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DRIVE THEM!


J446
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I recently bought a Duesenberg that was originally owned by Queen Marie. Before I bought it it won many awards. It was "Totally restored" I don't think it had been driven more than 5 miles in 5 years. I took it apart, cleaned, lubed, regasketed it,<BR>replaced the bulbs, pumped the water out of the spare tire,(I think it had been washed too much), replaced the brake springs which had lost their spring,etc. etc. etc.<BR>Today I took it for my first drive. My several hour drive uncovered a few other problems BUT five hours later I can still feel it. Driving them is what it is all about! The look on the faces of the kids stuffed into the SUV's said it all. Most of them have probably never seen a real car before.<BR>What ever you own, If you Love it, Drive It.<BR>Best<BR>Jim

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Jim, I could not have said it better, If you got them, drive them. I have a 1936 Packard 1404 Club Sedan, we drive it all the time. It's not what I would call a "show car" but it does well at the local car shows and always draw a crowd whenever we take her out. The most fun the wife & I have is when we take our Packard to yard sales. When people tell me, I can't believe you're driving her around town, I tell them "Packard never built trailers" grin.gif" border="0

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J446<P>Double ditto on that one. <P>Just got back from a 3000 mile trek through the dessert with our relatively new almost 50 year old Austin Healey 100. We had a problem or two, but the car came home running much better than when we left. And a few problems the car has had for years were resolved!<P>I am now preparing my '27 Buick for a VMCCA tour at the end of the month. This will probably add about a thousand miles on that one, quite an effort for a car that old. But what a delight, just getting anywhere with that Buick is a thrill.<P>I think there is a place for concours type automobiles, but not in my garage. If they aren't driven, how can they be experienced? These are cars, not paintings...<P>Bill.

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My 1932 Cadillac was restored in 1979 and driven 157 miles until I acquired her in October, 2001. I've only had her on the road for about four months but the odometer now has 1,700 miles. I enjoy driving my Full Classics but I don't hold those who don't in contempt. It's their auto. They paid for it. It's up to the individual to drive or not to drive.

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As someone who went to Woodstock,(The festival not the movie) I certinally can relate to "Do your own thing" I also admire anyone who enjoys their car however they want to but I still believe that only by driving can one keep a car functioning properly and I feel fully operational is a worthy, if sometimes frustrating goal. I also feel that one should never restore out an important part of a cars history. In 1967 Mark Donohue and Bruce McLaren drove my Ford MK-IV to fourth overall at LeMans. (There's a link to a photo of this car on page 2 of the thread "Question") While McLaren was driving at over 200MPH the tail section blew off. McLaren stopped, threw down his helmut, retrived the tail, and continued racing. The dent his helmut put in the top of the tub is still there 35 years later. I personally feel that this dent should never be taken out.

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J446:<P>What a great story about that Mk IV. While those great drivers Donohue and McLaren are sadly gone, at least that little tidbit remains. I sure wouldn't take the dent out.<P>It reminds me a little bit of the Mk II Ford driven to victory by Gurney/Foyt the year before. Seems to me that car had a bulge on the driver's side for the 6ft plus Gurney's head. Well, I could be remembering a lot of this wrong it has been quite a few years.<P>Wasn't the Mk IV known also as the "J" car? You must have one of the few Mk IV's left, seems like not many were built.<P>Bill.

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You guys are quite right about this, although I love seeing well-restored cars at Grand Classics and other events. I'm glad people are motivated to do that level of restoration, but speaking personally, I'd rather drive my cars around.<P>Not that long ago, I bought a Rolls-Royce Wraith that had 256 miles showing on the odometer. The gentleman I purchased it from had restored the car ten years earlier and rolled the speedometer back to zero when he did it. He did a nice job on the restoration, but he missed the best part, driving it. <P>The car now shows about 5600 miles. After changing all the serviceable rubber parts and fixing all the little things that looked fine but didn?t work the way they should, it became a very decent tour car. I have to admit that now, it doesn't look quit as nice as it once did, but it is still very presentable. It sure is a lot more fun though.

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Buicksplus<BR>The MK-IV evolved from the J Car which was built under the apendix J rules of the LeMans regulators. The narrower windshield allowed the MK-IV to reach 223MPH. The Ford MK-IV is the only car made in America to have won the 24 Hours of LeMans. The race that Duesenberg won at LeMans was a Grand Prix. Of the 4 LeMans MK-IV's that were built, mine is the only one that finished the race that is still running.<BR>Best

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Why not "drive em"...?<P>My comment about a friend's saying "it would cost me $50,000. to take my hundred pointer out on the road and beat it the way you do yours"...should be taken in context - the fact is ... most people who go to the trouble and expense of doing historically accurate restorations, are not just interested in CCCA judging. They also want to "compete" in the public car shows, where "nit picking" has been refined to an art form ! They correctly assume that they are "in competition" with other cars at public car shows, and they correctly assume the wildest and fanciest, is going to get the top score, and please the crowd the most.<P>Classic Car Club Of America judging differs significantly in its objectives, from the typical public car show. We are interested in the historical accuracy of the restoration. We have no mechanism (with one recent and, in my view, ill-advised exception) for registering public approval of how "cute" a car looks, at CCCA judging events).<P>But we DO have a mechanism for recognizing that a classic, when delivered to its new owner, HAD BEEN DRIVEN. It had been GREASED, and even after one or two "start ups" the porclein manifolds may have started to show cracks. There might even be a trace of road dust on the chassis. Our JUDGING RULES specifically provide that this kind of use should NOT result in point deduction from our coveted "100 point score".<P>Again, traditional CCCA judging concepts were designed to encourage HISTORICAL ACCURACY. We can and DO take off for "over restoration" that is not historically accurate. That kind of thing is for the "crowd pleasers" type show.<P>So...a LESS THAN PERFECT classic that was driven to a CCCA judging event...if it is historically accurate..will receive 100 points, and that is why ALL classics in a given class at a WELL RUN CCCA judging event, could have 100 point scores, even tho some might be considerably more shiny and "perfect" than the others.<P>Pete Hartmann

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With the wrenches I bought from Brain Joseph, who has an add on your website,and has been very helpfull, I have been able to remove and work on the wheel bearings and brakes on my Duesenberg. Over washing the car and under driving left them out of adjustment,rusty, and in need of new return springs. This was covered in a recent article in Sports Car Market Letter which described a Packard that had "unrestored" it self by not being used causing the rear brakes to become seized. Everything else seems fine and I'm looking forward to using it regularly and taking it to the AACA show on August 17 at Purchase,New York.<BR>Best<BR>Jim

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Dear J-446<BR>I really commend you on your efforts. I wish you the best for years of driving.<P>P.S. On the high point early classics it is easier to take the wheels off to clean them (excepting sidemounts in covers). The next classic will have blackwall tires and wire wheels painted the color of rust. As much as I love them, no more of this double white wall stuff and chrome wire wheels.

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My car has wire wheels with sidemount covers and black wall tires. The sidemount covers were a big pain to take on and off so I sold them to someone who did not mind dealing with them. Then I switched to white wall tires, now I think when I wear this set of tires out I will switch back to black wall tires. I guess I have to learn things the hard way.

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Our classic cars were made to be driven when they were new and still should be driven. It is in the best interest of our club and our hobby to drive them. Nobody says "wow" when an enclosed truck or trailer is rolling down the highway. Everybody looks when a classic is DRIVEN down the highway.

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Dear John<BR>Thanks! J446 is a work of (now) rolling art.<BR>The wrench I got from Brian that removes the wire wheels is a work of art also. As you know Duesenberg's I sure you've seen one but it was the first time I've seen one. It's two part operation is amazing.<BR>Buickman 32 you are so right. Early one Sunday morning I was driving my Ford Mk-IV ( there's a link to a photo of it on Page 2 of the "Question" thread) and I stopped for a cup of coffee. When I got back to the parking lot there was a 911 Porsche parked next to me. A guy,who was wearing a Porsche jacket, and his girlfriend were standing looking at my car. The guy said: "That's one of those kit cars with a VW engine right?<BR>"Not exactly"I answered. I got in and started it up. His girlfried said:"It doesn't sound like a VW." "Smart Girl" I said.<BR>Best<BR>Jim<p>[ 07-21-2002: Message edited by: J446 ]

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The first time I took off a buffalo wire wheel I was really enthralled. For any of you that ever have the opportunity to watch (or try it), it is some very interesting engineering. Also, as a helpful hint, I used friction tape around the wrench to keep the scratches to a minimum.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Peter<BR>The other day I could have used one of your desert water bottles. The temp gauge on J446 headed north, I pulled over on the NYS thruway and it boiled over. I let it cool down drove off the thruway (The towing co I use isn't allowed on the thruway) It was nice to find out that they had a flatbed big enough to tow it. It turns out the last restorer had so overchromed the bolt in the fan that tensions the fan belt that it wouldn't stay tight. Fixed that and it's now in my garage. Distance driven so far about equal to distance towed but I aim to change that real soon.<BR>Best<BR>Jim

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J446~<BR>I'm a long-time fan/admirer of Mark Donahue. Saw him at the Watkins Glen Formula 1 race shortly before he died. That was when you'd walk through the center of the Kendall garage and stand and watch the cars being prepped. <BR>Is your Lola the Daytona winner? What happened to it after they stole Penske's truck?

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Hi...J446 and the rest of you guys...<P>Just out of idle curiosity...does anyone know when the industry changed over from the "honeycomb" type radiators, to the "modern" tube type...My recollection is this was around 1928...anyone know for sure.<P>As J446 I am sure knows, ONE of the many differences that separate the big, powerful luxury cars we now call "classics", from the ordinary car of the classic era (roughly 1925-1942) was ability to handle extreme temp. open road driving.<P>The buyer of an ordinary car of that era did not want to pay for, and thus was given, the capability to handle extremes. He was entitled to, and did get...a "good buy for the money" which was a low powered barely adequatley "cooled" "city" driver. <P>Today, it is hard to imagine, because, as I noted elsewhere, modern technology has given us even cheapo cars that drive pretty much as well as big expensive luxury cars - heck, even my Toyota RAV 4 will do very nicely at a steady 85 mph in the hottest desert up-grades, with the air conditioning on....!<P>But that was a whole different culture. I remember during World War Two, when we came across the country in our Packard "120" (a middle class car Packard made, in order to survive when the luxury car market fell apart during the Depression)... It was a GREAT car for the money...which was about one fourth what a Packard Twelve cost. By comparing the size of the radiator in a "120"...with the size of one in a Packard Twelve, you can see why one goes a HELL of a lot faster without over-heating.<P>Thus, as J446 notes, while poor / ignorant "restoration" can ruin the performance of even the mighty Dusenberg, it, like any other expensive, powerful luxury car of that era, was and remains a joy to drive under the worst conditions imaginable...again...assuming it is PROPERLY MAINTAINED. <P>Water bags were sold in Ford and Chevrolet dealerships. I do not recall ever seeing one sold in a luxury car dealership.....!<P>Pete Hartmann<BR>Big Springs, AZ

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So what's a Lagonda, must be Pete's lawn tractor. <P>BTW, my memory of the desert water bag is that it was for passengers, not the car. You hung in out to keep it cool, from the evaporation through the bag. Of course, passengers in classics wouldn't need them, they knew better than to travel on hot days.<P>I have a '28 and '27 Buick, both have honeycomb radiators, seems to me my friend's '31 had a fin and tube. My radiator man says it he isn't sure the fin and tube type works better than honeycomb, though it is definitely cheaper to manufacture. And the fin and tube can be rodded, while the honeycomb cannot.<P>Bill

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Hi Chuck !<P>No...no...I really don't know anything about the European cars...certainly not Lagondas...not sure I have ever actually even SEEN one !<P>I got into a snit with Peter Gariepy over what he correctly felt was my being too snide with some guy ( he had a 60 Buick..with automatic transmission problems, and while my advise to him was correct - that he should go to an automatic transmission shop (where I felt was the best place for him to find "leads") I did so in a particularly snotty matter. So...he kicked me off the entire system.<P>I did manage to make peace with him, and also over-ride his "block" of my real name and AOL address. Unfortunately, I am not all that bright with computers, so that although he has now authorized me to "come back" under my real name, I can't figure out how to get back into the system properly.<P>To repeat my suggestion to the chatters - permit me to repeat my suggestion that we all sign our real names to our "posts" ; hopefully, this will reduce the temptation to focus on "personality" issues, and concentrate our attention on why we are here...to talk and learn about auto technology, and in this particular "site"...about CLASSIC cars...!<P>Pete Hartmann<BR>Big Springs, AZ

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Hi Buick Plus.<P>I agree with your post - never understood how the honey-comb type radiator came to be, when the "tube" type is so much more efficient (and, as you note, repairable..!)<P>Pete Hartmann<BR>Big Springs, AZ

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J446:<P>Congrats on your adventures with J446. What you are doing not only gives the public an on road view of this masterpiece, it will ultimately improve the car.<P>We just returned from driving over 300 miles on a VMCCA tour with our freshly restored 27 Buick Master. This car was restored to a fairly high though not perfect level (probably over 90 points). It looks great and appeared to run fairly well. But it works even better now, having had the benefit of these touring miles in our New Mexico mountains.<P>For example, we learned from this tour that the car was full of exhaust manifold leaks that totally distorted the sound of the engine under load -- thanks to listening to another 6 cyl buick also on tour. This was easily repairable. One of the wood wheels got rather slack after the 300 miles of driving, we will now re spoke or shim it. The cooling system that seemed marginal actually performed rather well, keeping the car operational, albiet hot, on a very long tour in 100 degree weather. The fan has too much clearance from the radiator, we are going to fix that to improve hot weather performance. The riveted rear axle housing leaks like a seive when the car is driven hard. Not too difficult a fix, but we never noticed the problem before. One door hinge tightened up so much that by the end of the tour, the door was almost jammed. The hinge is now soaking in penetrating oil.<P>Finally, we and others on tour were able to enjoy and appreciate the experience of touring and trying to get some where with a 1927 automobile. There are not many folks left who can remember or understand this, we are delighted to have the chance.<P>I suppose if my Buick were a million dollar car, driving it may well have reduced its value by thousands. But not for me. I would always prefer to buy a car with some real road experience on it. These cars are not just sights, but also sounds, feelings, leaks and clunks. They cannot be properly restored without some road time on them. <P>See you on the road, J446, I am sure I can't keep up, but I would love to see and hear that Deusey pass me by.<P>Bill.

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I don't know if they had honeycomb or tube & fin type radiators, but my Dad tells of flogging the bejesus out of his Model A's and V8 Fords during the thirties. He always makes the point that they never, ever overheated, even in the dead heat of summer. Those cars fell firmly into the <BR>common transportation category. I've heard this from many people about those cars. <P>But then again, much of what is stated as fact around here ("ONE of the many differences that separate the big, powerful luxury cars we now call "classics", from the ordinary (...etc.) was the ability to handle extreme temp. open road driving.") isn't.

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Unregis - about "driving in the old days"<P>With all due respects to your father, I say again...they DID sell "Desert Water Bags" at low priced car dealers. I do not ever recall seeing one at a Packard agency....!<P>They did NOT sell those "Desert Water Bags" just to question the enthusiasm of your dad for his Ford products....!<P>My first recollections of the "joys" of long distance high speed desert driving, were in the late 1940's. My dad was a sort of "good samaritan". He always had several "Desert Waterbags" draped from the front of our Packard "120". Not for us...at the speeds he drove on the open road - typical of cross country driving after the war-time 35 mph limit was raised - was around 45 mph, and at those speeds, the small Packards served quite well. I have very clear memories of him stopping repeatedly to help people with the economy cars. I also have very clear memories of his envy and fury when some big high powered luxury car would blast by at maybe twice the speed we were going.<P>As the old "dutchman" used to say..."YOU EZ TELLING ME...CHARLIE...I VAS DER....".<P>Incidentally, if you are interested in such things, check out the "engine displacement -vs- cooling system capacity ratio" of the economy car of that era, compared to the big cars...see what that tells you...!<P>Pete Hartmann<BR>Big Springs, AZ

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Bill P<BR>My Lola is the second Lola described in the "UNFAIR ADVANTAGE" It won the Kent CanAm<BR>and was modified by Jim Hall. After Donohue crashed it at Riverside John Meyers bought,rebuilt it and raced it in the SCCA where it was A sports champ for 4 years. It is also the MT. Equinox all time record holder set by Meyers as well. I'll have it at Lime Rock on 9/1. My Ford MK-IV is the car that Donohue and McLaren drove to fourth overall at LeMans in 1967.<BR>Peter<BR>During WWII my father was in the 10th MT training at Leadville,Co. The only gear he could make it up Loveland pass in his 35 Chevy was reverse!<BR>The next thing I have to figure out is the ceramic coating on the Duesenberg's exhaust <BR>manifold. Driving it seems to have cracked it pretty quickly. Is this the way it is or is there a coating that will hold up better?<BR>Best<BR>Jim

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Jim~<BR>It might not be ceramic but porcelain. If it looks glassy and (typically) midnight blue or black, it's likely porcelain. It does not hold up well at all under repeated heat cycles of driving due to differential expansion of the iron vs. the glass. <P>Nevertheless, you can get parts re-porcelainized; there are various shops that do this that advertize in Hemmings, et al. <P>An alternative for a driver maybe a ceramic process known under several trade names, most common of which is Jet-Hot Coating. It is available in several colors including black and a silvery chrome. I have had a steel-tube header on one of my cars for a couple years and can recommend the process to you. <BR>Bill

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Bill<BR>Mine are a cool shade of green. I've used the modern coatings on my Lola and they work very well. This summer I'm going to drive and this winter I'll sort it out. I'm taking J446 to the Purchase Show on 8/17.<BR>Best<BR>Jim

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Pete Hartmann-<BR>When you make a bald and inaccurate generalization regarding the abilities of various cars to control engine coolant temperature based solely on their classic status, expect to be gently corrected. <P>Making cute but irrelevant references to mythical Dutchmen and water bags does not hide the fact that your post was in error. <P>By the way, can you explain how the ratio of engine displacement to cooling system capacity is a valid indicator of a tendency to overheat?

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I still have a Desert Water Bag that my dad purchased from the local Western Auto store in Walpole Massachusetts about 1958. We used it on several trips from New England to Texas. Of course we were driving a ?modern? car, but we used it for drinking water. In dry climates, evaporative cooling did a pretty good job.<P>Chuck

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Peter:<P>I have toured thousands of miles with classics and non-classics. I sure know that in our local club, three well-maintained classics (a 37 Packard 12, a 33 Pierce 12, and a 37 Cord) often entertained us with their steam production while touring through our high altitude mountains and rather hot plains.<P>The Model A's I have toured with seem to do very well in hot weather. These cars always amaze me with their versatility and durability. The coolest running car I have is a 40 Chevrolet, I can't seem to make it overheat, the temp rarely climbs above 170 F, this car can survive a summer parade with no problem.<P>Sorry, I don't accept the idea that "real classics" don't overheat. Any old car can have cooling problems, there are subtle and difficult to correct problems with cooling systems that can limit cooling capability and cause problems on hot days.

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Chuck: If I remember you own a Bentley correct. I am looking for the horepower rating on the Lagonda V12 from 1938 and 1939. From what information I have the engine was 273 cid rated at 180 horsepower. In another chatroom I have been called GULLIBLE for believing these figures. Could you or someone else please confirm those figures. Am I GULLIBLE for believing those figures.

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Buick Plus...yes...you are correct...I have also seen a number of fine cars reduced to over-heating pains-in-the-neck...thru various combinations of poor maintainence and inadequate restoration.<P>Unregis Bill<BR>Good point...all one has to do..is look at how much less water and cooling capacity it takes to keep a modern engine cool, than it does to take a similar displacement engine from early times cool...tells us how much modern technology has changed the game.<P>Fact is, the higher the compression ratio, the less energy is wasted as heat, and the more energy is used for power. With our big diesel engines (typically running compression ratios of 18-to-1 or higher, they have trouble reaching operating temp. unless you really put a "load" on them.<P>I would also agree with you guys as to the later cars, such as the example of the '40 Chevrolet, had vastly superior cooling than a few years before. My recollection is that by the late 1930's, even the cheap cars had pressurized cooling systems. Also, by then, there was pretty standardized SAE / ASTM engineering data on what size radiator should be applied for what size application. <P>Pete Hartmann

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Hey..GULLIBLE...c'mon...man..stop beating that dead horse...I dont care WHAT Lagonda CLAIMED for its dinky little motor...you can't seriously believe those european horses could pull like an AMERICAN horse...do you..?<P>Pete Hartmann<BR>Big Springs, AZ

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Dear J446<P>The green on the manifold is correct in color (and very impressive). Be careful if you decide to redo it, the manifold is a chunk of change and I suggest once again working through Randy Ema or Brian Joseph (at least to find a trustworthy person). Also, I believe it would be well worth a few minutes to see if the Jet Hot people have a finish that would be a suitable match. While it sounds like you found the problem of your overheating, I had a very interesting overheating problem after the engine was rebuilt in my 1941 Cadillac. I watched the work done (for the most part) and could not imagine where the problem was. I finally decided to put the car on a dyno and give it a good look while running. It turns out there were no wires in the radiator hoses and the suction side (bottom) was collapsing under load. A friend just recently went through the same thing with a Facel Vega.<BR>Keep up the driving.<P>As to Pete's prior discussion about the separation of classic cars by drivability. To a degree that may be true, though those Victorians had a thing for speed and some really interesting engineering. Also, for those who are interested, my recollection is that the Lagonda car takes its name from the American Indians and their use of such in naming one of the rivers that run through Springfield, Ohio. They are great cars.<p>[ 08-08-2002: Message edited by: JOHN MERENESS ]

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For JOHN MERENESS<P>Hi, John - let me again emphasize...I am clue-less about European classics. John Shinerman is very impassioned about this - I certainly salute him for his interest, and his greater knowledge in this area than mine, at least as to some technical / advertising data he may have read in a book.<P>I suspect the Lagonda is more of a sports car than a luxury cruiser. Traditionally, Europeans, epecially the rich ones, have gone in more for "fussy" cars, many, as Shinerman points out, with more technical sophistication than our American industrial engineers thought necessary at the time.<P>Of course there were some BIG...and I mean BIIIG engined European classics, one or two of which would blow my Packard Twelve's doors off...for example - the famous Hisso J-12 - a 500+ cu. in monster with a high enough final drive ratio to really GO...straight out of the box. Jack Nethercutt has one in his collection..if you are ever in So. Calif...go over there...and get down on your hands and knees and BEG Byron Matson to let you have a look under the hood of that beast....!<P>But as to the Lagonda - it MAY - have been designed to meet a market that for all practical purposes did not exist in the United States. The smaller distances and narrower streets, more winding mountain roads, dictated an entirely different design reigim. <P>All that being said, the laws of phyiscs and thermo-dynamics, wont change just because somone resents those "larger than life" over-powered luxury monsters we now call "classics". All other things being relatively equal, compression ratio and displacement dictate power. When John Shinerman shows up at my ranch in a Lagonda, we can do some drag racing, some "hare and hounds" and we will see just exactly what he is talking about. Until then, we will have to make our assumptions based on projections from the real world of physics.<P>Pete Hartmann

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Packard53,<P>I really don?t know much about Lagondas, but I?d love to learn more. They appear to be great cars and I?d love to have one. (I know I?ll get flamed for this). They were keen competitors with Bentley, so I would guess with a V-12 they would have considerably better performance than my 4-¼ liter Bentley which is only a 6 cylinder car. If the book ?Bentley, the Silent Sports Car,? can be believed, it shows that my Bentley had a rating of 125 BHP. As you know for tax purposes, the Brits had a Taxable Horsepower? rating that was a lot lower. 29.4 in the case of my car. The people at Rolls-Royce and Bentley were always pretty tight lipped about the power of their cars, telling you that they were ?Quite Adequate.? I can assure you that my car is ?more than quite adequate,? even though it weighs a bit less than 4000 pounds. It has passed many a Packard and has no problem with highway speeds. It is quick, reasonably agile and pretty decent handling. It?s fun to drive, and that?s good enough for me.<P>Chuck<p>[ 08-08-2002: Message edited by: Chuck Conrad ]

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Further to Mr. Mereness:<P>Wilbur Gunn of Springfield, Ohio moved to England at age forty in the late 19th century. He worked for Singer Sewing Machine co. there, and built his first vehicle, a motor assisted bicycle in 1898. He continued production eventually turning out a line of 4-wheeled vehicles. He named his vehicles 'Lagonda' the French explorer's corruption of the Wyandot Indian name for an area near Springfield meaning 'Buck Creek' or 'Buck's Horn', presumably due to the sinuosity of the creek in that area being similar to the antlers of a deer. <P>The business was purchased during the depression and operated under the technical direction of W.O.Bentley.<P>In 1947, the Lagonda business was again sold, this time to David Brown of Aston-Martin. In 1987, Aston-Martin/Lagonda became a subsidiary company of Ford Motor Company. <P>In blundering upon the Lagonda name for use as a nickname, one could do worse as the reputation of these automobiles is very good.

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