truthful the sales company lied to you, They are entitled to a fair profit but you are entitled to the truth. In my opinion two out of the three in this transactions were losers and if I were you I would contact a lawyer. I think you should pursue civil litigation! Wayne

 

I think most lawyers would tell me to go jump in the lake. They advertised a car for a certain price and I bought it for $495 less than that amount so what are the grounds for a lawsuit? There was no written promise for them to give me the receipts so it's just my word against theirs. The person who should be considering litigation is the seller but he probably signed a contract that said he would accept a minimum of $10k so that's all they gave him. They put over 100 pics in the ad along with a video of it running and driving which is more than most new or used car dealers do (see ad below). You can see a small amount of smoke in the video when the guy shifts gears but it's obviously a lot worse now for whatever reason. Like I said before, I would like to put this experience behind me by getting the engine repaired or replaced and moving forward to enjoy it for several years....

 

http://gatewayclassiccars.com/saint-louis/1960/edsel/ranger-S6632.html

Edited by Lebowski (see edit history)
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They advertise in Hemmings - it certainly wouldn't hurt to file a complaint with them.

 

I'd do this...You could argue that they're just running a business, but they lied to you and didn't follow through on several occasions.  At the very least, this is very poor customer service.  Hemmings has a pretty good reputation, and I would think they'd at least like to know if their advertisers are potentially shady.

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Sad to say that many consignment houses are all about "bright shiny" and for something mechanical they need to farm it out. The current crop of "reality" shows just emphasize flipping with no or little value added.

 

OTOH when I bought the Crossfire, first thing I did was to connect a scan tool and the seller had not a clue what I was doing. Also have been known to spend as much time under a car as on top.

 

So worst case you need a ring & valve job and that is really no big, might not even need to pull the engine (though easier with it out). If the rod bearings look good and oil pressure is OK, no need to pull the crank. Just takes someone who knows these engines. After all you are just building a nice driver and not a race car.

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After listening to the exhaust and hearing the popping under load.

Probably the simplest thing, Did you check the firing order?

 

If that fixes it you can send the cake to Oregon. LOL

Edited by JACK M (see edit history)
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Getting a lawyer involved will assure that there will be one winner at the end, for sure!

 

These old cars are discretionary purchases. You know, bought with extra money or what I like to call "found money". I have been buying and selling them since I was 12 years old and in the seventh grade. I could walk away from all my stuff and still be way ahead on what I have owned and done.

 

Buying based pricing from an 88 year old car guy is something I'd be wary of. I'm only 67 and I know selling an old car, or any discretionary item, is sport. Beware of old men selling something you don't really need. They'll git ya. My wife has a spreadsheet describing each of my cars with the "alive" price and the "dead" price. If you hear of me dying get to her fast because there are going to be six real good deals. Or check out the list and PM me now. I have an idea that when I'm 88 the "live" price might be higher.

 

Bernie

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Not mentioning any names,but an acquaintance of my in Australia bought a 1962 Oldsmobile from this dealer.  When it arrived it would not pass the mandated road worthy inspection.  The frame was rotted through.  You can imagine the hassle of trying to resolve this dilemma from Australia! 

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 talk about using a Burnz-A-Matic to locate vacuum leaks.

 

 This sounds interesting ?

It's called the propane enrichment test, which involves removing the burner off the valve that goes on the tank and installing a hose (a tight leak-proof connection) with the engine running AND CHECKING FOR NO SPARKS, crack open the valve and run the hose around carb base or anywhere a leak could be when the idle increases that's the area of the leak. It could be dangerous though.

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It's called the propane enrichment test, which involves removing the burner off the valve that goes on the tank and installing a hose (a tight leak-proof connection) with the engine running AND CHECKING FOR NO SPARKS, crack open the valve and run the hose around carb base or anywhere a leak could be when the idle increases that's the area of the leak. It could be dangerous though.

No, it's about taking a Burnz-A-Matic, cracking the valve open about a half of a turn and holding the nozzle close to any area which could possibly be allowing air to enter. Here I'm talking about carb bases, intake manifold gasket area, etc. If there is a leak then propane will enter the manifold and the idle will go up. Simple and not dangerous. If you locate a spot where the introduction of propane increases the idle, you've located your vacuum leak. I was hesitant to bring up the legal angle because I know that it can be quite pointless once you've made the purchase. If you'll recall, I asked specifically if you feel that the condition of the car (here I'm talking about the engine, specifically) had been misrepresented. Did the dealer make any claims as to the condition of the engine? Edited by Hudsy Wudsy (see edit history)
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I like Jack M's idea in #92 about checking the firing order. Also, I'm sure Jeff will check all the basics like rotor, distributor cap for missing carbon button, cracks, carbon tracking, etc. How do the plug wires look? Ohmmeter check of each plug wire.

May I recommend that Lebowski spend another $25-30 for a distributor cap and rotor, AND another condenser. NAPA should be able to get those within a day. I've found that condensers can cause all kinds of grief when all other components check out. Perhaps replace one of the above components at a time to determine the point of failure. Any existing component that has not failed can be carried in the trunk for future potential roadside repairs. I'd ask for parts for a 1960 FORD 223 6-cylinder.

With a new collector car, I usually go thru the ignition and establish a baseline for **my** ownership, keep a computer record and a Next Maintenance mileage or date, so I know when to replace or at least look at individual components or services.

Please keep us posted on what you guys find!

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I'll mention something else, here, while I'm thinking about it. Someone, earlier, suggested that you might buy a rebuilt engine from a company like "Jasper ". In many cases the original, numbers-matching engine is very important to the value of a car. Although it seems less so for later model cars. There are probably more '50s and '60s Chevies with 350 engines in them than there are ones with their original stock engines. I don't know how the market would feel about your particular car in either case, but I guess you should ask others what they think about it before pulling your original engine and replacing it. Back to the list of tools and instruments that I suggested earlier- I think that it would be wise and inexpensive for you to but a vacuum hand pump. They are sold by Harbor Freight and other cheapie outlets for under $30. They are promoted as being for, and are useful for bleeding brakes, but in your case, it can be used for checking if the vacuum advance in your distributor is actually working. I'm not talking about a vacuum leak, as vacuum advances rarely fail in that manner. I'm talking about using your hand pump to apply vacuum to the distributor advance (with cap and rotor off) to see if the breaker plate actually moves (advances). This one of the things that could cause the back firing. It's also important that it remain in the advanced position while the vacuum is applied and not return to it's "at rest" position.

Edited by Hudsy Wudsy (see edit history)
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 Did you check the firing order?

 

If that fixes it you can send the cake to Oregon. LOL

 

It's 1-5-3-6-2-4 and it's correct on the car but if you come out from Oregon my wife will make you a carrot cake with raisins and her excellent cream cheese frosting. If that's not your favorite kind that's OK because I'll eat it for breakfast for the next several days. LOL

 

I did a search on another site (HAMB)  for "Ford 223" and there was an interesting thread on there about this engine. A couple guys said to replace the "valve stem seals" and that it wasn't necessary to pull the head to do it. Should I buy some of these seals (6?) before Jeff comes because NAPA isn't open on Sundays? Are there any other parts I should have on hand when he gets here? I have a good relationship with the guys at the local NAPA store so I should be able to return whatever parts he doesn't need. 

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Did this car have vacuum wipers?  If so, could a ruptured vacuum diaphragm cause a vacuum leak?  Did somebody already ask that?

 

It did have vacuum wipers but the previous owner replaced the vacuum wiper motor with an electric one. If I was going to check for a vacuum leak how would I go about doing that?

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Did the dealer make any claims as to the condition of the engine?

 

No. The salesman said the car was there on consignment and they are not mechanics and don't work on cars. He said there was no in-house mechanic there either. Like I said before, you can see some smoke coming from the car in their video so I knew going in that it may smoke a little. The seller told me after I bought the car that he redid the brakes and a lot of other things but never rebuilt the engine....

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I like Jack M's idea in #92 about checking the firing order. Also, I'm sure Jeff will check all the basics like rotor, distributor cap for missing carbon button, cracks, carbon tracking, etc. How do the plug wires look? Ohmmeter check of each plug wire.

May I recommend that Lebowski spend another $25-30 for a distributor cap and rotor, AND another condenser. NAPA should be able to get those within a day. I've found that condensers can cause all kinds of grief when all other components check out. Perhaps replace one of the above components at a time to determine the point of failure. Any existing component that has not failed can be carried in the trunk for future potential roadside repairs. I'd ask for parts for a 1960 FORD 223 6-cylinder.

With a new collector car, I usually go thru the ignition and establish a baseline for **my** ownership, keep a computer record and a Next Maintenance mileage or date, so I know when to replace or at least look at individual components or services.

Please keep us posted on what you guys find!

 

The plug wires look fairly new. I'll call NAPA on Monday and order the cap, rotor and condenser. I'll get new plugs too. I'm more than happy to spend a few bucks on parts that I can replace myself and that may solve the problem.... 

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A good understanding of the three basic's. Mechanical, electrical and fuel system and the ability to analyze, test, adjust and repair those systems is necessary. For all those values you need to know you need a road map to know where your going, that is what the service manual is for, and if you don't know some specific things it will provide you with that information.

I wouldn't get into the habit of parts replacing for the sake of parts replacing. You might get lucky this way, but for the most part you are throwing your money away on things you don't need. Parts replacers give good mechanic/technicians a bad name, and they really show their ignorance and why they should not be working on your car.

Edited by helfen (see edit history)
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A good understanding of the three basic's. Mechanical, electrical and fuel system and the ability to analyze, test, adjust and repair those systems is necessary. For all those values you need to know you need a road map to know where your going, that is what the service manual is for, and if you don't know some specific things it will provide you with that information.

I wouldn't get into the habit of parts replacing for the sake of parts replacing. You might get lucky this way, but for the most part you are throwing your money away on things you don't need. Parts replacers give good mechanic/technicians a bad name, and they really show their ignorance and why they should not be working on your car.

 

I have a factory shop manual. The plugs looked pretty old and worn when I did the compression test which leads me to believe that the other tuneup parts are pretty old too. I should probably get some points too even though I don't know how to adjust them. The seller said it hadn't been lubed since 2004 so it could probably use a good lube job too....

Edited by Lebowski (see edit history)
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I have a factory shop manual. The plugs looked pretty old and worn when I did the compression test which leads me to believe that the other tuneup parts are pretty old too. I should probably get some points too even though I don't know how to adjust them. The seller said it hadn't been lubed since 2004 so it could probably use a good lube job too....

There is nothing wrong with doing a minor or major tune-up so that you have a maintenance reference for the next future times. I have a log book on all 9 of my cars. A minor Tune Up, If done properly it will cover many of the suggestions I listed before. This is where you can start to keep a continuous log running on your car. You should also have one on every vehicle you have. Setting ignition points is a simple procedure, however since you are working on the distributor you should be checking everything about the distributor and all the servicing it needs like vacuum advance diaphragm and it's operation, cleaning and lubricating the mechanical advance weights and operation, with the distributor removed you must check for play or worn shaft bushings. Remember when installing the points that you must clean them ( carbon tetrachloride or non residue cleaner ) and if you are not using a dwell meter to set them, then you must clean your feeler gauge with the same solvent as well. Points must be cleaned when they are new because when they leave the manufacturing plant they are coated with a thin film of grease or equivalent and if it's not cleaned off will cause the points to pit very fast because of the transfer of electricity from one point to the other and the film in between. Make sure you check and lube the distributor cam, with distributor cam grease and only use about a 1/2 a match head of grease on the cam and put the rest behind the cam block on the point arm.

Did you do the hand over the carburetor trick I suggested??...

Edited by helfen (see edit history)
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Did you do the hand over the carburetor trick I suggested??...

 

I just went out and did that now. I'm not sure what the air horn is so I revved it up and covered the top of the carb with a rag until it almost died, then I revved it up and did it again. I did that at least 12 times. It's been raining here all day so I couldn't take it out for a drive so I'll drive it tomorrow or Monday. Should I be able to notice anything different about the way it runs now? 

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If the motor is tired I would suggest buying a good used motor that can be heard run as they can be picked up cheap since alot get pulled in favor of V8s,there is a big truck version that is a 262 but have never seen any. I will bring all the necessary tools and equipment with me and hope I can get it running better for you.  There is a 223 in my area on craigslist that can be heard run but we will worry about that after I check it out.

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If the motor is tired I would suggest buying a good used motor that can be heard run as they can be picked up cheap since alot get pulled in favor of V8s,there is a big truck version that is a 262 but have never seen any. I will bring all the necessary tools and equipment with me and hope I can get it running better for you.  There is a 223 in my area on craigslist that can be heard run but we will worry about that after I check it out.

 

Did you see my earlier post about replacing the valve stem seals without pulling the head? Do you want me to buy some of them or any other parts since NAPA is closed on Sundays? If we don't need them I should be able to return them for a refund....

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No, it's about taking a Burnz-A-Matic, cracking the valve open about a half of a turn and holding the nozzle close to any area which could possibly be allowing air to enter. Here I'm talking about carb bases, intake manifold gasket area, etc. If there is a leak then propane will enter the manifold and the idle will go up. Simple and not dangerous. If you locate a spot where the introduction of propane increases the idle, you've located your vacuum leak. I was hesitant to bring up the legal angle because I know that it can be quite pointless once you've made the purchase. If you'll recall, I asked specifically if you feel that the condition of the car (here I'm talking about the engine, specifically) had been misrepresented. Did the dealer make any claims as to the condition of the engine?

I thought that's what I said, in so many words, I guess some people just like to argue, oh never mind.
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Quote: " removing the burner off the valve that goes on the tank and installing a hose"

 

rhb1999, I'm sorry I didn't understand that you meant to remove the valve from the propane tank and use the tank with a rubber hose. I've never done it that way, so I didn't recognize that we were talking about the same thing. Just out of curiosity, why do you remove the valve?

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A good understanding of the three basic's. Mechanical, electrical and fuel system and the ability to analyze, test, adjust and repair those systems is necessary. For all those values you need to know you need a road map to know where your going, that is what the service manual is for, and if you don't know some specific things it will provide you with that information.

I wouldn't get into the habit of parts replacing for the sake of parts replacing. You might get lucky this way, but for the most part you are throwing your money away on things you don't need. Parts replacers give good mechanic/technicians a bad name, and they really show their ignorance and why they should not be working on your car.

I forgot to mention besides all of the above, IF you are not going to be doing some of the work on your vehicle my advise would be to not let anyone work on it unless they have at least "ASE" certification in the type of work they are performing for you.

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Did you do the hand over the carburetor trick I suggested??...

 

I took the car for a drive today on the wet roads to see if it was any better after performing your "carburetor trick" last night and it didn't backfire through the carb at all! I left the choke in all the way and went through the gears several times with NO backfiring at all. It still left the same big cloud of smoke behind me but I believe that your trick definitely resolved that issue. Thank you!

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I forgot to mention besides all of the above, IF you are not going to be doing some of the work on your vehicle my advise would be to not let anyone work on it unless they have at least "ASE" certification in the type of work they are performing for you.

 

A lot of guys are great mechanics who have had little to no formal training so at this point if someone is going to be generous enough to help me I'm not going to start asking for credentials. That may be a common practice in Vulcania but it's not cool here unless "ASE certified" stands for Avanti, Studebaker and Edsel. LOL

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A lot of guys are great mechanics who have had little to no formal training so at this point if someone is going to be generous enough to help me I'm not going to start asking for credentials. That may be a common practice in Vulcania but it's not cool here unless "ASE certified" stands for Avanti, Studebaker and Edsel. LOL

I totally agree with you. Some of the very best classic and antique car mechanics I know have no official accreditation. They learned their trade at the school of hard knocks. Very few of today's mechanics have the experience to work on cars from the 1920-1970 era. If a computer does not tell them what's wrong they are lost! Wayne

Edited by AlCapone (see edit history)
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A lot of guys are great mechanics who have had little to no formal training so at this point if someone is going to be generous enough to help me I'm not going to start asking for credentials. That may be a common practice in Vulcania but it's not cool here unless "ASE certified" stands for Avanti, Studebaker and Edsel. LOL

 

How about Abbott, Stearns, and Elcar? ;)

 

Jon

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A lot of guys are great mechanics who have had little to no formal training so at this point if someone is going to be generous enough to help me I'm not going to start asking for credentials. That may be a common practice in Vulcania but it's not cool here unless "ASE certified" stands for Avanti, Studebaker and Edsel. LOL

Reminds me of one day deep into Mexico on a surf trip where we were surfing in this bay. Normally on a average 6 ft day there would be three breaks in the bay, this day at 15ft it was just one huge wall going past a jetty and boat ramp at the end of one side of the bay. Two waves before I cleared the jetty and kicked out in the deep water boat ramp side. The third wave I ended up on the jetty with a eight inch diagonal gash to the bone in my lower leg. Bleeding like a pig, no doctors around a buddy tied off the leg went into a village and managed to come back with sewing needle and cotton thread and sowed me up Johnney on the spot muscle first then skin, no pain killers, just some good old Black Velvet. If I had been in the States I would have gone to a doctor. In Mexico it was needs-must and no Hobson's choice.

When I interviewed people for a technician position, I was looking for a degree, ASE certification and good references before a interview because I had the choice. Yes, I know a piece of paper doesn't mean you have a good tech, that's why you have a six month probation period.

Edited by helfen (see edit history)
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Years ago my employer let me out of my cage on a recuitment trip. Since were looking for newly minted Electrical Engineers, I asked if they knew how to fix a TV. Was told that was inappropriate.

Certification can be difficult when you have 20 years experience in a field that has only existed for five.

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I took the car for a drive today on the wet roads to see if it was any better after performing your "carburetor trick" last night and it didn't backfire through the carb at all! I left the choke in all the way and went through the gears several times with NO backfiring at all. It still left the same big cloud of smoke behind me but I believe that your trick definitely resolved that issue. Thank you!

Thank you for the thank you. Many people do not show the courtesy you have.

I want to say that you might not be out of the woods. It is possible that some piece of dirt might have been dislodged from a jet or air bleed by your action and if it was not sucked out of the carburetor might or might not come back to the same position it was in and repeat your problem, however you do know where the problem lies if it should come back.

All the best!

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