Trying to identify 1920s automobile with partial emblem

[Guest joeyvaughan]

Joey,

             I love a good mystery! Good for you for locating this relic and attempting to determine it's pedigree.

Something no one has touched on yet is the fact that, if it is an early Buick there may be evidence of a serial number on the frame.

 

Buick 1923 - 1925 - Stamped on a plate attached to the chassis in back of the left front wheel.

 

Buick 1926 - 1931 - All except 1930 Marquette are located under the right front fender.  1930 Marquette is stamped on a plate attached to the frame under the left front fender.

 

Buick 1932 - 1935 - Stamped on a plate attached to the frame under the right front fender.

 

The frame looks to be rusty but a little time with some PB Blaster and a wire brush may help locate a serial number or a plate (or missing plate) in one of the places noted. It may help to confirm or eliminate the Buick claim.

 

Good Luck!

 

Greg

I could not wait and checked. I could not find any evidence of tags. The frame is really in pretty good shape. 

[MCHinson]

PB Blaster and a wire brush are your friends when checking those locations. You will be amazed how that will sometimes reveal a totally hidden frame number.

[nzcarnerd]

What does not seem to have been mentioned in all of this is that Buicks of the 1920s were quite distinctive in having cantilever rear springs.  The picture in post #71 shows this quite clearly.  This means that unlike most cars of the time the Buick has no hangers for the rear ends of the rear springs.  I don't know of any other common cars of the era that also used this type of springing.

[Carsnz123]

According to classic car database, if it is Buick, the serial number will be on the either at the right front of the chassis or the left rear depending on whether it is a Master or Standard series.

 

 http://www.classiccardatabase.com/specs.php?series=1240&year=1926&model=2299

http://www.classiccardatabase.com/specs.php?series=1239&year=1926&model=2286

[Guest]

Yes Joey, chassis and frame are the same thing. Tags may be missing but there could still be evidence of the tag. This would be in the form of, perhaps two (or maybe four) small rivet holes a few inches apart where a tag used to be. This is vintage auto archaeology so you have to reinterpret the missing sometimes. A couple small holes in one of those locations listed in my first post could be the spot of a long missing serial number tag. If you can't find anything like that, then it's time for a can or two of PB Blaster (an excellent rust penetrant) available at any parts store, and a good wire brush. Hit the areas also listed in my first post. You may not be able to reveal the entire serial number if the frame (chassis) is very rusty, but if you can locate even a couple of numbers in one of these locations, it should be enough to confirm the Buick claim.

Continued good luck!

Greg

[Guest joeyvaughan]

What does not seem to have been mentioned in all of this is that Buicks of the 1920s were quite distinctive in having cantilever rear springs.  The picture in post #71 shows this quite clearly.  This means that unlike most cars of the time the Buick has no hangers for the rear ends of the rear springs.  I don't know of any other common cars of the era that also used this type of springing.

Thanks! I am going to check on that asap! Appreciate the help!

[Guest joeyvaughan]

Yes Joey, chassis and frame are the same thing. Tags may be missing but there could still be evidence of the tag. This would be in the form of, perhaps two (or maybe four) small rivet holes a few inches apart where a tag used to be. This is vintage auto archaeology so you have to reinterpret the missing sometimes. A couple small holes in one of those locations listed in my first post could be the spot of a long missing serial number tag. If you can't find anything like that, then it's time for a can or two of PB Blaster (an excellent rust penetrant) available at any parts store, and a good wire brush. Hit the areas also listed in my first post. You may not be able to reveal the entire serial number if the frame (chassis) is very rusty, but if you can locate even a couple of numbers in one of these locations, it should be enough to confirm the Buick claim.

Continued good luck!

Greg

Yes thanks Greg! I am not done looking! The car is accessible but in kind of an award position on the side of a hill leading to a stream. In fact the majority of the parts I have found are at the stream bottom. If it is not raining today i will give it another going over. Thanks again for the info!

[Guest joeyvaughan]

Thanks! I am going to check on that asap! Appreciate the help!

 

Thanks! I am going to check on that asap! Appreciate the help!

I believe the picture you are looking at is not of my car but of an example sent to me to show me how the rear axle is positioned on a car. My car is basically a frame at this point without springs but I do have some pieces of leaf type springs that could possibly be of evidence if I knew exactly what you meant. I definitely do not have the whole spring assemblies.

[Guest joeyvaughan]

I just wanted to throw this out there to possibly give another clue to what this car might be. This NH licence plate from the year 1931 was found near the vehicle. There are no other cars junked here. My Mom who is still alive was born in 1931. She remembers playing on this car as a small child. So I believe the licence plate may be the correct one for this car. So if it were junked in 1931 and my grandfather was a very good mechanic with several automotive patents to his name I doubt very much the car was just a few years old when junked? Unless it was so damaged in a crash or he could not get parts. He definitely would have fixed a car and kept it running and not junked it after just a few years of use? This leads me to believe this car is older than the mid 1920's where most are placing it. Does anyone know how long cars were used for back then?

[Guest Rp1967]

The front fenders place it in the era just prior to 1931.

It can't be from much earlier

[Guest joeyvaughan]

The front fenders place it in the era just prior to 1931.

It can't be from much earlier

Thanks! I understand that from some other posts too. Is there any wiggle room there? Were any cars made several years prior to what you are saying that could fit the fender specs? It just does not make much sense for him to junk a car just a few years old?

[Restorer32]

Somehow I think no matter what evidence is laid before you you will continue to try to convince yourself (and us) that it's an Anderson despite the fact that you have presented not one shred of evidence to support your claim.

[JV Puleo]

Cars had a very short life expectancy, much shorter than we take for granted today. Those we still have are the exceptions, not the rule. The best gauge of this is to look at old photographs (The Old Motor website is a good place for this). You will only rarely see a car even 10 years old and older than that is extremely rare. If your mom was playing on the car as a child, around 1938-1940 she would have been 7-9 years old. The car could easily have been 10 years old and junked. There is nothing to say when it was put there, aside from a plate that may or may not have come from it and, even if it did come from it, who is to say why it was parked. This site is littered with stories about cars put aside or partly dismantled to be restored or repaired that never were put back together. It is a very common occurrence and happens almost as much with good mechanics as it does with amateurs.

[Restorer32]

Your finding a 1950's Packard grill badge says to me that at least parts of other cars were tossed in the area despite you're saying no other cars were junked there. The 1931 License plate could have come from anywhere. If it were for the car in question it would have likely still been attached to the car/

[Guest joeyvaughan]

Cars had a very short life expectancy, much shorter than we take for granted today. Those we still have are the exceptions, not the rule. The best gauge of this is to look at old photographs (The Old Motor website is a good place for this). You will only rarely see a car even 10 years old and older than that is extremely rare. If your mom was playing on the car as a child, around 1938-1940 she would have been 7-9 years old. The car could easily have been 10 years old and junked. There is nothing to say when it was put there, aside from a plate that may or may not have come from it and, even if it did come from it, who is to say why it was parked. This site is littered with stories about cars put aside or partly dismantled to be restored or repaired that never were put back together. It is a very common occurrence and happens almost as much with good mechanics as it does with amateurs.

Thank you for responding! You are exactly right on each of your points! I was just hoping to add a piece to the puzzle. It seems to be a Buick as has been suggested but I have not heard enough conclusive evidence to believe it 100% 

[Guest joeyvaughan]

Here is a side pic of the frame. There are two supports only between the front bumper and the rear. I wonder if these held up a running board which is now missing or was there just one step on each with no running board at all? 

[Restorer32]

Yes, those are the remains of runningboard brackets. Virtually all cars of the period had runningboards.

[Guest joeyvaughan]

I guess I am trying to answer my own question. I have circled in white on the far right the end of the fender. There are some big rivets I guess you would call them. I don't believe a fender would just end like that? I had suggested in the last post that there could have been two steps to get into the car instead of a running board. But would a fender just end like in the picture? I am guessing the supports were probably for a running board and not steps because of this? Is my thinking logical?

[Guest joeyvaughan]

Yes, those are the remains of runningboard brackets. Virtually all cars of the period had runningboards.

Ok! Thanks! I added the next picture before I saw your post. Very good!

[Guest joeyvaughan]

Ok! Thanks! I added the next picture before I saw your post. Very good!

Dumb question.....I have the brackets for the running boards that were attached to the vehicle obviously....Would the running boards have  been actual wooden boards that probably disintegrated? Because I would like to find some remnant of them. Do you know what I might look for and I'm sure  it will be in pieces if I do find anything. Or were the running board metal? One more question? Is the whole upper part of the car...drive train etc. gone from scavengers or from decay? I am digging in the brook and wonder what I might find?

[Restorer32]

Those are not rivets. They are bolts that held the back end of the fender to the front end of the runningboard. Again, a very common arrangement.

[Guest joeyvaughan]

Those are not rivets. They are bolts that held the back end of the fender to the front end of the runningboard. Again, a very common arrangement.

Thanks again! It makes perfect sense!

[Guest joeyvaughan]

Your finding a 1950's Packard grill badge says to me that at least parts of other cars were tossed in the area despite you're saying no other cars were junked there. The 1931 License plate could have come from anywhere. If it were for the car in question it would have likely still been attached to the car/

I think the Grill Badge if it is what I am thinking you are referring to is not a grill badge but solder on a broken fan blade? It does look somewhat like a badge? Do you still think it is one?

[Restorer32]

I'm talking about the Packard grill emblem in a previous pic. I agree the pic you are showing is likely a solder repaired fan blade.

[Restorer32]

OK, I reread your post #1. The emblem on the right is Packard but apparently you didn't find it, just showing it for comparison.

[MCHinson]

Dumb question.....I have the brackets for the running boards that were attached to the vehicle obviously....Would the running boards have  been actual wooden boards that probably disintegrated? Because I would like to find some remnant of them. Do you know what I might look for and I'm sure  it will be in pieces if I do find anything. Or were the running board metal? One more question? Is the whole upper part of the car...drive train etc. gone from scavengers or from decay? I am digging in the brook and wonder what I might find?

 

 

Look at this photo:

 

http://www.roadfacts.com/ashercars/BuickTouringCar1925.JPG

 

That is a similar car. The top is an easily destroyed fabric. If it had been left on the remains of the car, It would not have lasted that many years exposed to the elements. The running boards were not wood. They may have been removed to be used on another car or they may have rusted away over time. Parts were probably removed to be reused on other cars. The entire engine block and transmission seem to be missing. They were obviously removed because they did not just rust away to nothing. They were thicker metal than the frame that remains. You have the remains of a chassis that was left when someone removed major components, probably to keep another car running many years ago. You see what someone threw away because it was worthless. Anything you find will likewise probably still be basically worthless. It has been identified pretty closely. If you follow instructions previously listed, you may find a frame number to more confirm exactly what year Buick it was. The mystery is pretty well solved.   

[Guest Rp1967]

The "running boards" on an Anderson are not really running boards but cast aluminum steps,

There should be 2 places (assuming a 4 door) on each side of the frame drilled to mount these steps.

True running boards of this era which would be most other cars would not have these.

[CarlLaFong]

All of the Andersons, in Google images, have running boards. I think it has been, pretty much established, that the car is not an Anderson but, probably, a Buick with a smattering of Model T parts tossed in

[Guest Rp1967]

[Guest Rp1967]

By strange chance ,Tom Laferriere has a 1926 Buick chassis in buy and sell with some good pics.

The similarity is uncanny.

[MCHinson]

By strange chance ,Tom Laferriere has a 1926 Buick chassis in buy and sell with some good pics.

The similarity is uncanny.

That is an old discussion. I doubt he still has it. I posted a link to that back in post #70 of this discussion. That discussion was then brought back to the top by a new post apparently as a result of this discussion. It is rather clear that what Joey has is the remains of a 1926 or similar Buick. 

[Guest joeyvaughan]

I never said it wasn't a Buick. It sure looks like one. I am not positive though, And until I find conclusive evidence I will pursue this further. I could find no Buick stamps on any of the locations where the book says they should be. No holes, no gashes. nothing showing they might have been removed. Nothing. I myself don't know if this is common or not? Does it mean it's not a Buick? I am not sure. But I know one thing...I am fishing many small parts out of the stream next to the car and I will positively know without doubt what this car is. So be careful with your looks like guesses. You might be eating humble pie. I have many parts I have no idea what they are. I do know that you kind people know or most of you know. Here is a part I found tonight in the mud and you might say it came from another car but the car there is the only car there. There is a lot of glass and some household products from the old days. It is a spark plug A Champion J-5. Here are 2 pictures of it. I am in the process of researching it. I am hoping it gives a time frame. I have been told the fenders are 1920's but a licence tag (Not on vehicle) found near the vehicle says 1931. My Mom who was born in '31 remembers the car there as a small child. So I assume or guess the car was junked in 1931. My grandfather was an amazing mechanic with several automotive patents. He would not junk a car 6 or 7 years after it was made. The frame shows no visible damage. It was not in a wreck. Due to these factors I believe or am guessing the car is early 20's at the newest and possibly late teens. I know I'm gonna get lambasted for saying that but in my figuring it seems more logical. Can anybody come to my aide?

[CarlLaFong]

First of all, there are parts from at least two cars there. You have found a touring car. That cannot be disputed. You have also found window regulators. Touring cars do not have roll up windows. Ergo, you have found a car dump. A small one, but a car dump nonetheless. The starter was identified as a Model T part. Now you, an admitted non car guy is going to prove the experts wrong. Good luck with that. I suspect that even if it is proven to be a Buick chassis, you will still insist that it is an Anderson, even though you have not provided one scintilla of evidence to that effect.

This thread reminds me of the Pierce Arrow LSR car thread from a while back. He continued to speculate, offering absurd and anecdotal "evidence" of connections with Ab Jenkins, Preston Tucker and the PA factory, even though there was no documented proof to his claims.

BTW, a Champion J-5 fits

33-36 Chevy
34 Nash Big Six, 12-20, 35-20, 35-80, 35-10, 400, 3640
34 Nash 8-80, 9-80, 10-80, 9-60, 9-70, 12-80, 3620, 3680
31-33 Packard built after June 31
all 12 Cylinder Pierce Arrows
32 Pontiac

Now we have part for three cars since the car that you found is none of the above

Edited July 15, 2015 by CarlLaFong (see edit history)

[MCHinson]

Joey,

 

As others have stated, you have found parts from multiple cars. The frame that is the most obvious part is about 99+% certain to be a 1926 or so Buick Chassis. More information would have to be clearly observed to narrow it down to an exact year.

 

Where are you located? Perhaps we have a member close by who could stop by and help you find the car's serial number locations to help you understand what you have.  

[MCHinson]

You may want to take a look at this link. While I am sure that there are other cars that came with the same plugs, it looks like your J5 Plug would be correct for a 1938, 1939, or 1940 Buick. 

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=hCcDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA5&lpg=PA5&dq=Champion+J5+spark+plug+Buick&source=bl&ots=n7HhQ0N6ZQ&sig=TNuBm8PBFD7_2HgcIA4lX524ApU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAmoVChMIgM7BtIjcxgIVDIANCh2_BANp#v=onepage&q=Champion%20J5%20spark%20plug%20Buick&f=false

[capngrog]

With so little physical evidence available, and despite knowledgeable input, the mystery car will continue to be what the Original Poster (O.P.) wants it to be.

 

With that said, it's been an interesting mystery at that, and I thank the O.P. for starting this thread.  The extent and depth of knowledge of participants in this forum continues to amaze me (I'm not one of the knowledgeable ones).

 

I love a good mystery,

Grog

[Guest joeyvaughan]

Visually the front fenders of the mid 1920's Buick look almost identical to my heap but upon closer examination it is easy to see the Buick's inside fenders curve out more before going down. Mine go almost straight down.  I understand you don't have many good pics of my rear fenders (I will post better ones tomorrow) unless the video I posted has better ones but they are not a match in my opinion. I cannot find a Buick tag on the car. The fenders in my strictly amateur opinion look similar until you see them side by side. Then they do not. So I guess my question is what other things on this car look Buick? I really want to identify this car. If there is a smoking gun here please tell me what it is? I mean no offence to anyone here I have very little knowledge of this subject. I am not trying to be right or prove anyone wrong. I am jut trying to find out what kind of car my grandfather drove up here in the early 20's from South Carolina.

[Guest joeyvaughan]

Joey,

 

As others have stated, you have found parts from multiple cars. The frame that is the most obvious part is about 99+% certain to be a 1926 or so Buick Chassis. More information would have to be clearly observed to narrow it down to an exact year.

 

Where are you located? Perhaps we have a member close by who could stop by and help you find the car's serial number locations to help you understand what you have.  

Thank you so much for all your input! It may seem I am disagreeable but to someone new at the game like myself there are many questions! To have someone stop by and take a look would be wonderful! I am in Twin Mt.. New Hampshire which is about a 10 minute drive from the Mt. Washington Hotel. If anyone want's to send me a message and is willing to take a look that would be unreal! Thanks for offering that!

[Guest joeyvaughan]

First of all, there are parts from at least two cars there. You have found a touring car. That cannot be disputed. You have also found window regulators. Touring cars do not have roll up windows. Ergo, you have found a car dump. A small one, but a car dump nonetheless. The starter was identified as a Model T part. Now you, an admitted non car guy is going to prove the experts wrong. Good luck with that. I suspect that even if it is proven to be a Buick chassis, you will still insist that it is an Anderson, even though you have not provided one scintilla of evidence to that effect.

This thread reminds me of the Pierce Arrow LSR car thread from a while back. He continued to speculate, offering absurd and anecdotal "evidence" of connections with Ab Jenkins, Preston Tucker and the PA factory, even though there was no documented proof to his claims.

BTW, a Champion J-5 fits

33-36 Chevy

34 Nash Big Six, 12-20, 35-20, 35-80, 35-10, 400, 3640

34 Nash 8-80, 9-80, 10-80, 9-60, 9-70, 12-80, 3620, 3680

31-33 Packard built after June 31

all 12 Cylinder Pierce Arrows

32 Pontiac

Now we have part for three cars since the car that you found is none of the above

Thank you for your input! Were did you practice law??

[MCHinson]

 I am jut trying to find out what kind of car my grandfather drove up here in the early 20's from South Carolina.

 

I guess I did not understand. I thought you wanted to know what type of car frame you had found. I have no idea if the frame that you found is the one that your grandfather drove in the early 20s or not. All of the evidence seems to indicate that it is not. It sounds like you are trying to confirm your pre-determined theory rather than trying to identify what you have found.

 

If you re-read this entire thread I think you will find several different points that have been identified by multiple people as a 26 or so Buick.. such as the rear springs, the shape of the fenders, etc. I don't think we are ever going to be able to make you happy if we don't just declare the car to match the year you want it to match. I hope that someone nearby will help you identify what you have. You will never find any trace of a serial number by just looking. You are going to have to do some serious wire brush work to reveal any trace of a number or tag or holes from where a tag was mounted.