Guest rwolf Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 The packing nut on the S/G side of the pump is leaking apparently because the threads in the pump housing are worn . The packing nut will grab but doesn't hold tight. I am considering some kind of sealant . Is this a good idea? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
37_Roadmaster_C Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 I do not know the specifics of your pump assembly but, the first thing I would try would be several layers of teflon thread sealing tape. It will do several things for you: 1 it will help seal around the threads, 2 it will help fill the gap in the worn threads, 3 it can be easily removed if it does not work, 4 it will help give the threads something to bite into so the packing not can compress the packing and expand it, this is what actually does the sealing. Remember, do NOT overtighten the packing on any pump shaft. If overtightened it will quickly wear a grove into the shaft and destroy both the shaft and packing. Others with more knowledge of this engine will chime in but, I would expect with proper tightening of the nut there would still be a VERY slow drip from the packing. If the teflon tape does not work you might try a wrap or two of aluminum foil or very thin .001-.002 brass shim stock on the threads... R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rwolf Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 Thanks for the advice. I will try it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Roth Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 A slight drip of water from the Packing Nut is a GOOD thing. Of course you do not want a running stream of coolant, but over-tightening to the point where no water leaks past the packing - is probably TOO TIGHT. A slight amount is just fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Wiegand Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 I am trying to figure out how the threads could be worn in a packing nut situation. The threads are not what keeps the liquid inside the pump housing. It is the packing material that does this. It sounds to me like what is needed here is to carefully dig out the old packing material and replace it with new. I have always used the graphite impregnated cord packing. Works perfectly. The secret is to use slightly more than what one would think should be used. I don't think I'm gonna go along with Marty's thinking that a seeping water pump is a GOOD thing. That means you are losing coolant at a very slow rate and anti-freeze is being spread around the engine compartment. No, that is definitely NOT GOOD. Sorry Marty. Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian_Heil Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 Agree that if the packing is doing its job there should be no leak at the thread.I also know that too tight and you will have too much friction and wear on the shaft. So if I get a weep ever so often at the shaft, I'm ok with that. All the rocker shaft lube leaks down the outside of the engine up until 1924 by design too. A couple of drips of coolant now and then aren't going to make any more mess than I already have.Having the correct graphite impregnated rope makes all the difference. Cut the rope ends at a 45 and have them match up. It will take several pieces cut and matched to fill the gland with these 'donuts'.I had an old leather shoe lace in one of mine when I dug it all out. Some old farmer got the Buick home or to the picnic before I was born but his boot was loose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Shaw Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 (edited) Sorry Terry, but pump packing is part of a dynamic sealing system that is designed to weep coolant. A film of coolant prevents the shaft from scoring by helping to lubricate and cool the shaft. The leak at the packing gland threads could indicate too much packing has been installed and/or it has been over-tightened enough to damage the threads. I suggest you re-pack as Brian noted and make sure the cuts on each ring are installed about 120 degrees apart. If the gland threads still leak, try some non-hardening pipe thread sealant. Edited July 17, 2015 by Mark Shaw (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Wiegand Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 Mark, listen to yourself will you!. I know that you sold all kinds of pumps for years and that this is how you come by the name Durcodude. We all know and understand this. I have some serious bucks that say you NEVER told your customers - "Oh, by the way, these pumps that you are buying from me - they leak!" Come on now, that never happened. The water pumps on my 1920 and 1922 do not drip a drop. Please read that again slower this time. THEY DO NOT DRIP A DROP! I have removed all of the old packing on both pumps and have replaced the old hard, dried up, crusty stuff with graphite impregnated cord (about 3/16 inch diameter) that winds around the shaft several times and then the nut tightens up on this and is snugged up real good. I started the engines and then tightened the nuts just a little bit more. WOW! No dripping, leaking, seeping, weeping, or whatever you want to call it. I prefer to call it bone dry. I am just not going to believe that back in the day these cars came out of the factory with leaking water pumps. If what you are saying is true then I am doing something wrong. I AIN'T GOIN' FOR THAT! NOT FOR A NEW YORK SECOND! Sorry Mark, Sorry Marty, I just ain't falling for this line of thinking here. These old engines leak and drip enough oil the way it is and I am not going to contribute more oozing and slobbering of the anti-freeze variety. Terry WiegandSomewhere Down in Doo Dah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Schramm Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 Terry, Take a few chill pills & lighten up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Wiegand Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 Larry, I'm just jabbin' him a little bit. Nothing serious intended here at all. That's what driving an OLD Buick is all about - having fun. But I am serious about a dry water pump though. Terry WiegandDoo Dah's Best Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
37_Roadmaster_C Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 Terry, I hope your pump shaft a happy but short life. Sorry, I too have worked with pumps for 30+ years. Mostly water but also other more nasty things, ammonia, oxygen, nitrogen and more fuels than I can think of. Any pump with a 'packing' is DESIGNED to weep, period. If you want a dry shaft seal get a real seal, preferably a ceramic/carbon lapped seal. Now I am fairly sure you won't believe this but ...... Robin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dibarlaw Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 Time for me to jump in the fray. As I just snugged up the packing gland nut on my 1925-25 after a 4 mile run to church on a 90 degree day. Motometer just above cool motor. It was dribbling out as I pulled into the garage. Lost about a cup of coolant. I watch and accept this as I still have not gotten around to making up a new shaft. My car's shaft is pretty scored up. I know it would seal better with a smooth polished surface. There must be some happy medium on this issue. I know thru the spring I drove the car nearly hundred miles total and there was hardly a drip and very seldom had to snug up the nut (usually the front one toward the radiator.) Now after my hot summer runs it always needs attention. I drove it last month to our car show at Mechanicsburg. 51 miles total and about 4 miles from the Freysinger dealership where the show is located the temp began to climb. While stopped at a red light I noticed this and hopped to get to the dealership not wanting to stop on the 5 lane urban roads. When I pulled into Freysinger's customers service bay where I was to store the car, the coolant was shooting out of the front packing. It took about a full turn to stop the leak. I had lost about a gallon of coolant. On my return trip home I made it a point to sop and check at abut 25 miles distance. No dripping but I did snug up the nut about 1/8 of a turn just to make sure. Just had a bit of a drip when I got her home. So it may be time to add more packing. Also if one looks closely at photos of 1920s and earlier cars on showroom floors they always seem to have a drip pan under them! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Shaw Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 (edited) Terry & all, The explanation via the link below is not mine. Industrial duty pumps often have replaceable shaft sleeves & external "clean" flush connections to minimize packing gland contamination. These are not options in the cooling systems of our old engines which are filled with particulates that accelerate wear of the pump shaft. http://www.pumpworld.com/mechanical-seal-education-tutorial-packing-glands.htm Edited July 19, 2015 by Mark Shaw (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Wiegand Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 Well, I don't know guys - I am either living a charmed life or I am the luckiest person on the planet. My water pumps are not leaking and I do not have the packing nuts torqued down beyond belief. I feel like I am doing something right. I am in the process of getting the '16 D-45 engine back together. One of the major things that I have done with this project is a new water pump shaft and/or starter/generator shaft. I used stainless as the material of choice. There are a host of stainless grades ranging from corrosion resistance to long wear characteristics. I opted to use the corrosion resistant material. Because I know that once this engine is back together I will not be putting hundreds of miles on it every day. Wearing of the shaft is the absolute least of my concerns. The shaft was machined between centers so this left the capability of putting it between centers on an OD grinder for finishing. I left .010" grind stock for finishing to size. I ended up with a surface finish somewhere aroundRMS 10. For the less informed, this is a very similar finish to something that has been plated then polished. Almost a mirror finish if you will. There will be absolutely zero wear on the shaft from the packing once everything is in place. This graphite impregnated packing that I use is wonderful stuff - it works - what more could a person ask for. I said what I did on here to try and help someone learn from my experiences. I did not intend to hurt anyone's feelings. I have known Mark Shaw for years and I just cannot pass up a chance to heckle him a little bit from time to time. He is so deserving of it! See what I mean here. In all seriousness, if you guys want your water pumps to leak, then by all means, let 'em leak. Not me. If I can do something simple like replace the packing and fix the problem, then that is what I will do and did. It's supposed to be all about having fun and learning something at the same time and I feel like I am doing that to the max. Terry WiegandNo Leakin' Pumps Down in Doo Dah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AzBob Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 Rebuilt the water pump on my 1926-26 using Bob's rebuild kit WPK-260. This included the graphite impregnated packing. Upon assembly, applied a dab of water pump grease on the shaft. Initially, only hand tightened the packing gland nut. Upon starting the engine for the first time, had a few drips. Tightened the gland nut another 1/4 turn and the leak stopped, Checked to make sure the packing was not binding the shaft. Have been driving the car since May and the packing gland is still leak free as well as not having to tighten the nut any further. As per Terry, "does not drip a drop". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Shaw Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 The simple explanation is "the more you drive your Buick, the more likely you will develop leakage". It is time with usage that develops wear. It is also time and neglect that will cause the shaft to develop pitting corrosion without the corrosion inhibitors in the coolant. A pitted shaft will quickly destroy packing when the engine is started after years of neglect. This is one of the primary reasons it is so often necessary to replace the water pump shaft on un-restored engines. Terry (Back atcha!), since yours is basically a static display car, it doesn't leak yet. But you are right-on to replace the shaft with SS material to resist pitting corrosion and provide a harder surface to resist wear. I put about a thousand miles on my 1913 Model 31 Buick on HCCA tours each year. I have already worn-out two sets of tires on that car, so the water pump weeps as expected from many years of wear. The same is true for some of my other Buicks; so I just put a pan under them when they are parked and top off the coolant as needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Schramm Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 The same is true for some of my other Buicks; so I just put a pan under them when they are parked and top off the coolant as needed. Just like shown in the dealer showrooms as shown in the pictures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian_Heil Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 Lots of cardboard under my Buick. Works great. Never paid for a used, flattened cardboard box yet. Biggest issue is keeping the 135# Great Dane 10 month old pup from dragging them out into the yard when I pull the Buick out. He loves to go for a ride with Dad. Now, on the subject of Dr. Doo Dah in Kansas having a loose nut . . . . I will have to consult my co-pilot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Wiegand Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 Brian, I told you guys that it was all about having fun. Your co-pilot and I would have a ton of fun together because he would listen to me. I can just see you two going down the road together in that '23 Buick. You need to have your bride take some photos of that for all of us. Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Wiegand Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 I think I finally got the adding of photos into a posting down with the help of Larry DiBarry. The photos are of the water pump for my '16 D-45. I wanted to show you guys what the finished shaft looks like before going into place. I am sorta pleased with the way the packing nuts turned out. The nut on the back side of the pump housing was made over several times before I could live with it. Left-hand internal threads are high on the list of difficulty I found out. But, everything came out fine in the end. I am absolutely positive that this pump will not leak either when everything is back in place on the engine. Terry WiegandSouth Hutchinson, Kansas America Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
37_Roadmaster_C Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 (edited) Terry, Did you do the machine work? It is done with exceptional skill. You should be proud of the work. GREAT JOB !!!! Robin PS: are the brass nuts new? They look great. Edited July 22, 2015 by 37_Roadmaster_C (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Wiegand Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 Robin, thank you for the compliments. Dean Tryon who puts out the 1915/1918 Buick-McLaughlin Newsletter had a friend of his cast the impellors using a very good condition original for the pattern. I had a friend with a CNC machining center make the shaft for me. He was going to do the finish grind work for me so I just had him go ahead and do the whole thing. Now, the packing nuts I did myself. When you look at the assembly and the way it ties in with the starter/generator there are two left-hand internal threaded nuts out of the three. I did the right handed nut first for the practice. I ended up making 5 of the left hand nuts before I was satisfied with them. To say that they were gotdammits would be an understatement. I had thought about polishing them out, but I think I will just leave them like they are. To me this is the fun part of seeing a project come together. Terry WiegandSouth Hutchinson, Kansas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Vaske Posted September 5, 2023 Share Posted September 5, 2023 On 7/16/2015 at 5:41 PM, Terry Wiegand said: I am trying to figure out how the threads could be worn in a packing nut situation. The threads are not what keeps the liquid inside the pump housing. It is the packing material that does this. It sounds to me like what is needed here is to carefully dig out the old packing material and replace it with new. I have always used the graphite impregnated cord packing. Works perfectly. The secret is to use slightly more than what one would think should be used. I don't think I'm gonna go along with Marty's thinking that a seeping water pump is a GOOD thing. That means you are losing coolant at a very slow rate and anti-freeze is being spread around the engine compartment. No, that is definitely NOT GOOD. Sorry Marty. Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas Terry.... This is Don Vaske with the 1915 Buick from the Red Flag Tour. I believe the NUT on the front side of the water pump is needing replaced. Where would I get a new one? THANKS MUCH!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgan Wright Posted September 5, 2023 Share Posted September 5, 2023 I'm wondering if Guest rwolf back in 2015 knew the packing nut next to the SG is righty loosy lefty tighty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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