Brake pressure switch shortage?

[KDirk]

Well, there you go. These switches apparently are identical save for the electrical connectors. Both are 5 pin connectors, and it seems that both versions were used on GM products fitted with Teves MkII ABS systems. Not sure why two different connectors were used but I'll lay even odds that this alternate switch type would work in a Reatta if one adpated the wiring and had the pinout properly cross referenced.

In looking at the FSM for both the Reatta and Toronado (both use the same switch and connector type) the connector used in the E platform cars is apparently a GM spec Metri-Pak connector type. Not sure the origin of the other type with the 5 blade contacts in two rows, but if a mating service harness can be located (or cut from a scrap car so equipped) then I figure this switch should work as a direct replacement.

KDirk

[Machiner 55]

Kevin,

You beat me to the punch. I got busy and didn't include any description but I posted the pics anyway.

 

As you mentioned, the switches are identical in every way except for the connector. I measured all principle dimensions and all are within a grand or two. The threading is the same as well. I screwed the new switch into a pump assembly to confirm. As noted, the connectors are the major difference between the switches. I don’t know if you can tell by the photos but, besides the shape and orientation, the pins are identified differently as well. On the switch that fits our Reattas, the pins are identified as A, B, C, D, and E. On the “new” switch, the pins are identified as 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5.

I would assume that “A” corresponds with “1”, “B” corresponds with “2” etc. So, it should be a simple matter of making sure the replacement connector is wired in correctly should one decide to go this route.

I’m going to hang on to this switch instead of sending it back. I think I might need it one day.

 

John F.

[KDirk]

I woudn't make the assumption that the letters on the Reatta switch correspond directly to the letters on the alternate switch. What we need to know is at least one model of car that this alternate switch was used on with certainty. Then, we can cross check the connections for this switch versus the one used on the Reatta. Note that the pins on the Reatta swtich are arranged 2/1/2 (or in an "X" pattern) where the alternate switch is two rows arragned 3/2. I might be inclined to think the middle pin in the row of three maps to the center most pin on the Reatta switch, but  that is a dangerous assumption to make when hooking it up; could result in a dead short  12V to ground depending on how the pins are mapped.

 

Another thought is that GM generally used set wire colors for the same circuit across multiple models. Perhaps the 5 wire colors on the vehicle side harness on the Reatta would match those on a vehicle of the same year using this alternate swtich type. If so, then it is easy enough to test. If not, we will need service data/schematics for a car known to use this switch so we can be sure we have the connections correct.

 

In any case, I think this can be made to work in a pinch.

 

KDirk

[DAVES89]

Well John today is your lucky day. I went out to Gibson's to grab some parts for some other people and thought I would take a walk down "Cadillac Aisle" and it took me looking at 4 Caddy's before I spotted one that still had a Teves pump and motor in it [How did I miss that?]. At any rate I left the pump and motor behind but verified it was the harness you needed and snipped it off. Shoot me an email and we'll get this done. lemke1044@aol.com

 I believe the car was a 1990 Cadillac Sedan de Ville. But I can look the next time I go out there as I think I am interested in the pump/motor as well.

Edited August 8, 2015 by DAVES89 (see edit history)

[KDirk]

We have a winnah! Dave, if you are out at Gibson's again soon, please find and clip me a harness of the same type. I'd like it for some future experimentation. If it is from a 1990 Sedan DeVille that is even better as I have a FSM for that car already (both my mom and brother used to own one and I kept the FSM when they sold the cars) so I can verify the pinout quite easily. Or, if you can identify the wire colors to the repsective pins and post that here, I can work with that also. Would still like a harness in any case.

 

KDirk

[Machiner 55]

Kevin,

 

You are correct in that the correlation assumption could cause unforseen issues but it seemed like a good idea at the time.

Hopefully the color coding on the wiring is the same between the models and that will clear up the matter.

 

Dave,

 

Email sent.

 

John F.

[DAVES89]

Sorry guys, my power of observation wasn't engaged yesterday. I was looking at the harness today before sending it off to John and what I have is a Reatta style harness from that Cadillac. 

 I will have to look again.

 It may be a while before I get out there as I have to do certifications starting Monday [That is if I want to keep my license].

[Machiner 55]

Dave,

 

I say skip the certs. That connector is WAY more important.

Seriously though, no need to hurry.

 

John F.

[DAVES89]

Dave,

 

I say skip the certs. That connector is WAY more important.

Seriously though, no need to hurry.

 

John F.

I will skip the certs if you tell your wife you don't want to finish the bathroom...

[Guest Kingsley]

John F - what was the Lincoln series that your purchase was compatible with and were any other Ford compatibilities mentioned?

 

Kingsley

[DAVES89]

I went to the Amazon website to look up the switch. I didn't see a reference to other models so I looked under comments. It appears the switch is used on Lincoln Mark VII and Saab 900. Went over to Ebay and they list it for 1986/87 select Cadillacs, Pontiacs, Buicks, Oldsmobiles.

 I will finish my certifications today [done faster then some guy remodeling a bathroom] and have time for a walk through Gibsons tomorrow. I will take my power station and grab that pump/motor if it runs as well. 

 I now have 4 requests for harness's. I don't think there are that many out there with that setup...

[KDirk]

Daven

If you can't cover my request for a harness, at least confirm what makes and models they can be found on so I can find one elsewhere. If there is a GM model that verifiably uses this harness and switch I can probably order a new service harness of the correct type.

KDirk

[DAVES89]

Order is as follows;

 John [Machiner], kdirk, me, 63viking[jon].

[Machiner 55]

OK, I just made it out of the bathroom, I've been in there most of the last 9 hours.

My Wife is a kruel taskmaster let me tell you.

If I had to hire me to do this work, I wouldn't be able to afford me.

 

Kingsley, Kevin, Dave et.al.

I'm providing a link to the Ebay listing for the switch I purchased.

There are six pages of compatibility charts to peruse. One can print out a list and take it to a salvage yard as a guide to which cars will (should) have the connector.

(You can also use that compatibility thingy to plug your make and model of vehicle to see if the part will work for your application.)

 

John F.

Edited August 11, 2015 by Machiner 55 (see edit history)

[KDirk]

John,

Years ago I remodeled the basement bathroom at my parent's house after the toilet paper holder got ripped off the wall (was held on with molly screws in 3/8" drywall, thus ruining the drywall and wallpaper). What really should have been a spot wall repair turned into a gut job: new shower stall, floor, vanity, ceiling etc. Now, when I or my brother get into a project that balloons out of control in scope and cost, we always jokingly say "and it all started with a toilet paper holder". Kind of an in joke, and I guess you had to be there. Somehow it seemed pertinent here.

KDirk

[DAVES89]

Well I once again made the trek to Gibson's and went harness hunting. I went through the Cadillacs, Pontiac's, Olsdmobile's, Buick's and Lincolns. Cars of our vintage are getting crushed and parts are getting hard to come by.

 I did not go through the foriegn cars.

 I found two leads and one is going to John [from a Cadillac] and the other is going to Kevin [from a Lincoln]. The plugs are interchangeable [from GM to Lincoln] but the "lock tabs are different. The Lincoln uses a lock tab similar to the ones used on our Reattas. The Cadillac plug uses a formed wire to lock the plug onto the switch [no tab].

 Other then what is in the foriegn cars there were no other Teves units using that set up. As Gibson's intermixes all the foriegn cars it is pretty much a night mare to find a car unless you "know" what it's identifying features are.

 BTW workong on the Teves in a Lincoln is pretty much a nightmare. The pump motor is "tucked under" the ABS/Resivoir part of the Teves init and hard to get to. We have a much better system. The Cadillac is also straight forward, just like the Reatta.

 Guys you should get your harness's this week. Kevin yours is coming with that seat bottom via Speedee and will be there tomorrow. John yours should be there on Thursday.

 Please let me know if I got the "right" harness this time. 

[KDirk]

Thanks Dave. I will go looking once I get it to see if a new repair harness can be obtained through GM SPO. Can you tell me what year/model Cadillac the one came off of? That would help but not entirely neccessary. Anyway, this may open us up a short term reprieve on keeping Teves system up and running versus gutting them for lack of parts.

KDirk

[DAVES89]

It was a 1987 Fleetwood [John's harness]. Your harness came off a Lincoln MarkVII a 1993 I believe.

[KDirk]

Ok. So looks like 87 to 88 was the cutover for GM models from one connector type to the other. That gives me someplace to start.

KDirk

[Machiner 55]

Dave,

 

Thank you for your time and effort.

It was a really nice day here in the "Vale of Paradise". Hope your weather there was just as nice during your hunt.

 

John F.

[DAVES89]

It was a great couple of hours at Gibson's. The only downer was laying accross the Lincoln's engine trying to get the harness off with only a couple of tools. I didn't take much along in the way of tools as how hard can it be to pull a harness? I did have a bit of luck though. I was walking along "Ford row" looking under the hoods for a Teves unit when I spotted a brand new straight blade Craftsman screwdriver. So that was the bonus. Tools found of note was a Swivel head 3/8" extension handle ratchet, slip pliers, screwdrivers, regular pliers and now this screwdriver. I have lost tools as well but believe I am ahead.

[KDirk]

John, when you get your harness can you post pictures of it as well as the wire color code to pin refernce? Since the one I'm getting is off a Lincoln, the color code is bound to be completely different. I want to see if the 87 Cadillac color code crosses for this harness directly to that in the 88/89 Reatta. If it does things will be easier. If not, then I'll need to find a cheap copy of an 87 Deville/Fleetwood FSM to double check the pinout. Once we know the correct way to wire this switch it can be tested in-car to be certain it works as expected.

KDirk

[Machiner 55]

Kevin,

Yes, I can/will do that.

It'll probably be a couple of days after receiving the connector before I get around to it but I'll get it done.

John F.

[Machiner 55]

Kevin,

 

Apologies for taking so long to get back to this but It appears that at this stage of my life that's just how things are going to be, going forward.

There's an ebb and flow to my energy/interest levels and the demands of my Kat are stripping away valuable time. (there is some truth to some parts of what was said. Just not sure which parts) Anyway...

 

Here are some photos. I hope they are something you can use. If not let me know.

 

John F.

Edited September 26, 2015 by Machiner 55 (see edit history)

[KDirk]

Thanks for posting those. As it happens, Dave sent me a switch and harness from a Lincoln that used the same Tebes ABS setup. So, I have a starting point from which to work. I checked to see if the harness was available as a service part through my preferred supplier but so far no luck. Will check with a GM dealer and if I strike out there I will check with a Ford/Lincoln deler.

It seems apparent that this connector type was spec'd by ATE as both GM and FoMoCo vehicles had it and clearly they wouldn't have shared a common part unless it was dictated by a third party (in this case ATE Continental). Anyway it seems all but certain this switch will work in tbe Reatta with proper modification of the harness.

KDirk

[Guest Flacko9091]

I purposely stock piled a couple of complete Teves units starting back a few years ago when I owned a 1989 Eldo with the same Teves unit. I also have another pump, so in total I have two complete units and another pump. I'm going to be selling my '90 Reatta vert and keeping my 91 Reatta vert that thankfully has no Teves unit.

My earlier experience with cars of this vintage was with Cadillac Allantes. I owned a total of 13, three were parts cars. The Bosch pump powered antilock systems in those are even more of a nightmare than the Teves units. I sold used Bosch units not including the pump for $6-$800 a couple of times. Used pumps would bring $250-$400.

Transmissions in those cars 87-92 were unique to the Allante and several of the parts needed for a rebuild are not available. Early 93 Allantes have trannies unique only to early 93 Allantes, so steer very clear of first 1/2 of the year 93's.

Well enough about Allantes....I owned those for 10 years and know those inside and out.

I have been enjoying my 90 Reatta vert, but now that I have the 91, the 90 will be going up for sale. PM me if you're interested.

Edited September 4, 2015 by Flacko9091 (see edit history)

[Ronnie]

Is the end result of the search for a different harness going to be an adapter to make the new switch plug&play or are you just looking for a harness that will be easy to splice into the existing harness?

[Machiner 55]

Ron,

 

Personally, I just want to be able to splice in the connector sent to me by Dave so that I can use the Brake Pressure Switch I bought from Ebay. It appears that the switch itself is the same as what is in our Reattas but the connector body and pin outs are different as are the color codes on the wires comming out of the connector when compared to the wires on our harnesses.

 

I'd probably splice it in in such a way that the original connector would remain so that I'd be able to use what ever switch is available at the time.

 

John F.

Edited September 26, 2015 by Machiner 55 (see edit history)

[KDirk]

Ronnie,

 

Ideally it would be possible to get a mating harness of the oppostie gender for the Reatta connector, and a service harness to plug into the alternate type pressure switch. I am not expecting to find the former, and the latter is eluding me thus far. I expect that if I find the harness end that fits this other switch, the best that can be done is to cut off the Reatta harness (leaving several inches if possible) and putting on a service eather pack connecter. Then get the mating weather pack connector and install it on the bare end of the new harness section and connect those together and finally plug the other end into the switch. This approach would facilitate using either connector type without cuts and hard (soldered or mechanical) splices in the harness.

 

The next thing I need to figure out is the pinout and how it maps between the two different switch types. Need to find an 87 Cadillac Fleetwood FSM on the cheap to get the schematics and color code so I can cross-ref on connectors pins to the other. At least then this could be adapted using a hard splice, if nothing else.

 

KDirk

[Ronnie]

Anything new on adapting this pressure switch to make it work on the Reatta?

[KDirk]

John (Machiner55) just got FSMs for an 87 Deville/Fleetwood and I'm hoping it will provide the wiring color code we need to cross the pinouts between the two switch types. Since we are both busy, our collaboration has been delayed.

KDirk

[Ronnie]

Thanks for the update.

[Machiner 55]

The manuals have been shipped but as yet have not arrived.

 

John F.

[Machiner 55]

The following FSM's arrived in todays afternoon mail:

 

Good condition 1987 Cadillac Factory Service Manuals as follows:

1987 Cadillac DeVille/Fleetwood
1987 Cadillac Eldorado/Seville
1987 Cadillac Brougham
1987 Cadillac Cimarron

 

Within the next few days I expect to recieve the following:

 

Good condition 1990 Cadillac Factory Service Manuals as follows:

Volume 1 Allante
Volume 2 Eldorado and Seville
Volume 3 Brougham
Volume 4 DeVille and Fleetwood
Volume 5 1990 Cadillac Service Bulletins.

 

Kevin, what's the next step?

 

John F.

[KDirk]

John, the 87 manuals are the place to start. Looks like GM transisitioned to the pressure warning switch with the connector type used on tbe Reatta in 88, maybe a few models waited til 89. I have a 90 Deville/Fleetwood FSM and it shows the same switch type as the 88 Reatta. So, I speculate that 87 was the last year for this other switch type on GM vehicles. FoMoCo seems to have continued using it into the 90's on some models, but that isn't pertinent to the discussion at hand.

What you'll need to check is the wiring diagram and pinout for the brake pressure warning switch on the 87 Fleetwood/Deville. Make sure you are looking at the diagrams for ABS equipped models, as ABS was an option on the Cadillac line until 91 when it became standard equipment (at least on the Deville platform). So, the 87 book will have two sets of schematics, one for ABS and one for standard brakes.

Need the color code and circuit (CKT) number for each of the wires in the pressure switch harness and the pin assignments for the connector that mates to the switch. If you have the ability to scan or take a good picture of the pages and can post them here that would be great. With that info we should be able to cross reference the connections on two switch types so the alternate type can be wired correctly to a Reatta and used in lieu of the now unavailable one. I question how much interest or willingness there will be to do this, but it is easy enough to figure out and maybe it helps somebody out when their pressure switch dies and they can't find a correct OEM one to replace it with.

KDirk

[Machiner 55]

Kevin,

 

OK. Will do. But not tonight. Too tired now. But again, I don't know for sure when. Tomorrow's "Wife Day" Going to see "The Martian" have dinner out do some shopping etc. Saturday will be busy around here as well. Got some gutter/downspout issues that need resolved then I gotta find someplace (and somhow) to put the stuff I got from Dan up in Flint. I made a round-trip yesterday to grab some inventory before it became totally unavailable. Got some stuff I needed and some stuff I might need and have damn near no place to put it all. Then comes Sunday. Back to work four 12hour days (maybe more)

I'll work it all in somehow. Might just be easier to send the manuals down to you. Easier for me anyway.

 

John F.

[Machiner 55]

Kevin,

 

OK, I think I've found what we're looking for.

Will attempt scan & post this evening after work. (Yes, the Godless Bas**rds make us work on the Sabbath.)

Sorry about the wait. Been very busy as of late.

 

John F.

[Machiner 55]

Images from the 1987 Cadillac DeVille / Fleetwood FSM.

 

 

[KDirk]

Ok. Let me digest that stuff and will post back, very busy presently.

KDirk