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Judging HPOF Original


Ricko1937
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I was sitting with my car at Hershey in the HPOF Original class and I heard the gentlemen beside me say that everything on his car was original except he had the seats redone this summer. It made me think that if someone has changed things on there original car can they be demoted out of this class. How do the judges look at that.

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The Guidelines actually encourage an owner who has started restoring their vehicle to surrender their HPOF badge and go for a First Junior in points judging.  Not knowing the vehicle you are speaking of, I would guess that if all the rest of the car were left original, except for seat covers, it could still be evaluated as HPOF Original.

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I believe the guidelines state something to the effect that a certain percentage of the car should be original, thus if you had an unrestored interior and running gear, but a repaint, it would still qualify.

 

At least one car in the HPOF area baffled me, as it very obviously had a newer interior and paint job, but won't name the car nor further comment.

 

My Cord phaeton was repainted poorly in the early 60's, retains over 50% of it's original interior, and has never been "restored" mechanically, just maintained.  I've wondered how it would fit in HPOF.

 

I've attached a picture of it, I assure you it's not in as good condition as the picture would indicate...all there, I sweep paint chips off the floor around it as it peels, runs and drives fine.....all that said, I like it, as have others...

post-76888-0-43926000-1444685256_thumb.j

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  • 2 weeks later...

And in keeping the the spirit I would say a car that is 90% original is worth saving as is. Say something fell on the hood of a car and it had to be repainted. If it was a pretty rare original car then we'd want the car to be saved but it would be hard to expect the owner to drive around with an unfortunate dent in an otherwise original and well preserved car.

 

 

A vehicle may be entirely “original” or it may have certain original features such as paint, chassis, upholstery, engine compartment, etc. that are essentially as delivered. 
Judging 4.3-4.4

It would be nice if known items that had been replaced be documented so that as the car changes hands it's known for some certainty what is original and what has been redone, but that would probably be quite a burden. 

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In my HPOF CJE (Continuing Judges Education) seminar, I always say that basically, our evaluations should be very easy.  It's either original, or it's not, right?  In fact we have to use a great deal of judgement, taking into consideration that many cars would need repairs, mechanical and cosmetic, during their service life.  At a minimum, we have maintenance--what it takes to keep the car running and safe to drive.  Next is preservation--what's needed to keep the car from deteriorating.  Then comes restoration--bringing the car back to its' (hopefully) original condition and specification (and ready for class judging.)  Clearly, there is no easily delineated line that separates one from the next.  And that's why our evaluations cannot be performed by robots. 

Our current program allows us to certify and include cars that have had some work, including repaints or upholstery work and gain their HPOF badge.  Only the more unmolested cars can then be certified AACA Original.  I discourage any certification of cars that have repaints that are either color changes or have received a "show car" highly polished finish.  Most of the cars in class judging have been repainted to a far higher level of finish than any mass-produced car ever saw, making it all the more difficult for judges on the show field.

Roger Irland

Chair HPOF Team

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"  It's either original, or it's not, right?" 

 

Roger Irland

Chair HPOF Team

 

This statement depends on how you define "original". I have a 1963 car that I bought new and since I knew that I would be keeping it I purchased many new parts from dealers while parts were available. For example, I have a complete set of new hubcaps that are still in the wrapping that they were in when purchased. If I put these on the car would they be considered original or not?  If you take a a very narrow view (see discussion of this point in Dr. Simeone's book) they would not be considered original since they were not on the car when purchased; however, these are correct original hubcaps for the car. If a damaged or rusty bumper is replaced by an excellent bumper taken off a parts car is it original or not?

 

What is original?

Edited by A. Ballard 35R (see edit history)
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There certainly is value to original meaning "as delivered" vs "unrestored correct parts". Original as delivered can preserve errors and mistakes. While not as prevalent in newer vehicles, it can also help keep track of rolling changes. Another thought I have is when was the first automotive recall? A part replaced under recall would not be original or correct as delivered, but would be okay under the safety guidelines, though I often wonder if there will ever be a market for unrecalled versions of things. An engineer would certainly enjoy seeing the progress of parts as they evolve. 

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Roger travels a lot so if he does not respond immediately there is good reason.  One of our past VP's of Judging used a Phrase "Common Sense Judging".  There may be no way an owner would know if a part had been replaced during pre-delivery, no way of knowing that 60 or 70 years ago or so someone replaced a bumper, etc. Putting back a part that was on a recall would not be smart as there were good reasons for those recalls.  In many cases the parts looked the same as the original.  So, it seems to ME that a judge has to use common sense and evaluate the car as presented.  You wouldn't demand that the original oil and gas were in the car would you? :) 

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Just as I would not expect to reject a car that did not have original air in its' tires, I wouldn't reject a car that had pieces replaced with better originals.  How would you expect our judges to determine that you had replaced the as-delivered wheel covers with NOS?  Any pieces that had been replated or refinished would likely stand out from the rest of a car that showed the patina of age.  We rely on the owner to tell us what is not original when they fill out the judging sheet.  What I think is important is that these cars that we certify as HPOF or AACA Original have significant (HPOF) or very significant (AACA Original) historical information that is worth preserving for the future.

Regards,

Roger Irland

Chair HPOF Certification Team

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  • 4 weeks later...

I'm in agony over what to do with my 1953 Buick Roadmaster wagon. I bought it 30 years ago as an extremely complete restoration project. Being a non-runner, it went into the back corner of my then new garage. And over the years it was buried with other projects and parts. With life passing by too fast, many of those projects were sold so I could get back to my core interests - my 40 Special and 53 Woodie Buicks. The wagon was unburied and set up on jack stands a couple years ago, and I was STUNNED at how original it was, and VERY thankful that I had not started restoration as planned. I believe it's currently about 95+% factory original. My current goal is to get it running well enough for local cruise nights, and to be able to drive it onto a trailer and onto a show field. But even in this process, I'm destroying some originality.

I know that it's my choice to do what I want with it. I'm a historian at heart and it would drive me crazy to restore this car, but my big quandary is what to do with the wood. Even though it's been in dry storage for approx 40 years, it was stored outside long enough for the finish to completely disintegrate, and I have the typical wood rot at the bottom of the rear corners and lower rear sill. So as it sits, I don't believe the wood has ever been re-sanded, which fascinates me, but I dare not get it wet. It also has traces of the factory decals that were used for the mahogany-grain accents. In the 40 years I've been actively persuing every opportunity to look a last-generation Buick woodies, I've only seen two cars with original mahogany-grain decals intact. I believe there are a couple more that I've not seen, but it's usually the first thing that is restored along with filling loose wood joints and splices and then sanding and finishing.

With the goal of reaching AACA Original status, I would appreciate thoughts and comments about how to proceed with this car. Fortunately, I have a second one that I can restore for practical use, and my current goal for this one will be a mildly modified car capable of towing. However, one of my questions in proceeding with these wagons is if it's ethical to harvest some better original wood from the second car to upgrade rotted pieces on the original car.

Edited by Buick Bruce (see edit history)
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I have a 1909 Oakland 20B that had one paint job in the 50s. The rest is original, but the leather is ripped on the front seat and some of the inside material is now coming out. Is there an acceptable repair to keep the car HPOF? I want to be able to tour the car without destroying the seat. The attached pic is from when the car was on exhibit at the Hershey museum. Thanks! Jordan

post-145576-0-66931200-1448488448_thumb.

Edited by Attitude928 (see edit history)
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On the Buick wagon question above, replacing rotten wood pieces with solid wood from your second Buick would retain factory parts.  I would consider revarnishing the wood acceptable maintenance, since the factory call for this to be done at periodic intervals.  I would not take deductions for either of these.

 

If the leather on the 1909 Oakland is ripped but can be stitched together, that would be my first choice to keep it from futher deteriation.  If it can not be repaired, I would recommend reupholstering the bad seat panel, leaving as much original as possible.  If you go the route of complete reupholstering of the front and rear seats, the car may still qualify for the AACA HPOF award, depending on how many other deductions are made by the judges.

 

An important thing to remember is that the HPOF awards are for cars retaining significant "Original Features".  The reason that a car that has had some upholstery work or a repaint can still receive the award is that it sill retains enough original features to still provide historical information for the future.

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With regard to the Buick woodie, does not the owners manual specify that the wood be refinished on a regular basis?  That would be normal maintenance.  To replace badly rotted pieces could be justified as preserving the structural integrity of the body, though it borders on restoration.  I think I would opt for preservation of the structure.  That alone wouldn't preclude its HPOF certification,  if the rest of the car measures up.

For the Oakland, a careful repair of the original material or a replacement with a good match would fall closer to maintenance/preservation than restoration.  That shouldn't hurt its evaluation in the context of the car as a whole.

Cheers,

Roger Irland

HPOF Chair

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Like George Washington's hatchet? Head changed twice, handle 3 times but it's still Washington's hatchet. "Maintained" and "repaired are two different concepts. I would maintenance delayed 50 years could more accurately be called repair or restoration rather than maintenance. Splitting hairs I know, must be my training in archaeology.

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