1912Minerva

Model 20 - can't get into gear

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Hi All,

 

I'm having a problem with my Model 20 in that I cannot get into gear, I just get a heap of grinding noise as soon as I try and select any gear (1, 2 or reverse).  The strange thing is that a couple of weeks ago I could select gears easily, drove it on and off a trailer etc.

 

The only thing I know I've changed is the clutch actuator shaft which I've backed out as far as possible to get the maximum amount of travel from depressing the clutch pedal.  I thought that would make the difference but it hasn't.

 

Do these gearboxes have a 'clutch brake' ?

 

Any help (as usual) much appreciated.

 

Regards,

 

Andrew.

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Andrew 

No clutch brake  You haven't adjusted the two screws on the side of  the gearbox?? As the last time mine did this  I had fiddled with them .  Try putting the clutch rod back as it was. If this doesn't work take the top of the box and have  a look what is happening inside when you move the gear lever- Karl 

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Any luck yet?unless you car is an early one there should be 3 adjusting screws on the back of the clutch hub.

Ken

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Hi Karl & Ken,

 

Thanks for your replies.  I haven't had a chance to try this yet as my wife has been in and out of hospital pretty well since the day of my last post.  Will let you know how I go when I get a chance.

 

Regards,

 

Andrew.

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Well, I had a chance to have a bit of a look this afternoon.  It seems that the clutch is not disengaging the motor from the gearbox. With a stick holding the clutch pedal down about 3/4 of its travel, and gear lever in reverse, cranking the car results in it moving backwards.  With a longer stick pushing the clutch pedal fully down, I can slowly crank the car with difficulty but it doesn't creep backwards.  However, I can't push the car as you would normally expect to with clutch pedal fully depressed.

I guess I need to pull gearbox and clutch out again....

 

Cheers,

 

Andrew.

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I'd say you have a problem with the washers in front of the clutch, either worn or missing....their function is very important to clutch disengaging properly.....

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I agree with David.if the car does have the adjusters might buy a little time before the inevitable.

The only other question would be is the oil in the gearbox too heavy?Straight 30 should be good.

Good luck,Ken

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Hi Ken and David,

 

Have just put the washers in front of the clutch so hopefully it isn't that.  What are the adjusters you mean ken - are these the adjusting bolts for the reverse idler?

 

I'm confused about the type of oil to use here.  I did have light oil in it (30 weight) but others advised to put a much heavier oil (so now 140 weight) there.  It seems there is a difference of views here.  However, my problem does seem to have started not long after putting the heavier weight oil in the gearbox.

 

Regards,

 

Andrew.

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If I remember correctly the book calls for motor oil in the gearbox.

140 might be causing a lot of drag between the plates spinng the gears,therefor you can't get it in gear.

On the other end of the spectrum of problems too slippery of an oil the clutch will slip when in gear.

I tried multi-vis and too much slip. Straight 30 works for me.

As for adjusters there are three Allen head screws in the back of the clutch hub.they will increase,or decrease pressure on the clutch spring.

Unless your car is a early one,like mine,and no adjusters .

I would change out the oil before fiddling with anything.

I find the getting into reverse first will stop the spinng inside the gearbox a bit lees painfully .

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Thanks Ken,

 

I drained the oil out of the gearbox and then found I could push (with much difficulty) the car in gear with the clutch depressed.  An improvement over not being able to push it at all and probably still has the thick oil clinging to surfaces and binding things up a bit.

 

I know the adjusters you mean and my car does have them.  When I had it apart I was pretty careful with those to get a good even pressure on the spring.  From memory we only screwed them in far enough so that the depth of each one matched the spiral of the spring with the 'shallowest' screw being about flush with the back of the clutch hub.

 

Will add some 30 weight and try that (when I get a chance in between work and all the other stuff that keeps getting in the way!).  Am hopeful that this will cure the problem.

 

Cheers,

 

Andrew.

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Andrew I have run  250 Wt in the gearbox and was still able to change  gears with no problems. Once I fixed the absence of thrust washers and some wear issues in the gearbox such heavy oil was not required to facilitate smooth changes  and  I now run multigrade 20-50 with no problems in both  box and motor .  I have also  used straight  30 wt but I found that when cold the oiler  drip factor was a bit on the low side -Karl

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Hupdoc, if it works for you using that multigrade, then I guess that's fine, but I don't like a multigrade for my Hupp, and here's why.  When you start it cold, then you're running the equivalent of 5 weight oil in your engine, which I don't think is sufficient.  Then, when engine gets to working temperature (the oil is 50W at 210 F), you're running the equivalent of 50 weight oil, which I think is too heavy. Personal opinions of course.

 

I've run a straight 30W and never had any problems.

 

Here's a question on the drip oiling.  I always thought the drip was going into a channel or dip area in the crankcase, but when I read the manual, it seems the drip is just going into the crankcase, with no specific destination intended.  The last time I had my engine apart was in the 1970's, so I just don't remember the internals.  Can someone tell us specifically where the drip oil is routed?

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That's what I thought, thanks Ken, thus the oil drip is an illusion, and any number of drops per minute is just a guess that the engine might be burning or leaking that much oil.  thanks dc

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David You may be right.  Although the drips drip into the crankcase The centre bearing housing splits the  crank case into  two  compartments. After a run  when I open the bottom petcocks I get a stream of oil  from the front  for 30 seconds or so but only for about 15 seconds from the  rear . So I assume that  the rear  uses more oil via seepage into the gearbox. The drip rate with straight 30   is about 10 dpm  when cold and 20dpm when hot . I  fiqured that  more oil was better than less,  especially when cold  and  the multigrade  seems to  supply  a better drip rate when cold . I used to use 10-30W (as I use this in the model T , Model A and V8 ) but Edgar Bowen recommends  20-50w and he has done more miles in his Hupmobile than just about any one I know. Harold Sharon also recommends  Multigrade  in his book  as well . Finally and probably the main  reason is I find it hard to get straight 30W  locally any more ! Karl 

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Hard to argue with advice from the late Harold Sharon, his book is great, anyone with a brass car (or an interest in same) should have a copy.

 

from an old post when he first advertised it, think price may still be the same.....contact first

 

Posted 15 August 2004 - 11:49 PM

My book, "Understanding Your Brass Car", at last! Five years in the making, including procrastinating. Describes how things work (or sometimes don't!). Thrity six chapters, 170 pages, 8 x 10", each dealing with a component of the car.
Self published. May be had from the author, Harold Sharon 93 Curtis Road Glastonbury, CT 06033 haroldnjo@cox.net
$24.95 + $4 Priority postage ($9 overseas).
  •  

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Well, I put 30 weight oil back in the gearbox on the weekend and then started it up.  Initially I was disappointed as there seemed to be no improvement. Then, suddenly, it slipped into gear and I found I could put into first and reverse quite easily.  I presume it took a little while to get the remnants of the heavier oil off the clutch plate faces. 

 

As always, thanks for everyone's input.

 

Regards,

 

Andrew.

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Great news!  Thanks for update.  I don't even remember right now what I'm running in the gearbox, but if any trouble will know one remedy......

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