wood in doors

[Jack Bennett]

On 10/1/2015 at 3:52 PM, 22touring said:

FMF wrote: in 1922 "Dodge Brothers also launched the first all-steel car in the industry, a business coupe"

 

How can this possibly be true when even the first production touring cars were all-steel? I like the Allpar.com site very much, and Dave Zatz is a really nice guy, but he's not a DB historian and he rather obviously relied upon an incorrect source.

 

Near Choclatown wrote: "The car in the picture is in my garage. Sequential body number is 9285",

 

That proves nothing, since all DB chassis were sequentially numbered, including the many bare chassis with cowl that were sold to specialty body builders.

 

Let us not forget some well-known facts.

DB employee Fred J. Lamborn, personal assistant to John Dodge, kept personal, contemporaneous notes on changes in production as a reference record for himself. Lamborn's notes were preserved by the Chrysler Historical Collection, and Don Butler reviewed them in detail when he wrote his series of 5 articles on the history of the 4-cylinder cars.

Until 1925 it had always been a DB selling point that its cars had all-steel bodies. In fact, the Brothers had felt quite strongly about the issue. However in 1925, when the company was controlled by Dillon, Read, there was a management shake-up resulting from production failing to meet demand. Dillon, Read demanded the higher net profits that would result from increased production, and the bottleneck was always body production.

This is not to say that there were not lots of DB-based cars manufactured by specialty builders prior to 1925 that featured sheet metal over wood construction. Some of those were:

The H.H. Babcock and Co. formal car, town brougham, four-passenger victoria and limousine
The Lang Body Co. Four-Passenger coupe and four-door close-coupled sedan
The Stratton-Bliss Co. formal car
The Colt-Stratton landaulet

However, McPherson notes (at p. 48) that even when DB was buying Coach and Sedan bodies from Fisher body in 1925 and 1926, they continued to make about 400 all-steel sedans every day at the Hamtramck factory.

And Butler states, at p. 46 of Part I of his series, that the sedan introduced in 1917 was built by Budd; on p. 52 that the 1918 sedan was built by Budd; and on p. 56 that the 1919 sedan was built by Budd.

On March 1, 1924 three sales executives resigned in protest over the factory's failure to meet production demand. According to Butler, this departure dealt a serious blow to the company and caused a great deal of concern among the directors of the corporation. At the July meeting of the corporation's Board, Russell Huff, the company's chief engineer, was elected director to replace Howard Bloomer, who had been personal counsel to the Dodge Bros. before their death and had been appointed a director after their deaths in 1920. Bloomer had always refused to manufacture wood-bodied cars because he knew the Brothers had never liked them, but Bloomer's resignation and Huff's appointment, coupled with Dillon, Read's insistence, swung the balance. DB signed a contract with Fisher body in order to increase production, and DB announced the Coach at the New York auto show in January, 1925.

Even so, DB's distaste for wood bodies made them work even harder to increase production of all-steel bodies in the factory, so by the end of 1926 the Fisher-bodies cars were phased out.

Had DB been making wood-bodied cars prior to 1925, there would have been no reason for the DB faithful to have deplored the 1925 introduction of the Fisher wood-bodied cars as they did.  Read the trade journals of the day.



 

Just to be clear, this is the body of my 1923 Dodge Brothers Roadster, most assuredly, and totally verifiable as being a “all metal body”……which is only partially true. 
The car has metal springs on the seat bottom, but the seat back and all attachment points for the top are wood.

And, just to continue the argument as to when the use of wood, or another fiber material was discontinued for use in attaching upholstery, well, if it were not for the fiber strips built into my 1951 Plymouth Cambridge, there would be no trim or upholstery in the car.

[22touring]

I was wrong again, Jack!  DB bought 1,500 wood-framed bodies from the Wilson Carriage Co. during its first year of production because they couldn't get enough all-steel bodies from Budd.  Nearchoc Doug set me straight on this.

[JACK M]

The original question had to do with doors and door frames.

As for the wood in the roofs and floor boards, I don't really see these as part of the body structure.

[Jack Bennett]

On 12/19/2023 at 9:04 AM, JACK M said:

The original question had to do with doors and door frames.

As for the wood in the roofs and floor boards, I don't really see these as part of the body structure.

I will spare the other members of the forum the ocular overload by not posting several photographs of the 1929 Fargo Express panel truck that I am presently ministering to.

This truck is more associated with DeSoto and Plymouth, being a victim of the Chrysler Corp buyout of the Dodge Brothers company.

But, the cab, body, roof and chassis is 99% wood and less than .01% metal.

So, what does this have to do with the amount of wood being used in the construction of a antique car?

Not one single thing, but it is the same sort of banter, between old car buffs, on a forum called “Antique Automobile CLUB of America, to which people pay dues to talk about antique cars, and wood qualifies as a viable subject.

Remember when Sarge put Beetle Bailey on Artillery duty?

I do…..and as a professional soldier I took offense at the ignorance of military process they used to make fun of a serious military activity.

No Sergeant ever put a Private in charge of a piece of artillery.

And no Private has ever been so stupid that he put a artillery shell in the gun backwards, and no artillery gun ever went “MOOB” when it fired backwards either.

And no person, soldier or otherwise, could not appreciate the humor and would have lied had they said they didn’t appreciate the satire.

Along this line of talk though…….that is, people sharing a common interest through satire……

When I undertook the project of returning the interior and roof of the 1927 Willys Knight I had adopted to some state of dignity, I was dumbstruck when I discovered the number of different types of wood they used in the construction of this old car.

I have a friend who will never see 95 years of age again, and he has absolutely NO interest in cars, old, new, custom or boring, but when he saw my Willys project his eyes lit up and he exuded the interest a young man showed at his first Playboy magazine encounter.

Talk cars………?………….Nope, pistons, rod bearings, camshafts and compression ratios were not in his vocabulary.

But, saws, planes, squares and joints were. This fellow gave me a understanding of why different species of wood was used in the construction of different body parts of the car, and I had gained a better understanding of why wheels are hickory, and the roof supports are oak, than if I had just completed a Masters Degree program, in wood work at Penn State or UCLA.

NO, he did not give me a Chilton or Motor’s Manual, but he gave me a book which reminds me that not all books I need for my hobby are related to transmissions and steering gears, nor, every friend I need to thoroughly enjoy the hobby are gear heads.

Looking forward to the day you can make a sojourn into Western Washington and we can argue about our obsession over dinner and a beer.

[JACK M]

Lots of wood in the truck that I will be parting out. Not even good for patterns.

Its the early Dodge cars that bring up the subject of all steel bodys.

[Jack Bennett]

1 minute ago, JACK M said:

Lots of wood in the truck that I will be parting out. Not even good for patterns.

Its the early Dodge cars that bring up the subject of all steel bodys.

I think you hit the nail on the head. Were I to concentrate my angst of “All metal bodies” on the 1923 Dodge Brothers Roadster I play with, I would have bought some knitting needles or some crossword puzzle books rather than Bondo and paint.

The previous fellow the car owned had started a frame-off restoration of the car. However, it appears that he ran out of good metal to repair, and resorted to some, professionally applied, body putty repairs.

As time has passed, the rusted, and hole rich metal has began its return to the state it selected when it decided to revert to being a mineral (rust) other than a material (metal).

The simple act of sitting in my garage, subjected to nothing more than expansion from being cool, and contraction, from being warm, and the sweat of condensation consequence, has revealed rust lines where welds were made on rusted metal and Bondo was used to cover the injury.

We can talk about the virtues of a “all metal body” if there is enough metal to add credibility to its use, and we can talk about the amount of wood used, wherever, in a car if there is any wood remaining to demonstrate the wisdom of using it as a structural material.

And then comes people like us who really don’t care because we will never depend on either the wood or metal for our bread, butter or house payment, and the more that is rotted, the greater the assurance we will still have a hobby years from now.

[Jack Bennett]

On 12/19/2023 at 9:04 AM, JACK M said:

The original question had to do with doors and door frames.

As for the wood in the roofs and floor boards, I don't really see these as part of the body structure.

In the same manner I was foolish enough to buy the Fargo, I am still interested in the truck project you have adopted.

I do wonder, however, how a project the size of a truck can be looked at without some pang of remorse, or at least the thought of WTH was I thinking.

But, since you have the truck, and I have the Fargo, we have a training aid to use in the acquisition of further knowledge regarding reanimation of these beasts.

I will use your comment regarding the fact you “really don’t see these (doors) as bing part of the body structure”.

Well Sir, I am in the middle of reconstructing the doors of the Fargo, and I might disagree that the doors, and the weight of the wood used in their construction, most assuredly, affect the other structural components of the truck.

My primary goal now is to reinforce the wooden parts of the cowl, and cab, of the Fargo to add a bit of surety that the weight of the doors do not, as before, destroy the integrity of the attachments which affix the cab to the frame.

A single door takes some effort by two people just to move. In my dotage, I can drag a door from point A to point B, with only a single beer break in the interim, but I choose to do it first thing in the morning, when I have peak energy, or last thing in the evening, when I have all night to recover from the exertion.

I am committing the Cardinal sin of replacing the Oak wood structure of the doors with construction grade Fir, to lessen weight, and the humongous safety glass windows, which are no more than memories, will be replaced with plexiglass replicas. 
Even with this amount of technological magic, and a heaping helping of modern alchemy, I still have concerns that (check it out) the FOUR hinges will still support the weight of the door, because it is spread over the height of the same stanchion which supports the cowl, the windshield and the roof is also made of sheet metal clad wood.

So, the doors may not be considered as structurally important. But, the potential they have to destroy the integrity of other structural important parts of the car must be considered.

And, please, remember that what I say is just a matter of opinion, and I mean no personal effrontery when I say it. I have colloquially, educational, intellectual and age related limitations to the way I say something. 
And the choice of words I choose to include in my space, and attention span, limited posts are also limited to the words available, and commonly used in the English language.

And, considering this, and the world situation, it is so glorious to live in a nation in which people can talk gibberish without fear of making someone mad, or having the guys in black knocking on our doors🤪.

 

Edited January 4 by Jack Bennett (see edit history)

[Jack Bennett]

Regardless of the number of years one may wonder, all doubts of how stupid a person may be is instantly erased the second they open their mouth.

Considering this, “Silence is golden for some, it is the only refuge for others”.

[JACK M]

Yes, "pang of remorse". I hate to part this thing out, but this truck is beyond repair.

The previous owner was selling his place and came to realize this and didn't have the time or wherewithal to scrap it or the time to offer up pieces that someone else might want or need.

So I was the sucker....

Most of the parts are so heavy that it would make no sense to try to ship and not be into said parts for much more that they could possibly be worth.

If no one here in the NW needs some of this stuff it may become of future use in the form of an imported sh*t box. Maybe three or four of them.

 

On another note, I am curious about finding the VIN on the chassis. Anyone know that location?

Its a 30-33 two or three ton Dodge truck.

[JACK M]

Actually, the owner represented it as a 1928 three ton truck.

I got the manual that he bought for it that is for 30-32. 

[Jack Bennett]

Oh……but isn’t it great that we have lived long, and well enough, that we can afford to follow our impulses and do questionable stuff like this?

I, personally, could afford to buy a completely, and professionally, refurbished 1928-1929-19whatever Fargo panel truck. 
Or, I could have the truck taken to a professional, and paid them in money, to return a like new, old, Fargo truck.
That is, if I really needed a 1929-whatever panel truck to begin with.

But, the second I stop seeing value far beyond a classy set of seat cushions, or a chrome exhaust tip, I’m ready to enter that huge garage in the sky, where the sound of a well tuned engine can always be heard.

I suspect, had I not bought the Fargo, you would have. 
I procrastinated for weeks, or maybe it was just days which seemed like weeks, about buying the truck. And I convinced myself, beyond any doubt, that I did not need another reclusive reprobate of a junk pile, which would never be of any use, sitting, mildewing, rusting and rotting in my yard.

I was absolutely certain that I had plenty to do with my other antique cars, truck and tractor, and I swore that I would put the Fargo out of my mind.

Like Midas, I done a virtual count of my gold coins, and I had decided they would be better spent for a new Ram pickup, with lots of bells and whistles, or maybe a new Outback with a remote controlled back hatch and was self driving.

But, after several long talks with my dog (Boo), my old Willys, Dodge, Plymouth, tractor, Ford pickup, and Archie, (my car hauler trailer) I was coerced into calling the guy with the Fargo, and at least make him a offer on the truck. That was the civil thing to do……right……? And the pot was sweetened in my favor since I KNEW he would reject the offer.

Well, he didn’t and I was faced with the possibility that I would be labeled a scam artist and a liar. So, I called my buddy and asked him if he considered making a 400 mile trip, to pick up a old, junky, truck a adventure.

He said “sure”, and we needed a adventure, and if the truck came home with us it was no more than  divine providence.

Not being overly religious, but not wanting to incur the wrath of any deity either, that removed all doubt that I should at least make the trip to visit the truck.

Glory be! We had good traffic and fair weather all the way to Chehalis, my old F-250 ran superbly, the trailer trailed remarkably well, and I took all this as a sign that the old Fargo needed to find a permanent home.

Considering the nature of the hobby, that is OLD car restoration, and the more restoration the OLD car needs, the better the investment, from a sheer “hobby” perspective, the Fargo is a pot of gold so far as potential for continuing work is concerned. 
Your big OLD truck is a testament to the fact that you have obtained, and can still do things which may be considered odd, but are literally impossible, for a less mature and half baked person to do.

And, while you may have bought the entire crop, one ear of corn at a time, and I bought the whole farm as a lot, we both have the privilege of deciding whether we will eat corn meal muffins for dinner, or save it for pop corn as a snack afterwards. 
Myself, I like to spend as much time talking about my old cars, and shopping for parts to fix them, as I actually spend time working on them.

[Jack Bennett]

22 hours ago, JACK M said:

Actually, the owner represented it as a 1928 three ton truck.

I got the manual that he bought for it that is for 30-32. 

I know you live in Oregon, and I live in (the other) Washington.

And I know that our DMV’s handle licensing and titles of vehicles different.

But, it sounds like you bought the truck without a title, perhaps I’m wrong here, but I did buy the Fargo without a title.

And, from what I understand the VIN of more than a few Dodge, and Dodge related vehicles were identified by a small aluminum tag, with the VIN printed on it, affixed to the dash panel in the vicinity of the drivers left knee.

I was also informed that Dodge Brothers and their future owners also manufactured some trucks which weren’t even numbered of titled, and were manufactured for export only……..as was mentioned in regards to the Fargo EXPRESS, as compared to a conventionally constructed Fargo (no Express) truck.

Regardless,, Washington State law dictates that I have the truck inspected by a Washington State Patrol inspection station and have them give the truck a assigned VIN before I can submit a request to be issued, even, a title where ownership is in doubt, or a junk title.

A stipulation here is that the linage of the vehicle must be documented for a junk title, and a receipt must be shown for every part used to refurbish a car seeking a bonded title.

I may never drive the Fargo, and I surely will never sell it, but having a title is the way I do things.

Bottom line is, if you do have a title for the truck, will you sell it?

Edited January 5 by Jack Bennett (see edit history)

[JACK M]

No title unfortunately.

And the cab is basically totaled (rotten). I will be pulling the remains off of my trailer when I can get a hand, but I doubt there will be any tags.

I would do some chassis grinding in an effort to find numbers, but it is so rusted, and I don't know exactly where to look.

 

There seemed to be some confusion as to the exact year. I will take a look at the engine number when I get that unloaded as well.

 

There are a few items that would have some value, to me anyway. that I would hang on the wall if nothing else. But I am sure that most of it will be "come and take it" stuff. Just need an afternoon helper.

 

The rolling (except for the LR wheel is stuck) chassis will be the first thing to go and the local scrapper will take it if no one else steps up.

So, if anybody wants the wheels, brake parts, springs, ft bumper, etc. Come and bring your tools. Or I could deliver the whole thing if a deal is struck.

 

 

I will be posting stuff in the for-sale threads eventually.