Weld chipped teeth on starter ring gear?

[Jon37]

My starter occasionally jams on the starter ring gear, entailing loosening or removal of the starter each time, in order to free things up.

 

I got a new Bendix this summer but that didn't help. Everything seems to work okay.  But I discovered 2-3 chipped teeth (in a row) on the ring gear.  This could be where the problem lies.

 

Has anyone had success in building up chipped teeth by welding, and then grinding the weld down to simulate the adjacent tooth profiles?  Can one even weld this sort of thing (I assume it's hardened steel)?  The car is a 1937 Hudson Terraplane and I assume that the ring gear construction is similar to that of other cars of its era.

 

Replacement of the ring gear will possibly entail removal of the engine due to tight clearances between overdrive and frame.  A rather extensive undertaking, so I'd like to exhaust all other possible ideas first.

 

I'd be grateful for any thoughts on this.

 

Addendum:  Here's a photo of the chipped teeth.  Since posting this message, I've filed down the rough edges where the teeth were chipped, and have not had any jamming problems since then.  However, since installing the Bendix this summer, the starter gear often won't even engage the teeth, it simply spins freely when I push the button.   At the present time, I'm planning to take the starter and Bendix to a specialty starter shop I heard about, to get his opinion on whether the problem's with the starter, or the ring gear.

 

Edited November 22, 2015 by Jon37 (see edit history)

[mikewest]

Ive welded up the teeth and ground back with a die grinder. Take your time and it works great. Then if you feel like it sometimes you can turn the flywheel a a 1/2 or 1/4 th turn. Most motors stop I the same place and you will be starting in a new area! Good luck.

[Bhigdog]

I'm not sure the jamming is a function of the chipped teeth. I might try shimming or some other means to get a bit more tooth clearance or better alignment. I've been told building up new teeth on the ring gear was common practice back in the day. I think I saw a picture here of an old time gas station with a ring gear repair sign on it and a guy under a car with a O/A set...................Bob

[Rusty_OToole]

Have heard of turning the flywheel or even taking the ring gear off the flywheel and moving it. But that would require taking the flywheel off. If you could do that it would be better just to replace the ring gear.

[Jon37]

Thank you for your suggestions!

 

Can the welding be done with the gear on the car?  (If removal is necessary then, indeed, it would be foolish not to simply replace the gear with an NOS one.)

 

Rotating the flywheel would be difficult on the car, I think, plus my timing marks are on the flywheel, in this car. 

 

I'm not sure what to shim, for more clearance.  The Bendix sits out behind the flywheel and moves forward into it, when the starter's engaged.  It would seem, then, that there is nowhere to shim, because the starter's bolted to the front of the bellhousing and shimming it would only pull the Bendix tighter into the ring gear.

 

I've read somewhere that a temporary "fix" is to stall the engine when turning it off, so that the chipped teeth stop short of their normal stop position.

 

The other day when inspecting the chipped teeth, I felt a slight burr in the gap between teeth, so I took a fine fine and cleaned up all the chipped areas, thinking that the drive gear might have gotten jammed because of these.  I guess I'll find out sooner or later whether this solved my problem!

[Bhigdog]

Evidently "back in the day" the tooth welding was done in situ (in place). When I suggested shimming I'm thinking something is causing a misalignment between the drive and ring gear causing an interference jam. Maybe not but it seems to me if loosening the starter frees the "jam" it's an interference type situation............Bob

[Dave Henderson]

A friend with a high point Jaguar has the same problem. The engine would always stop in the same bad old place.  Fixing it "right" is a big deal, so he merely guns the engine a bit before shutting it down, and seldom has any trouble.  I've also observed the owner of a rough old Chevy rotating the engine a bit by turning the alternator when it gets stuck.  Not a good idea to use the fan blades for turning. 

[Guest Al Brass]

Years ago, when parts were hard to get here in NZ, we built up the worn area of ring gears with welds but always rotated the ring gear so that the soundest teeth were where the engine always came to a stop (i doubt this resting place would alter, regardless of what revs the engine was doing when the ignition was cut).  This wouldn't be imperative but desirable.  My advice would be to give it a go and see what happens.

 

Regards

Al

[jpage]

In the old days when a mechanic would weld the teeth , he probably used gas. I would not recommend electric welding the flywheel in place due to the chance of damaging other parts. Depending on where the welder is grounded, current could flow through parts like bearings or  gears and flash weld them together, or send current back through the electrical system.

[Guest Rp1967]

Don't know how your ring gear is mounted on the fly wheel but many types can be removed and turned around so the "fresh " side of the teeth face the starter.

[JACK M]

_{If your timing marks are on the flywheel it is not likely that you will be able to rotate it on its mounting, there is probably one hole that is a bit off from the others.}

_{If welding electrically ground at the flywheel and unhook the battery.}

_{It may be one of those what have you got to lose kind of deal, so hope for the best and prepare for the worst.}

[Bud Tierney]

In my misspent years, with our old jalopies, we used to disengage a stuck starter by putting it in high and gently rocking the car....

Then turning the engine a bit with the fan belt let it fire up...believe had the problem with  (among others) a 34 Terrapieces  with a very worn axleflex? front end that was really an adventure to drive off pavement (steady as a rock on pavement)...

[Curti]

This man sells flywheel ring gears reasonably. He is a straight shooter.

 

Al Suehring 100589 Krogwold Road Amherst Junction WI 54407 715-677-3809   flywheels al@suehring.com

[cahartley]

Al is a friend and "sort of" neighbor just down the road.

My dad welded some ring gear teeth on a car he owned but we were in the welding business so it wasn't that big a deal for him.

The upside is he did it only once which indicates it worked out fine.

[Guest packardman71]

Hey Jon!  I had this exact same problem on my '51 Packard.  It would hang up about every other time I ran it.  Probably happeded a dozen times over the course of 3 months.  Like you I had three or four chipped teeth that had burrs on them.  I also decided to file away the burrs and smooth things out, thinking that this was causing the starter to hang.  It has been about 6 months now since I did that and the problem hasn't recurred.  I would definitely try that easy fix first.  Hope it works for you!

[Jon37]

Thanks, Packardman, I'm hoping that this simple "fix" might solve my problem.

 

Meanwhile, I was advised by someone to lube the spiral gear on the starter shaft -- that's hidden under the Bendix until you hit the starter.  I protested that I had heard that you WEREN'T supposed to lube that part, because it would attract dirt.  However, he convinced me to shoot a little graphite in there so, since graphite's "dry", I decided to give it a try.  (The other half of my problem is that the starter often just free-spins when I punch the starter button, again and again, often engaging the ring gear after 8 or 10 tries. So, maybe a little graphite would help that.  Otherwise, I found the spiral gear absolutely dry and clean when I examined it.)

 

It's a wait and see game now.  No sense in paying someone to weld and file the gears, if the problem goes away.

[Spinneyhill]

Dry graphite is a the bottom of the galvanic series. In humid conditions, expect the steel it is in contact with to rust.

 

Oil is a wetting agent and will attract dust. Grease is not a wetting agent and does not attract dust at anything like the same rate.

Edited October 23, 2015 by Spinneyhill (see edit history)