Jump to content

'67 LeMans????


bosco001
 Share

Recommended Posts

https://m.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=MhaaGSh9Sa8

Would appreciate if someone who's knowledgeable about 1967 Tempest's/LeMans's could spare a few minutes and watch the video link I've provided about a car listed for sale that's being marketed as a LeMans. I'm trying to figure out just what it is. Personally, I think this car started life as a Tempest and has been restored/morphed into a LeMans. I know the difference between a Tempest and a LeMans is somewhat of an issue of semantics.

I also know the car is not "correct" (ex. Pontiac spelled out on the rocker panel, aftermarket intake manifold & carb) and normally I'm fine with that. But, with a $49,900 asking price, am I nuts to expect the car to be perfectly correct? BTW, is it proper for the LeMans nameplates on the rear fenders to be attached with rivets/fasteners that pop thru the truck walls? Never seen that before. Seems like a short cut to me especially given the apparent high level of restoration. Same goes for the naked trunk interior. Was a simple trunk liner not even available? Which leads me to: "Who spends that much restoring a LeMans"?

Sorry for rambling. I'm just trying to figure out if this is a car I want to consider. Knowing just exactly what it is (or what it's trying to be) would be a good start. Hope to get a lot of good feedback. Thanks.

Edited by bosco001 (see edit history)
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...

Look at the data plate on the firewall , a LeMans convertible has a style # of 23767, but even if you didn't know this the GILLS on the rear quarter panels is a dead giveaway that the car is a LeMans. GTO and Tempest are void of the gills. The fasteners for the rear quarter letters are correct, but the trunk area should be better painted with spatter paint, and even a lowly tempest would have a trunk mat.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Helfen, thanks for the reply.  Question.  Is it not possible to put Lemans gills on a Tempest?

If you were a great body man I supposed you could do it, but you are talking about a ton of work. There is not that much demand for turning a Tempest into a LeMans. Usually anyone doing cloning turns a LeMans into a GTO or a Tempest into a GTO. These days with the help of Pontiac Historical services only the uninformed get hoodwinked by a person cloning a Pontiac. I know there is aftermarket rear quarter panels for 66-67 Pontiac GTO and Tempest, however I do not believe there are panels made for the one year 67 LeMans quarters.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It looks like a nice car but theres too much incorrectly done to it to call it restored, at least correctly restored.

What makes you think it started life as a Tempest conv ?

For $49,900 I don't think you'd be nuts for wanting it to be correct.

For $29,900 I don't think you'd be nuts for wanting it to be correct either

Link to comment
Share on other sites

64pontiac,

 

Since making my original post, I contacted the dealer and they indicated they have info from PHS indicating it is a real LeMans.  Why did I think this car started life as a Tempest?  It was just a hunch, that's all. This car just seems way too nice for a LeMans.  Someone spent a lot of money in the "renovation" work.  Who does that for a LeMans?  I know it's a convertible, so that probably answers my question.  Just seemed fishy to me.  I guess the popularity and collectibility of GTO's has helped "pull up" the desirability of the LeMans. Another thing I find odd about the car is the fact there are spacers in the front coil springs (at least on the driver's side).  Surprising given the money and effort put into this car. Having said that, this car's stance IS  PERFECT.  May not be factory correct, but looks great to my eye. Still, I would think the same stance could've been accomplished with springs which aren't all that expensive. Again, just seems weird given the level of effort expended on this car. As others have pointed out, the previous owner apparently wasn't too concerned about wanting to make the "correct".  He built it to his taste, which is fine .  .  .  until it's time to sell.   Totally cool car, but anything in excess of $35K just seems over the moon to me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

To do a 66 LeMans into a GTO is much easier to do than a 67 because of the gills, still there is always the data plate on the firewall which all you would have to do is get from the seller ( I gave you the style # for a 67 LeMans conv. ).

NADA guides give a car like that a 39-40K if it was a perfect CORRECT car. This car is not perfect and is certainly not correctly restored. Restored means to original. The engine is missing the proper intake and carburetor, plus it's emission equipment. The transmission is a T350, which is incorrect it should be a ST300. The hood is GTO, the front grille is GTO, the lower rocker molding is GTO, which is different than LeMans rocker molding. The engine color is incorrect----I could go on and on. What you have is a mismatch of parts. If your intension is to show it, it won't get you into a AACA national event, If you intended to show it in a Pontiac Oakland Club event it would be place in a modified category....not fun when you would be competing with modified GTO's and the like with chromed up engine compartments. In my opinion the car is worth 25K tops and someday later when you try to sell it all these issues which would now be your problem will make it hard to sell.

Edited by helfen (see edit history)
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Does it matter? The value difference between a Tempest and a Lemans is negligible and if you're buying one of these for its pedigree, you're making a mistake. Nobody's faking a Lemans. If they were going to spend the time to build a fake, that car would be wearing GTO badges instead. No, it's a lightly modified car built to someone's taste. If that taste matches yours, well, maybe it's a good buy because he surely spent more to build it than you will to buy it.

 

As far as "at that price, I expect it to be correct," well, that's kind of a matter of taste, not a reasonable expectation. Surely you've noticed modified cars selling for more than perfectly restored, 100-point concours correct examples, no? This is no different. In fact, I'd say that the modifications are WHY it's priced like it is. If it were a stock Lemans, it would be a $30,000 car. The added value comes from the modifications.

 

As an example, I just sold this 1965 Tempest for twice "book value:"

 

001.jpg

 

It was originally a six-cylinder/PowerGlide, now has a 1969 400 cubic inch V8 and TH400 transmission. The suspension is upgraded with rack-and-pinion power steering, it's got disc brakes, cool 17-inch Rallye II replicas, and there are new gauges inside. It's extremely clean and quite handsome, in my opinion. As a six-cylinder, it was never abused so it's super tight and clean. Book value (whatever that means) puts it somewhere around $13,000 in #1 condition, and it comes with receipts adding up to somewhere north of $35,000 not including the purchase of the car. I sold it for more than twice book value, and I still think it's a great value. It's not "correct," it's not "matching numbers," but I'd argue it's a better, more appealing car now than when it was "right." Purists won't agree, but this is undisputedly a better car now than when it was in original spec. I had several potential buyers hunting it, so I know it was priced right even at twice book value. If you follow some of the logic here, you'd think that there should have been zero buyers because it wasn't factory correct and in 100-point condition and the price was crazy. The guy who bought it is tickled with it, that's all that matters.

 

Now, as to whether the modifications on this particular convertible are to your liking, that's a different story and a question only you can answer. If you like the way the car looks and the price is something you can afford and you see the value in it, then buy it and start having fun. But all this agonizing about pedigrees and paperwork and authenticity and book values is what is driving all the fun out of the hobby, not the dealers that everyone loves to hate and point to as the problem. As you've so perfectly demonstrated here, even non-pedigreed, low-value cars have buyers who expect some kind of impossible standard of authenticity because they think of the car as an "investment" instead of merely fun, and worry about "the next guy." That's like building a beautiful new custom house but painting everything beige so when you sell it in 10 or 20 years, the next buyers won't object. You hamstring your own enjoyment so that some unknown stranger at some unknown point in the future possibly won't complain about it. Doesn't that seem kind of ridiculous?

 

Forget pedigrees and how "right" this car is. If you like it and your budget allows for it, buy it and have fun and forget this nonsense about making sure it's 100% accurate. If not, move on to something else that is more accurate if that's what you're looking for. Basing that expectation exclusively on price is a mistake and arguing semantics about what "restored" means is just that: semantics. Everyone in this hobby wastes so much time on chasing perfection and authenticity that they sit on the sidelines for years waiting for the ideal combination of perfect, correct, and cheap to just fall in their lap. Meanwhile, they're getting older. Money is easy to get. Time is impossible. Get in and have fun, stop fussing over semantics on non-investment-grade cars.

 

Just my $0.02.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Does it matter? The value difference between a Tempest and a Lemans is negligible and if you're buying one of these for its pedigree, you're making a mistake. Nobody's faking a Lemans. If they were going to spend the time to build a fake, that car would be wearing GTO badges instead. No, it's a lightly modified car built to someone's taste. If that taste matches yours, well, maybe it's a good buy because he surely spent more to build it than you will to buy it.

 

As far as "at that price, I expect it to be correct," well, that's kind of a matter of taste, not a reasonable expectation. Surely you've noticed modified cars selling for more than perfectly restored, 100-point concours correct examples, no? This is no different. In fact, I'd say that the modifications are WHY it's priced like it is. If it were a stock Lemans, it would be a $30,000 car. The added value comes from the modifications.

 

As an example, I just sold this 1965 Tempest for twice "book value:"

 

001.jpg

 

It was originally a six-cylinder/PowerGlide, now has a 1969 400 cubic inch V8 and TH400 transmission. The suspension is upgraded with rack-and-pinion power steering, it's got disc brakes, cool 17-inch Rallye II replicas, and there are new gauges inside. It's extremely clean and quite handsome, in my opinion. As a six-cylinder, it was never abused so it's super tight and clean. Book value (whatever that means) puts it somewhere around $13,000 in #1 condition, and it comes with receipts adding up to somewhere north of $35,000 not including the purchase of the car. I sold it for more than twice book value, and I still think it's a great value. It's not "correct," it's not "matching numbers," but I'd argue it's a better, more appealing car now than when it was "right." Purists won't agree, but this is undisputedly a better car now than when it was in original spec. I had several potential buyers hunting it, so I know it was priced right even at twice book value. If you follow some of the logic here, you'd think that there should have been zero buyers because it wasn't factory correct and in 100-point condition and the price was crazy. The guy who bought it is tickled with it, that's all that matters.

 

Now, as to whether the modifications on this particular convertible are to your liking, that's a different story and a question only you can answer. If you like the way the car looks and the price is something you can afford and you see the value in it, then buy it and start having fun. But all this agonizing about pedigrees and paperwork and authenticity and book values is what is driving all the fun out of the hobby, not the dealers that everyone loves to hate and point to as the problem. As you've so perfectly demonstrated here, even non-pedigreed, low-value cars have buyers who expect some kind of impossible standard of authenticity because they think of the car as an "investment" instead of merely fun, and worry about "the next guy." That's like building a beautiful new custom house but painting everything beige so when you sell it in 10 or 20 years, the next buyers won't object. You hamstring your own enjoyment so that some unknown stranger at some unknown point in the future possibly won't complain about it. Doesn't that seem kind of ridiculous?

 

Forget pedigrees and how "right" this car is. If you like it and your budget allows for it, buy it and have fun and forget this nonsense about making sure it's 100% accurate. If not, move on to something else that is more accurate if that's what you're looking for. Basing that expectation exclusively on price is a mistake and arguing semantics about what "restored" means is just that: semantics. Everyone in this hobby wastes so much time on chasing perfection and authenticity that they sit on the sidelines for years waiting for the ideal combination of perfect, correct, and cheap to just fall in their lap. Meanwhile, they're getting older. Money is easy to get. Time is impossible. Get in and have fun, stop fussing over semantics on non-investment-grade cars.

 

Just my $0.02.

But Matt, isn't authentic and correct the reason were are here on a AACA forum and what AACA is all about? That is what I heard Steve Moskowitz say to Wayne Carini on Chasing Classic cars show interview about AACA. I assume that's why your here like me. Lately at car shows I've been to you see this crowd standing around a for example a 1965 Chevelle 300, six cylinder, powerglide. No one seems interested in the Z11 next to it. Or LS7 in a 65 Malibu SS.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But Matt, isn't authentic and correct the reason were are here on a AACA forum and what AACA is all about? That is what I heard Steve Moskowitz say to Wayne Carini on Chasing Classic cars show interview about AACA. I assume that's why your here like me. Lately at car shows I've been to you see this crowd standing around a for example a 1965 Chevelle 300, six cylinder, powerglide. No one seems interested in the Z11 next to it. Or LS7 in a 65 Malibu SS.

 

No doubt, you're right: correctness and authenticity are rightfully what the AACA should be about. It's why I'm a member and it's why I don't typically buy modified cars for myself or to put in my inventory. If I'm spending my own money, I like correct cars.

 

However, that's not what this post is about. He isn't asking if he should buy a 100-point car, he's asking if this particular car is a fake. He didn't ask what he would have to do to make it an AACA-eligible car, he asked if it was possible that someone changed the car when it was restored.

 

My point was merely that if you want an AACA-eligible, correct car, then that's what you should buy. But arguing that at $XX,XXX a car should be 100% correct isn't reasonable because not everyone wants an AACA-eligible, correct car and there are plenty of ineligible, incorrect cars out there that are worth more than their unmodified siblings. This isn't a discussion about the virtues of the AACA or a purity test, it's a discussion of  whether a 1967 Lemans convertible with modifications is worth the current asking price. In the case of a modified car, that's often something only the buyer can decide.

 

It's a mistake to assume that the only cars with value now and in the future are 100-point cars that have been restored to exact factory specs.

Edited by Matt Harwood (see edit history)
Link to comment
Share on other sites

No doubt, you're right: correctness and authenticity are rightfully what the AACA should be about. It's why I'm a member and it's why I don't typically buy modified cars for myself or to put in my inventory. If I'm spending my own money, I like correct cars.

 

However, that's not what this post is about. He isn't asking if he should buy a 100-point car, he's asking if this particular car is a fake. He didn't ask what he would have to do to make it an AACA-eligible car, he asked if it was possible that someone changed the car when it was restored.

 

My point was merely that if you want an AACA-eligible, correct car, then that's what you should buy. But arguing that at $XX,XXX a car should be 100% correct isn't reasonable because not everyone wants an AACA-eligible, correct car and there are plenty of ineligible, incorrect cars out there that are worth more than their unmodified siblings. This isn't a discussion about the virtues of the AACA or a purity test, it's a discussion of  whether a 1967 Lemans convertible with modifications is worth the current asking price. In the case of a modified car, that's often something only the buyer can decide.

 

It's a mistake to assume that the only cars with value now and in the future are 100-point cars that have been restored to exact factory specs.

But Matt this was my reply to Bosco001;

To do a 66 LeMans into a GTO is much easier to do than a 67 because of the gills, still there is always the data plate on the firewall which all you would have to do is get from the seller ( I gave you the style # for a 67 LeMans conv. ).

NADA guides give a car like that a 39-40K if it was a perfect CORRECT car. This car is not perfect and is certainly not correctly restored. Restored means to original. The engine is missing the proper intake and carburetor, plus it's emission equipment. The transmission is a T350, which is incorrect it should be a ST300. The hood is GTO, the front grille is GTO, the lower rocker molding is GTO, which is different than LeMans rocker molding. The engine color is incorrect----I could go on and on. What you have is a mismatch of parts. If your intension is to show it, it won't get you into a AACA national event, If you intended to show it in a Pontiac Oakland Club event it would be place in a modified category....not fun when you would be competing with modified GTO's and the like with chromed up engine compartments. In my opinion the car is worth 25K tops and someday later when you try to sell it all these issues which would now be your problem will make it hard to sell.

Matt, I'm not arguing here. My statement is about how my feelings are on the subject. Isn't everyone entitled?

Edited by helfen (see edit history)
Link to comment
Share on other sites

How much is that '65 Tempest worth then? It's got the wrong engine, the wrong carburetor, the wrong intake manifold, the wrong wheels, the wrong transmission, the wrong gauges, the wrong exhaust manifolds, the wrong radiator, the wrong brakes, the wrong steering mechanism, the wrong radio, etc., etc., etc. A generous book value is $13,000 (OK, it's $9350 for a #2 condition car, which is what this might be). Disregarding what it sold for, what's it worth by your reasoning? $4000? $6000?

 

I'm not saying you're not entitled to an opinion (quite the contrary), I'm just saying that we're comparing apples to oranges. If he likes the car and doesn't care about correctness, who are we to tell him he's making a mistake? You correctly answered his question about it being a fake, which it apparently is not. But imagine he buys the car and now you're telling him he paid $15,000 too much. Or worse, you've scared him away from a car that would have otherwise made him happy simply because there's a shadow on it that he didn't care about until you brought it up.

 

Price is always between a buyer and a seller, and the buyer is always the sole arbiter of whether the price was right. If he's happy, that's all that matters. We Monday morning quarterbacks often do nothing but sew discord and buyer's regret. Insisting that correctness be the only scale by which value can be measured is why everyone is so paranoid about numbers and pedigrees, even on cars where it matters naught. It's a whole bunch of sound and fury signifying nothing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Matt, If you look at what he asked about the car I simply told him the things I saw that were incorrect. He said he was just trying to figure out what it was. I thought that was what he was asking.

Now were getting into what I think the 65's worth and that is a question that depends on whether It's me buying or who I'm trying to sell it to and how the economy is looking. I think we should stick to the 67 in question.

BTY Matt the 215 that was removed from the 65 is kind of a rare piece...the only Chevrolet 6 machined to Pontiac specifications.

 

FYI. Bosco001, you probably know this. All 64 & 65 GTO are LeMans with the GTO option. There style # is LeMans.

In 1966 GTO becomes it's own series, but with the exception of applique's or script and console A/T shifter differences in 67 & 68-- inside the cars, the interior's of GTO's and LeMans  is identical. Same door panels, seats, headliner, carpet.

I have a 69 LeMans hardtop coupe H-O I bought new. It has a identical interior to a 69 GTO.

Edited by helfen (see edit history)
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Actually, he didn't ask for advice on the price. You gave that unsolicited and without qualifiers like the state of the economy or who the buyer might be. Why does that even matter?

 

And just so I have this straight: you'll discount the car in question $15,000 because of a few incorrect parts, but you won't lend your expertise to putting a price on my Tempest? Why? You said the '67 was wrong, and therefore was [much] less valuable. Why is my Tempest different?

 

Oh, wait, I don't think anyone would believe you if you told us that installing a 140-horsepower six, a 2-speed automatic, manual steering, and drum brakes would make it more valuable...

 

The point is, don't be afraid of modified cars, bosco. Buy what you like. Only you can decide if it's right for you and if the price is fair. Everyone else is just whistling in the wind.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Matt,

 

I appreciate your input and you make some interesting and thought-provoking points.  But, regarding your '65 Tempest, I don't think it's a good comparison to this black '67 LeMans convertible. Why?  Because the LeMans in question started life as a V-8 (not an insignificant issue) and it's only slightly modified from stock.  Your '65 Tempest was a lowly 6 cylinder post car and therefore at the bottom of the food chain.  In its pure stock form, that Tempest was someone's aunt's grocery getter for which there's isn't much of a market regardless of condition. Therefore, pretty much anything you do to a car like that (as long as it's nicely done as it apparently was with yours) its only going to enhance it's value.  In the case of that Tempest, the more you do the better.  Kind of the "go big, or go home" modification theory.  BUT, the biggest difference between the LeMans in question and your Tempest is their respective values.  From your description, I take it you got around $26K for it. That's only about half of what this dealer is asking for this black '67 LeMans.   With everything that was done it to it, your car is more GTO than it is Tempest and for someone with a budget in the mid-20's, that represents a pretty smart buy.  Totally different scenario with the LeMans.  The modifications done to this LeMans aren't that significant and they don't dramatically change the nature of the car like those done to that Tempest.  Yet, the $49K asking price would lead you to believe that this LeMans is:  A: an over-the-top factory correct restoration; or,  B: a highly modified, chromed-out, billet-bathed, LS1-motivated Poncho with a custom interior and an upgraded suspension.  This black '67 LeMans is neither. It's in between. It's like being in "no man's land" which, as anyone who's ever been in the military will confirm, is a place you never want to be.  Someone who gives anything close to $49K will pay a record price for a pretty pedestrian (though in nice shape) "one of none" '67 LeMans convertible for which, unlike your Tempest which was at a MUCH LOWER price point, demand isn't very strong - if it was, that LeMans would've sold by now.    

 

Regarding your "if you like it, just buy it regardless of the price" mantra, I can only assume you're a dealer.  Only a dealer would agree with that mentality.  The only other type of buyer who would blindly hand over his wallet to a seller is someone that has more money than sense .  .  .  .  those are the type of buyers that dealers prey on.  And, if you're telling me I should give zero consideration to what the car might sell for when I'm done with it, let me say I've seen plenty of dealers refuse to lift their reserve at auctions because the high bid was "less than" they had in the car.   So, it's not just us civilians who think that way.  Hey, I don't mind paying a reasonable premium if a car is very nice.  And yes, I have done that with other collector cars I've owned (this isn't my first rodeo).  But, at $49K, that represents a premium that most sane folks would consider unreasonable for this specific LeMans.  The $49K price for that car is a perfect example of the, "who's the greater fool" theory.  Like they say, there's a butt for every seat.  And, a dealer can afford to sit on a car for an eternity until that needle finally jumps out of the haystack.  But, the rest of the market usually doesn't operate that way which eventually will be abundantly clear to the guy who pays $49K for this LeMans.  Finally, you needn't worry that my life will be a dreary wasteland because I don't have this '67 LeMans sitting in my garage.  I'll be just fine knowing I wasn't the greater fool . . . the other guy was.   I'll find another car toy in which to get my "yah-yahs" out.

Edited by bosco001 (see edit history)
Link to comment
Share on other sites

You mistake what I'm saying. Yes, I'm a dealer. No, I don't prey on people's wallets and I kind of resent the suggestion and I'm sure my customers would, too--I don't consider any of them to be fools. Why would the guy who ultimately buys this Lemans be any less intelligent than the guy who bought that Tempest? The cost:benefit ratio worked for him, he could afford it, everyone went home happy. Isn't that how it always works, at every price point, on every car?

 

What I am saying (go read my posts again) is that if you like the car, and you think the price is fair, you should buy it. Nothing more, nothing less. I'm not suggesting that you're a sucker waiting to be taken, only that I watch a lot of guys unable to pull the trigger on a car they really want for reasons they can't quite articulate. I don't do hard sales, I don't particularly care if someone buys or doesn't buy, but as a hobbyist, I understand that it's fun you're buying, not an investment. Therefore, if you think you will have fun and the price of the fun is reasonable to you, then what's holding you back? You were interested in this car until the experts picked it apart, now you're not. It's still the same car, but now there's a cloud over it in your mind. So you'll skip this one and maybe find another. That's part of the fun, too.

 

My only point is that you, the buyer, are the only one who gets to decide what the right price is and what the right car might be.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Actually, he didn't ask for advice on the price. You gave that unsolicited and without qualifiers like the state of the economy or who the buyer might be. Why does that even matter?

 

And just so I have this straight: you'll discount the car in question $15,000 because of a few incorrect parts, but you won't lend your expertise to putting a price on my Tempest? Why? You said the '67 was wrong, and therefore was [much] less valuable. Why is my Tempest different?

 

Oh, wait, I don't think anyone would believe you if you told us that installing a 140-horsepower six, a 2-speed automatic, manual steering, and drum brakes would make it more valuable...

 

The point is, don't be afraid of modified cars, bosco. Buy what you like. Only you can decide if it's right for you and if the price is fair. Everyone else is just whistling in the wind.

There is more to this topic thread, but I'll go along.

You said;

You gave that unsolicited and without qualifiers like the state of the economy or who the buyer might be. Why does that even matter?

I interpret this as asking about price vs. the car any road if I did a unsolicited analysis it didn't bother Bosco001 ;

bosco001 said; But, with a $49,900 asking price, am I nuts to expect the car to be perfectly correct?

As said before we are talking about a 67 LeMans, and not the 65 Tempest. I think we should stay on topic.

Edited by helfen (see edit history)
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Why would the guy who ultimately buys this Lemans be any less intelligent than the guy who bought that Tempest?  I covered that in my previous post.

 

My only point is that you, the buyer, are the only one who gets to decide what the right price is and what the right car might be.   That's true if you live in a vacuum or until you go to sell it.  Or, have it appraised for insurance purposes.  Matt, I'm not trying to be argumentative.  And, if someone doesn't mind taking a major financial hit when they're done with a car or wants to move onto another, then that's fine.  But, before writing that check, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a buyer to at least consider what somebody else would pay for it at the end of the ride.  Anyone who deviates significantly from the market, does so at his own peril.

Edited by bosco001 (see edit history)
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The cost:benefit ratio worked for him, he could afford it, everyone went home happy. Isn't that how it always works, at every price point, on every car?  No, not really.  Let's use your Tempest as an example.  Buyer 1 pays $26K for it.  When he's done with it, he lists it for sale.  Using your figures, let's say he can only get half what he paid for it (ie. $13K).  So, he takes a hit of $13K.  Actually, if what you say is true and there were several buyers vying for this car, Buyer 1 may actually break even when he goes to sell.  Regarding this '67 LeMans convertible, Buyer 1 pays $49K.  Earlier, I said the car is worth $35K, but another poster estimated it at $25K.  So, let's split the difference and the most Buyer 2 will give is $30K.  That represents a loss of nearly $20K.   Yes, I'm making some assumptions here.  But, my point is that "price point" does matter in that it influences how much someone will pay.  And, as the price point increases, the number of potential buyers (ie., the size of the market) decreases.   Look at it this way .  .  . you jump out of a 2nd story window and someone may have to call the EMT's.   You jump out of a 10-story building and there's a good chance someone is calling the coroner.   The greater the price point, the greater the risk.  And, the level of risk influences the number of potential buyers and what they're willing to pay.

Edited by bosco001 (see edit history)
Link to comment
Share on other sites

bosco001 the questions you posed in your initial post follow, with my answers below each.  I do not consider myself an expert but have been in the Pontiac hobby awhile and have restored a couple of 60s Pontiacs and been to quite a few POCI Nationals, Ames Tripower Nationals in Norwalk, Ohio, and several auctions.  I helped judge at POCI a couple of years but that was on early 60s big cars.

 

1. with a $49,900 asking price, am I nuts to expect the car to be perfectly correct?

 

Asking price and "correctness" can be completely unrelated to one another.  A high quality street rodded car that is completely incorrect can sell for multiples of a 100% correct original that is

badly deteriorated and/or a 100% correct restoration that was poorly done.

 

2. BTW, is it proper for the LeMans nameplates on the rear fenders to be attached with rivets/fasteners that pop thru the truck walls?

 

I didn't watch the entire video but the "correct" quarter panel nameplates would have studs that go through the trunk walls, with nuts spun onto them.  No rivets though.

 

3. Was a simple trunk liner not even available?

 

Every Pontiac of that era would have come with a trunk mat.  I would have to look at '67 PMD reference materials to know if the higher end GTO and LeMans models also had additional

cardboard trunk interior components.

 

4. Which leads me to: "Who spends that much restoring a LeMans"?

 

There ARE 60s Tempests and LeMans that have been 100% concours restored to a high quality but not many; simply because the person who commisioned the restoration wil probably not

get their investment back in this lifetime.

5.  I'm just trying to figure out if this is a car I want to consider. Knowing just exactly what it is (or what it's trying to be) would be a good start.

 

I would not recommend that anyone spend anywhere near the asking price for that car unless it is exactly how they would want one done up, just the way it is, and they accept before they buy that they are more than likely never going to get their money back.  It would not be a "good start" for you IMO because it is already way over priced for someone with concerns about "correctness", which you seem to have, and anything additional that is done to the car after the initial purchase will just put you deeper in the hole.

 

FYI you can get a very nice, 100% correct, real GTO convertible for what they are asking for that car, or very nice, 100% correct, Tempest or LeMans convertibles for far less.  If you do not belong to POCI or GTOAA I would recommend you join them and watch the for sale ads in their magazines each month.  Or start going to the many auctions that occur all over the country each year and you will run across numerous, and nicely done/or maintained, mid 60s A body Pontiacs.  You can register with the big auction houses and see what will be going across the block before each auction.  Or just buy the big Hemmings and follow up on the ads placed by individuals.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

61-63,

Good information and appreciate your input. For me, when determining what I should pay for a car, it comes down simply to this. Could I turn around and realistically expect to sell it for the same price? (assumes adequate marketing effort and a reasonable marketing time). For this '67 LeMans, it sounds like your answer would be "no" and I would concur.

Edited by bosco001 (see edit history)
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...