several topics

[Guest]

The president's message of my latest bulletin dealt with the fact that the CCCA has spent a lot of money trying to trademark the terms "Full Classic" and "Modified Classic" Now the board of directors has given this up due to mounting legal costs. <P>First I'll say as a 12 year member of the CCCA, I think this was a total waste of money in the first place. I have met very few members the last year or so who thought this was worth fighting for. <P>I am a purist, and believe no more postwar cars should be accepted into the CCCA, but I do agree in having pre 1925 cars accepted.<P>I would like to know how much the club spent on these legal fees. I think a better use of the money would have been for the club to offer life memberships to members under the age of 40 at a discounted price. I am under 40 years old, and was planning on becoming a life member after 10 years, but then the board of directors decided to raise the price, about one year before my tenth year; so I said the hell with it. I believe almost every board member who voted for the increase was already a life memebr, so they were not affected by the price hike. <BR>Sounds like congress huh?<P>Every car I own is a CCCA recognized classic, however I will admit that I do not need the CCCA to enjoy my cars. If more postwar cars are accepted, I will have to seriously consider whether I want to rejoin the CCCA. There are plenty of other clubs out there for high quality, pre war cars ONLY. The Marmon Club, H H Franklin Club, ACD Club, and Stutz Club immediatly come to mind.<BR>All of these clubs are more family oriented than the CCCA (especially the Franklin Club)<BR>and their meets are generally more moderatly priced. The Franklin Club stays at Cazenovia College each year & a family of 4 can participate in the week long meet for under $1000! <P>As a young person who will be starting a family soon, I will be more active car clubs that:<BR>1. concentrate mainly on high quality pre war cars.<BR>2. recognize that not every member is a millionaire; and price their meets accordingly.<P>The latest meet at Kalamazoo is a perfect example of how complicated the CCCA has to make things. There was a GC on Saturday & a Concours on Sunday. I guess they wanted people to register seperatly for both meets, but I talked with several people who were confused by this. On Sunday morning, the powers that be threatened one guy that if he didn't cough up more money he would have to move his car behind one of the barns, and there were actually 2 Stutzes parked way off in the distance because they didn't register in time or something like that. Loosen up guys! Who cares! If the guy brought a car, you should be happy its there & welcome him with open arms. <P>I have news for you, the above example is not the way to attract younger members. I have seen many pictures from 1950's meets, both national & regional and it looks like people just went there to have fun. There was no judging, people didnt have to get all dressed up, and every car was driven to the meet. Bring back the old days! Please! From all the old timers I have talked to, they say it was much more fun back then. <P>Here's to bringing back the good old days!

[Guest]

I agree...cant imagine WHAT our current Board was thinking of trying to get some "right" to the word "classic". Sure it was the correct word to indicate which cars we felt were worth celebrating within the confines of this particular club.<P>But...that was nearly FIFTY YEARS AGO. The country, the culture, the language has changed. We were far more successful than we could ever have imagined in the early years, making the concept of the classic car attractive. As I noted earlier, we changed the concept of enjoying old cars from an oddity, to something stylish, something to copy and emulate, so much so, that by the mid-1960's, even Detroit was using the word to help sell NEW cars...!<P>We have seen in here how many people these days, even people inside the CCCA, dont really LIKE those "biggest of the big...best of the best...monster-engined arrogant luxury cars of the late 1920's and 1930's. One of our "chatters" here frankly and candidly admitted he thinks big Packards are "stodgy"...much prefers more "stylish' but less elegant cars.<P>Given the trends of these days, I suggest we have fun with our classics, make fun of those who dont "get it", and ..well...just have FUN. <P>Anyone who wants to know how far the public will go with the word "classic" these days, needs only to open up a current issue of one of the hot-rod magazines. Even my '91 Suburban is a "classic"....!<P>It's free country...they can say what they want...and so can we....! Now...back to the important things in life ...just where DID I put that BRITNEY SPEARS Dance Video...<P>Pete Hartmann

[Shawn Miller]

It is unfortunate that we live in such a litigious society that getting a trademark has now become an extremely expensive ordeal, and one that is fraught with uncertainty. I would not blame the BOD for this, but rather the attorneys who evidently didnt prepare the BOD for what the costs would be, and the likelihood of its approval.<P>I applaud them for cutting their losses and moving on.<P>Having been through this myself getting it is only the beginning, the real costs lie in enforcing it once you have it! HA!<P>As for lowering the costs of family attendace i agree that this needs to be addressed if one of our goals is to increase the number of members/participants in the under 50 crowd. <P>I still think that the club isnt broke and doesnt need fixed generally speaking.<P>Finally I agree with one thing Peter said, and that is that we should try at all times to just have fun, since this is a hobby afterall, and life is too short for hobbies that aren't fun. This is especially true of this forum!<P>Shawn Miller<BR>Indiana Region

[Guest]

Hi Shawn:<P>You raise an interesting question in pointing out how difficult it is to afford to attend a really elegant event. We've been kicking this issue over since the first days of the CCCA.<P>There is no easy solution, given the conflicting problems. The argument over this issue became so rancorous, it was one of the major reasons why the So. Calif. Region "split off" from "National" and became a separate car club, not returning to "Region" status until around 1958.<P>You may well get an ironic laugh out of the fact that the very issues we toss around in here today, are the same ones we did battle with from the first days of the Club.<P>During that period of time we in the west had "split off" from "National', we had still another "split", again, in part over the high cost and "snobbery" of our meets ! And we had a relatively small, but VERY noisy bunch of guys with beautifully restored Model "A" Fords, Packard "120"s and the like, who thought we were real "back sides of a horse" for telling them it was time for them to go start their own Club, or being "heavier iron" to our events. They correctly pointed out, in one case, how beautiful a nicely painted freshly re-conditioned Model "A" was, especailly compared to my STODGY Packard Twelve....which sorely needed a new top, as well as a paint job....! THIS WAS IN 1956 !<P>As a young kid in those days, I had to mow a lot of lawns, work a lot of late hours as an apprentice in a machine shop, in order to just buy GAS for my "stodgy old chicken coop"...so going to an elegant "top dollar" event was pretty rough...I did not go very often...but I DID go..<P>Bottom line...this particular Club...like it or not...does center its attention on the most elegant.."arrogant" if you will...cars of a particular era. ONE of the many things we can do with our classics, is drive them to some kind of event that reflects that era. That means spending LOTS of money. Of COURSE we can have events that do not wipe out a budget for six months; when I was active in Region mangement, we tried to have BOTH.<P>Like many things in life....it seems the older we get...the less answers we have...these days..I am not even sure what the questions are any more....!<P>Pete Hartmann

[Guest Chuck Conrad]

I think it is fair to point out that the current Board of Directors had nothing to do with the attempt to trademark the Full Classic and Modified Classic terms. It was done before most of us were elected. <P>Speaking personally, I was much less than enthusiastic about those terms when I first heard about them. I was just a civilian member at the time. To put it bluntly I didn't like them then, and I don't like them now. At the time, I even wrote the Board a letter expressing my view that this idea was silly to pursue. Obviously, my advice was not taken. In the near future, I predict you will notice that these terms will be given a quick and (hopefully) silent burial.<P>Although the proposal for the name originated in a previous Board, I?m not sure you can even blame them. It seems they were mislead. They were told that the trademark process wouldn?t cost very much and would be relatively easy to do. Subsequent reports were that all was on track and it was just a matter of time before the trademarks would receive their official Registered status. In the mean time, we were instructed to keep using the ?TM? on all our publications. I did my part; you?ll note that ?TM?s are all over the Web Site.<P>It wasn?t until we recently started getting huge bills from the attorneys that a red flag was raised. I can?t tell you off hand the exact figure of this waste of money. I can tell you that you could buy an entry level Classic car with it. These funds would have been much better spent on activities, publications, or maybe better not spent at all. <P>The good news is we aren?t going to spend any more money on this.<BR> <BR>As for the Hickory Corners event, despite the confusion about registration, I think you have to say it was a great success. We will learn from our mistakes, and the registration hassle will not happen again. I can only apologize for other people who were not willing to be a little flexible when it became obvious that there was indeed a problem.<P>I was one of the guys who pushed very hard to get this event to happen, along with Dave Mitchell, Tom St. Martin, and the rest of the people who are part of the Club?s ?Long Range Planning Committee.? We are known as ?The Trouble Makers,? because we ask ?Why not?? We suggested this combined event some time ago, but were told that it would not work. ?We?ve never done that? or ?We?ve always done it that way,? are the usual answers. As the make up of the Board has changed in the last few years, we finally convinced them, as well as the CCCA Museum Trustees, (they are separate entities) that it was worth trying. Judging by the turn out, I?d say it was worthwhile. Most people had a great time. It was fun. It was also a lot of work. Anyone who has hosted any kind of car meet will testify that it is not easy. This was two meets in a row. For the most part, the labor force was your current National Board of Directors. No, we didn?t get the ?sit down? jobs like registration. We schlepped equipment, ran judging meetings, worked tabulation committees, drove stakes in the ground, moved tables, parked cars, played announcer, jumped dead batteries, unpacked and presented trophies, found fire extinguishers for those who forgot to bring one, and generally worked a couple of 18 hour days back to back. We then all drove to Chicago for two very long days of Board Meetings.<P>Our current Board is not perfect, but it is pretty darned good. We are all just a bunch of old car guys (and gals) who enjoy the hobby and want to put a little back into something that has given us so much enjoyment and pleasure. We care very much about the well being of this club and try very hard to make it the best it can be. Every now and then, we have to stand back and remember that this is a hobby. It?s supposed to be fun.

[Guest]

TO UNDER 40: I really don't think you are going to like what I have to say. I t sounds like you must have a couple of classics. Ask yourself this (HOW MUCH HAVE I SPENT ON AQUIRING OR RESTORING MY CLASSIC OR CLASSICS). Then you turn around and complain about the cost of membership to the CCCA. Please cut me a break. It's the same as people who get into this hobby and complain about prices. When you go to a show you either pay the price of admision or stay away. As far as being a family affair the following applies half of the people who bring children let them run wild and have no control over then. Alot of children taken to car show get bored after about two hours. Every club makes mistakes now and then. Some of you peole are opposed to any cars made after 48 getting into the club. Some day it's going to happen like it or not. I might add that I hope this doesn't happen

[Ed Miller]

Gee, I never complained about the cost of Grand Classics and am getting tired of reading postings about what is good or bad about CCCA. Therefore, be it resolved, this weekend I'm going to drive 500 miles to look at a Boattail Packard roadster. I suspect it's a cobbled up one but I'll take a look. Maybe it's a Series 734 or a LeBaron or maybe its Macauley Jr's own private boattail. I'll let you know when I return on Monday.

[Guest Chuck Conrad]

Good for you Eddie33. Let us know what you discover.<P>The chase is a big part of the FUN!

[Guest]

All right, maybe I was a little harsh, but there are a couple other points I'd like to make. The ACD club and the AACA both have a junior membership program. This is geared to kids under 16. They get their own little news letter, membership card, ect, and when they go to a National Meet, there is a get together for them. The annual Kalamazoo meet would be ideal for this. I think one of the reasons the CCCA doesn't have a junior membership program is because 75% of the members are not of parenting age, but instead are grandparents, and don't think of this. <BR>There are exceptions of course. Recently, a local guy bought a mid 30's average priced Classic sedan, and brought it to a meet with his wife and 3 sons, all under the age of 12. (Not the wife of course!) He proceeeded to tell me he has two other pre war Classics, unrestored, and plans to give 1 car to each of his 3 sons when they are older. The CCCA needs more people like this! It amazes me how many members have cars & their sons have no interest in them. In my local CCCA region, which is fairly large, I would say perhaps 20% of the members have a son that is interested in old cars. I don't know what the solution is. Obviously one can't MAKE a kid be interested in old cars, but I cant help but think that if they were moderatly exsposed to them, especially going for a ride in one, this would open the door for future interest.<BR>That article Dick Gold wrote many years ago about your Classic's value & it paying dividends fits right in here.<BR>This is where young kids & taking them to a meet comes in. Of course we can't have unsupervised kids running around jumping on running boards & the like (I have seen that too) but there should be a happy median. Sometimes adults need supervision too. I was at the 1999 Packard Centenial at Warren, OH, and I saw some yahoo open the rear door of The Car of the Dome 1934 Packard to look inside. I saw the guy watching the car for it's owner sprint across the show field to make sure everything was OK & the educate the man that you look but do not touch.<BR>Personally, I have been going to CCCA & other old car events since I was about 5 years old. My father told me from a young age about not touching any of the cars, and I never had a problem. In my opinion, the best stories are the ones where a car has been in the family for 40 - 50 years and the current owner is there with his kid or grandkid and tells me that someday the car will be passed on to them. <P>Hey Chuck, I wasn't trying to rip on you about the last Grand Experience. I think you guys got it 98% right, and I do appreciate all of the hard work and time that goes into coordinating 3 different clubs into a meet like that. I hope in the future when I have more time I can be more active in helping with these things. Since it was a success, I think this opens the door for future (closely controlled) joint meets. I personally didn't register a car, but I did talk to several members who had problems with the registration & thats where I got my info from. I will reiterate that if a guy registers incorrectly by accident, I think the car should still be allowed on the field, just perhaps not judged, or perhaps parked slightly off to the side. Please don't tell the guy he can't show the car at all though. I'll tell you this, that meet had the largest gathering of Stutzes EVER since the company shut its doors. The prior largest gathering was about 18 Stutz cars at the factory in Indy about 5 years ago. The CCCA is to be commended for helping this historic gathering happen. The only thing that would have made it better would have been more pre classic Stutz, Franklin & Marmoms there. As a Stutz & Franklin Club member, I know both clubs did heavily advertise this meet in their own publications, and they did point out that the cars did not have to be CCCA classics to attend. Perhaps they should have made this a stonger point. That's their fault though, not CCCA's. <P>To reply to the "cost of meets" topic, I agree in general Grand Classics are reasonably priced. Registration is usually no more that $25 or $35, but I will say that I believe that is per person. So a family of 4 is $100. I know other clubs, such as the ACD Club, (of which I am also a member) have a "family resistration fee." Perhaps a $40 or $50 family registration fee would be more appropriate. I just received my ACD Auburn Meet registration form a few days ago and am looking at it right now. The registration fee for the whole family is $10. The Labor Day Weekend ACD Meet is definatly comparable in size & status to a Grand Classic or Hickory Corners Meet. I'm not trying to sound like a cheapskate, I'm just making a comparison. The point the gentleman made about the cost of a meet in comparison to the cost of the car & restoration is valid. I think when I wrote that I was thinking of that guy from Arizona who wrote that annonymous letter in the bulletin a few years ago, complaining about the cost of his local CARavan. Dave Mitchell told me the National Board of Directors had a long and heated discussion about that letter. I wish I were a fly on the wall for that one! I will say that I think CCCA has gotten the message because I think there has been a CARavan or two where people had a choise of hotels. (moderate & 1st class) With the price of chrome plating these days, who has the money for a 1st class Hotel?!?!?! I close on that note.<P>PS, I hope your Packard speedster find is the real thing, but I would find it hard to believe a car of that status & value still in hiding. I'm hoping someday I find the lost one-off 1932 Stutz DV-32 Waterhouse coupe!

[Guest Chuck Conrad]

“Under 40,” you bring up some really good points. I am a second-generation old car guy. My earliest recollections revolve around riding in my father’s 1918 Cadillac. When I was six, he and I went to unearth a 1912 Buick from the inside of a collapsed chicken coup. The car had been stored there since 1921. I still have the it. That Buick is probably why I am so involved in this hobby. Stamp collecting would have been much more sensible. For me, getting kids involved in the hobby is a sure fire way to insure that there will be future generations of old car enthusiasts.<P>Several clubs have some sort of Junior Membership program. Doug Drake, Past President of AACA, runs one of he most inventive I’ve seen. At their National Meets, he organizes a group of kids together and engages them in an inspection tour of some of the cars. Of course, he gets the car owner’s permission before attacking the car with a gaggle of children, but the kids respond very well to learning about the history and features of old cars. They always seem eager to learn and are quite polite and well behaved. I've never heard of a problem. Doug usually arranges for them to ride in a car, which is always a highlight. <P>Doug’s approach works well on a couple of levels. The kids have a good time, and their parents get a little time off from their offspring. Everyone is happy. I'll bet we will see some of those kids involved in this hobby in their future.<P>There has been some talk about establishing a Junior Membership in CCCA. I think there are some reservations about enough interest to make it worthwhile. My guess is that participation might be pretty slim, but we’ll never find that out if we don’t try it. I’m for trying it. The worst that could happen is nobody participates, and we end the program.<P>I think the main hang up at the moment is finding someone who wants to take the project and run with it. If someone came through with a good plan and presented it to the Board, I believe they would get the support they need. I doubt it would be necessary that the person running the project be an elected Board Member.<P>You also mention that we ought to be able to accommodate people who have made a mistake in their registration. I agree, but there are several perils that are not immediately obvious, which I will discuss in a minute.<P>At Hickory Corners, there were two applications for the event. One was for the Experience, and one was for the Grand Classic. Several people thought if they filled out one, there was no reason to fill out the other. The problem was they were two separate events, sponsored by different entities. Of course, since the organizations in question had a lot of the same people working both events, we should have noticed there was a problem. Unfortunately, the thought just really never occurred to anyone. The fact that people would register for one event and not the other didn’t seem very unusual, since some of the cars in question did not qualify for both meets. To further compound the problem, the people who could have made a difference did not find out about it until much later in the day. That was just bad communications on our part, probably in caused in part because many of us were spread a little thin. <P>At our last Board meeting, we discussed ways to empower an “Exception Committee” to attempt to fix these problems as they occur. Each GC will have its own committee, comprised of local and national officials. We hope it works.<P>Now to the previously mentioned perils: When somebody doesn’t pre-register and just shows up, the standard practice at a Grand Classic is to allow them to put their car on the field as an “Exhibition” vehicle. It is difficult to judge them on short notice for a variety of reasons. Usually, we have a finite number of trophies ordered for the event, based on pre registration figures. It’s not a big deal to mail one to a late registrant after the event, so we could easily overcome that problem. Judging might be a different story. We are usually short of qualified judges. The Area Head Judge usually makes his judging team assignments well in advance. This is a job that looks easy, but it is not. Insuring that nobody judges his own car and organizing well-balanced teams takes more time than you’d think. When extra cars show up at the last minute (usually well after the Judges Breakfast & Meeting) it really throws a monkey wrench in the works. Even so, that relatively speaking, is a minor annoyance. The number one reason the Club doesn’t like to accept last minute arrivals is much more sinister. It seems there are people who try to pass off a “cobbled up” car as a Full Classic. I’m talking about cars that did not originally exist. If history is a teacher, the standard way to do this is to register the car as late as possible for a meet. This way the Club does not have any time to do some research to see if that boat-tail speedster Packard started out life as a hearse. I used to be naïve enough to think that nobody would pull that kind of thing. We are supposed to be a club of ladies and gentlemen. Unfortunately, I’ve witnessed this happen several times now. As a result, my viewpoint is shifting a bit. We’re all pretty sure that CCCA Senior Badges really do mean something. I like to think it means it’s a great car. Unfortunately, as my friend Peter points out, it seems even more significant when the car is being sold. <P>The “good guy” in me wants to accommodate any and all, especially if a simple and honest mistake has happened. The National Awards Chairman in me has more problems with last minute walk up registrations. Currently, there is a little time for us to screen late registrations. Bogus cars still get through. If we accepted any and all latecomers at the gate, I’m afraid we would open our judging system to all kinds of abuse. I’d like to be proven wrong on that count. I always expect the best out of people. Unfortunately, I am sometimes disappointed.<P>Perhaps a reasonable compromise would be to accept late arrivals from cars that have already received a Senior. Unfortunately, in the case of a recent possible example, that wouldn’t have worked. The car had been judged (and won) before. Sometimes they slip under the radar screen.<P>Well, if you made it this far through my rather long post, it should certainly give you something to talk about.<BR> <p>[ 07-19-2002: Message edited by: Chuck Conrad ]

[Guest]

I think that paying attention to the younger members (like Under 40) we have and attracting more of them is necessary to keep the club as young as it feels. And face it, it is usually younger members who have the energy and enthusiasm to volunteer their time and skills to put on events, bring their cars out, and so on.<P>It is not an easy process, many of the next generation have already developed other interests. Maybe the grandchildren are the ones we should concentrate on.<P>I don't think there are too many gimmicks that will solve this problem. What's needed is a little recognition that it is a problem and many small changes that may slowly change the perception that the CCCA has become an older men's club, sort of in the British tradition.<P><BR>Bill <BR>Albuqerque

[Guest Chuck Conrad]

There are no "Silver Bullets" to solve the problems. Just a slow and reasonable approach. The Club will be fine.

[Guest]

Went to a local AACA show today. This show honors the best Lycoming powered auto with an award. They had a nice Auburn supercharged convertible sedan there. Shawn the Auburns are nice cars, but I think even the low buck Packards look more impressive to me. There was a 1936 Duesy there a Phaeton model body by Derham of Rosemont, Pa. What an outstanding car this was a piece of rolling art. Shawn one question to ask you. The body of the Auburn was produced by I believe the Central Body Company. Could you give me some history on ths body building company. This is what interest me most about the Classics are the independent body building companies. Thank You.

[Guest Chuck Conrad]

Shawn can probably give you more information on the Auburn bodies, since he lives not that far from where this all happened. A lot of Auburns were really just upper mid class cars. The 6 cylinder versions are not accepted by CCCA.<P>E. L. Cord owned Central Body. They made the bodies for the Cord 810 & 812 in Connersville IN. Union City Body Company made the Auburn Speedster bodies in Union City IN. Union City was also was owned by E. L. Cord. Since there were owned by the same guy, they probably both made bodies for Auburns. I'm sure the ACD historians will chime in and set the record straight.<P>I don?t know if it is 100% true, but I have heard that Central survived, and eventually became Avco, the people who made motor homes. Avco was eventually merged or purchased by some other motor home builder, but the grandsons of yesterday's coachbuilders make motor homes and travel trailers these days. Indiana is a real hub of that activity. The ?Custom Coaches? of today are just a bit bigger and now have all the comforts of home.<P>A few years ago, Matt Sonfield compiled a list of International Coachbuilders of the Classic Era. By his research, there were 107 in the USA, 34 in Australia, 5 in Austria, 28 in Belgium, 11 in Canada, 10 in Czechoslovakia, 3 in Denmark, 277 in France (Wow!), 48 in Germany, a whopping 364 in Great Britain, 13 in Holland, 5 in Hungary, 1 in India, 1 in Ireland, 43 in Italy, 7 in Japan, 3 in Poland, 19 in Spain, 5 in Sweden and 50 in Switzerland. That's a total of 916!<P>So the next time somebody tells you that his car has a "Huber & Bruhwiler" body, he may not be pulling your leg.

[Ed Miller]

I returned from my quest for the Holy Packard Grail about one hour ago. The car was located about 150 miles from my home in Naples, Florida. In my opinion it's a 1936 Packard Twelve. The engine was removed and is sitting next to the car. In its stead is a Chevrolet engine. The body is similiar to Macauley Jr's "Brown Bomber" in its 1935 make over and also similiar to the 1934 LeBaron. But it neither of the above. It appears to be a '50s customization (or bastardization)of a 1936 Packard and nothing more. The night before I had a beautiful dream of finding a barn fresh LeBaron Boattailed Speedster. Oh well, maybe next time.

[Ed Miller]

As to young fresh blood in the Club: Being a carnut is not in the jenes. Therefore, it's not inherited. Only a small percentage of the population is interested and financially willing to imbibe in Classics. Consider the if we had 10,000 members that would be less than 1 in every 25,000 Americans!

[Shawn Miller]

wow! lots has happened here over the weekend, which I spent driving my 41 caddy with my family on an Indiana region tour along the Ohio River. Since I have only had it a month, this 600 mile drive was the first time the whole family spent any quality time with it. the car performed flawlessly even in the 95 degree heat. gee, i really like this car!<P>we had a wonderful time and the event wasn't too pricey to bring a family of 5 on since we here in Indiana are trying to open things up a bit, and didnt charge for kids. but alas i was the only one who took advantage of this. <P>OK I cant remember who said what here but here are my thoughts on these variuos subjects.<P>yes packards are more elegant than auburns generally speaking (duh). probably of a more stout build level too. I still prefer auburns and ACD cars generally. I am from Indiana, (speed matters more in indy than elegance)what do you expect! HA! One thing i will say about Auburns is that they must have been a hell of a deal in their day. What EL Cord delivered for the price was way beyond what the price reflected. This probably because they were more "assembled" than "hand built". this seems to be the biggest rub on Auburns is that they only cost 1200 bucks or so when new. <P>Chucks history of the Central Body works is pretty accurate. Parts of the building still stand. Connersville is very proud of <BR>the fact that Cords and Auburns were built there. Some Auburn bodies were also built at the Limosine Body Company in Kalamazoo, which i think was also under the umbrella of the Cord empire.<P>These were effectively factory bodied cars, although I guess one offs were made in some cases since they would make whatever you wanted if you were a willing buyer in those dark economic days of the early 30's.<P><BR>shawn

[Guest]

My home town is Williamsport Pa. which was home to Lycoming Motors. Lycoming Motors became part of the Cord Empire as we all know. Lycoming Motors after the Cord days became known as Avco producing airplane engines. Which I might add went into alot of Piper Airplanes with the piper Plant being within 15 miles of my home. The Avco plant was bouhgt in Williamsprt and is now know as Textron. Cord also owned another factory in Williamsport that was called Spencer Heater. I can't remeber thename of the business that is in the building now. The thing that frustrating is that there is so little history out there about Lycoming Motors.

[Ed Miller]

Shawn, I envy you. I have yet to participate in a Caravan. I hope to do so next summer. At this time last year I was looking for my second Classic and came within a hair's breadth of purchasing a 1937 Cord Supercharged Phaeton. Unfortunately, it turned out to be a 1936 Cord Phaeton with a Supercharger added. Not quite authentic enough for my taste. Another automobile I considered was a 1935 and 1936 Auburn Supercharged Boattailed Speedster and the Phaeton. I couldn't find one that was acceptable. I finally wound up acquiring a 1932 Cadillac V8 All Weather Phaeton. I'm very satified with her. Maybe my next Classic will be an ACD vehicle.

[Guest]

All this talk about Auburns wants me to add this observation. I think the Auburn 12 was one of the biggest bargins of the Classic era. It was priced 1/3 to 1/4 of what a Packard 12, Lincoln K, or V-16 Caddy cost.<BR>The styling was flambouyant, mechanically they were relativly low maintenance, and they had advanced engineering features, such as hydraulic brakes and a 2 speed rear end. I've never driven one, but I bet they have a lot of guts because they are "light weight" compared to the other multicylinder Classics.

[Guest]

For UNREGIST...about the Auburn 12<P>Yes...I tend to agree...I have never had a chance to really "wring out" an Aburn 12 with a 2 speed ( Columbia ) rear end..but at least on paper, they should really be one hell of a fast car.<P>Perhaps someone who knows these cars could tell us more about them.<P>Pete Hartmann

[Shawn Miller]

eddie,<P>Unsure if it is full or not but there is another CARavan yet this year sponsored by the Michigan Region through Ontario in September.<P>Since the kids will be in school, the only way I will be going is if I can coerce a friend to go and the wife to not kill me for doing so. The kids would really like it though and I know I would feel bad for not having them with me so i will probably just wait until next summer as well. <P>I wouldnt worry about having a Cord that wasnt originally supercharged that had been converted. I think the factory even did this for customers during 1937. the numbers matching thing doesn't matter much on ACD cars since they didnt match when they left the factory! HA! Cords are really great cars. i sold mine, but will definately get another one sooner rather than later. there is just nothing else like driving an 810-812 cord. i miss it terribly.<P>The Auburn 12 is one of my top ten "gotta get one" cars. The motor is superior I think to most other engines of the era. It really is well designed. Lycoming produced some pretty good motors. I beleive the lycoming v12 was produced well into the 50's for use in marine and fire engine applications.<P>shawn

[Guest]

Shawn - regarding fire service of the Lycoming<P>Yes - you are correct. As the Depression worsened, the major fire engine manufacturers had to come up with cheaper fire engines. Seagrave bought the manufacturing equipment for the Pierce Arrow V-12, and used it for a "cheaper" line of fire engines (while continuing production of their "in house" V-12...which was a much larger "industrial" style engine.<P>Same happened over at American La France. My own V-12 is their "in house" one of 800 cu. in, which is an over-head cam "hot rod" motor far more sophisticated than the Seagrave (and MUCH faster...!). American La France bought the Lycoming production equipment for the Auburbn V-12, )around 410 cu in. in the fire service version) and, with few modifications ( "insert" type rod bearings, dual ignition, better cooling, etc) used that engine clear into the early 1960's.<P>I am NOT aware of the Aburn V-12 winding up in marine service.<P>Pete Hartmann

[Guest Chuck Conrad]

I have a V-12 Auburn that needs a total restoration, but it does run. The engine is indeed very powerful. Driving the car is a little reminiscent of driving a 57 Thunderbird with no power accessories. It goes straight ahead very rapidly. It doesn't corner or stop very well, but it certainly does go forward in a hurry.<P>As for a Cord, the superchargers just come and go on these cars. They seem to migrate from one car to another. One day it has one, the next day it's ben transplanted to a different car. I have read that Cord and its successor did this modification all the time. As Shawn said, I wouldn't worry too much about whether it came with one or not. You?ll also find lots of them that have the side pipes but no supercharger. It seems that is OK too. In fact, I think somewhere in the CCCA Judges Handbook, there is a mention that there would be no penalty one way or the other on 810's and 812's regarding originality of the supercharger or sidepipes. I could be imagining that, but I think you will find it doesn't seem to make much difference to the ACD guys.<P>It?s very difficult to figure out how some of these cars originally came equipped. It seems the ACD factory kept pretty bad records, and a lot of what they had was destroyed. A few people like Randy Ema and Glen Pray have a lot of this information, but even they discover something new every now and then. <P>For the most part the people in the ACD Club just enjoy the cars for what they are and don't seem to make a really big deal out of it.

[Ed Miller]

The problem with the '36 Cord was: 1. No '36 Cord was Supercharged and 2. The none Supercharged engine (FB)looked like the Supercharged engine (FC) but internally was differant enough that the FB doesn't run correctly when a supercharged is attached to it. There will be a CCCA Caravan through the Finger Lakes area of upstate New York next summer. I'm toying with the idea of putting my '32 Cadillac on the Amtrak auto train (if its still in business), getting off in Virginia, driving up to Schenectedy. There my wife and I will pick up my kid sister and her husband and go Caravaning.

[Guest Chuck Conrad]

It pays to do your homework. It's not too hard to find a decent Cord.

[Shawn Miller]

Your right Eddie, often when a supercharger has been fitted to a nonsupercharged car the whole engine has been replaced. If not there may be some problems down the road.<P>Of course you could always remove that blower and sell it to someone else! HA! the going rate is about 10 grand I beleive!<P>Personally I like the cars without the outside pipes better, from an esthetic point of view I guess.<P>Shawn

[Ed Miller]

It will be a few years before I start looking for a third Classic. I'm still running in the 1932 Cadillac. When I do start looking the Cord will be on my list...and so will an Auburn and a Packard.