Rick Marsh Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 Hello, I need some expert input. I bought this car in December and have been going through the usual stuff like, carb, ignition and brakes. Monday was the first long run and it "Plateaued at 40 MPH". I brought it back to my garage and started looking at the ignition again.1. The gap was OK on the points but I now observe a looseness in the shaft so, I sent the distributor to Then & Now for a rebuild. 2. While going through the basics, I wanted to verify timing and, with no marks on the crank, I started to determine top dead center. The engine cranks just fine with the starter pedal and turns the distributor rotor but, you need to make the cranking slower. I therefore turned the fan and observed that the crank pulley was turning but the rotor on the distributor was not. I checked once again and verified that the rotor button turns with the starter engaged but not when turning manually from the fan. That was when I pulled the distributor to ensure the pin in the shaft was OK and discovered the wobble in the distributor shaft (worn bushing). Now, while I'm waiting for the distributor to come back, my question is why did I observe the rotor button to turn when engaging the starter but not turn when manually turning the fan? Thanks, Rick Marsh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keiser31 Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 Did the pulley also turn when you pulled on the fan or did the fan just turn the water pump? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vermontboy Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 I generally temporarily tighten the belt as tight as it will go prior to using the fan to turn the engine - don't forget to loosen it to normal specs prior to starting the engine - only takes a minute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JACK M Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 If the crank pulley was not turning then the cam wont turn thus the distributor will not be turning.If you only got a little movement of the crank shaft you may not notice the distributor turning as the cam turns a half of the speed of the crank.It is a mechanical thing that is all hooked together. If your crank shaft is turning as you say (looking for TDC) then the distributer is indeed turning but very slowly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 If I may offer a hint about finding TDC on Chrysler built flathead engines. They have a small pipe plug in the head, above the #6 piston. By removing this plug you can put a screwdriver down the hole and feel the piston position. Turn the engine slowly by hand until it comes to TDC. Since #1 and #6 rise and fall together you automatically have #1 TDC. Do not use a plain piece of wire, or anything that can fall down the hole. I know newer engines from the forties have this feature, if yours has it you should find it easily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keiser31 Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 If I may offer a hint about finding TDC on Chrysler built flathead engines. They have a small pipe plug in the head, above the #6 piston. By removing this plug you can put a screwdriver down the hole and feel the piston position. Turn the engine slowly by hand until it comes to TDC. Since #1 and #6 rise and fall together you automatically have #1 TDC. Do not use a plain piece of wire, or anything that can fall down the hole. I know newer engines from the forties have this feature, if yours has it you should find it easily.The '31 will have the hole in the head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Marsh Posted June 30, 2015 Author Share Posted June 30, 2015 Gentlemen, Thank you for the feedback. As I remember from last week, the way I attempted to find TDC was by removing the #1 plug, inserting a wire gauge and then applied downward pressure on the fan belt as I turned the fan. I observed the hub of the crank to turn but the rotor button in the distributor did not. I hope this helps. OBTW, I'll look today for the hole at #6. Thanks, Rick Marsh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JACK M Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 How far did you have to rotate the crank shaft? If only a little you may not see the rotor move very much, only one full rotation for two full rotations of the crankshaft.As I said before, its mechanical, if the rotor turns while cranking with the starter it will turn no matter how you rotate the assembly.Be sure that you are on a compression stroke on #1.Here is what I do. take out all of the spark plugs and put your finger in the number one hole. Then bump the starter until you feel compression, Stop the bumping immediately upon noticing compression, then manually turn the fan in that same direction until you find the top via the plug above the number six cylinder. Keep in mind that number six will be at the top of an exhaust stroke at the same time that number one is at the top of a compression stroke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Marsh Posted June 30, 2015 Author Share Posted June 30, 2015 Gentlemen, I think we have beat TDC to death. I know about TDC and was in the process of trying to get to this when I observed the subject of my question. I was able to watch the rotor button turn when engaging the starter via the starter pedal (I have a long leg) I saw no movement of the rotor button when rotating the crank pulley while pulling on the fan. I pulled the distributor to see if the pin had sheared and it hadn't. I'm assuming something within the engine is not engaging and would like to have some idea of what to look for prior to dropping the pan. Since the distributor shaft engages with the oil pump, could something be amiss in that department? Thanks, Rick Marsh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ply33 Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 (edited) Does this car have a harmonic balancer (a.k.a. impulse neutralizer)? . . . The distributor is driven off the camshaft. Either directly or off the oil pump (not sure which for your car). If the distributor was turning when you cranked over them motor, then the crankshaft was turning and the gears and/or chain that drives the camshaft was turning. Everything behind the crank pulley must be okay if the distributor shaft rotates when the engine is turned over by the starter. So don't go worrying about the oil pump. If the distributor shaft does not rotate when you turn over the crank pulley on the front then the crank pulley is not properly attached to the crank or the very front of the crank is broken (seems highly unlikely). Chrysler was an early adopter of putting a impulse neutralizer on cars and the pulley part is held to the center part by rubber which can deteriorate over time. Sounds like that might have happened. You could check by using the hand crank to turn the engine over and see if the distributor turns (I'd be very surprised if it doesn't). By the way, some of the Chrysler built cars in that era have the ignition timing mark on the flywheel. You open a little cover on the front of the bell housing to see the marks. On Plymouth the first year for putting the marks on the pulley was 1934 and that was only for the PE models with automatic clutch, PF models still had the flywheel marks. I would not be surprised if your car has the marks on the flywheel. For what it is worth, on my '33 Plymouth the easiest way to get the engine on TDC is to remove the spark plugs and then use the hand crank to rotate the engine while shining a strong light at the opening in the flywheel housing to look for the marks on the flywheel. Edited June 30, 2015 by ply33 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 The distributor is geared to the camshaft. But, the distributor can be removed for service. At the base of the distributor there is a tab that must engage with the drive. If the distributor is not all the way down and the tab not engaged it is possible it is not turning. Badly worn timing chain will allow the crankshaft to turn several degrees before the distributor turns. The distributor shaft which also drives the oil pump may be broken or the gear broken but this is very unlikely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Marsh Posted July 1, 2015 Author Share Posted July 1, 2015 Gentlemen, Thanks for the feedback. I heard from Then and Now that the distributor has been rebuilt and will ship this morning. If the holiday doesn't delay the US Mail, I should have the unit back in two days. I plan and putting it in and seeing if we have an engine that will start. I'll also go looking for those timing marks on the flywheel. Normally I'm working off the guidance of a factory maintenance manual. In this case, without one, I'm on a learning curve. Thanks, Rick Marsh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JACK M Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 I doubt the pulley would be mounted to the dampened side of the harmonic balancer. Rather the solid side (inside) with the dampener on the outside.I could be wrong about that but it stands to reason that the load of the belt would be to much to be driven thru the rubber.I've been wrong before but I thought I might explain my logic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ply33 Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 . . . Normally I'm working off the guidance of a factory maintenance manual. In this case, without one, I'm on a learning curve. . .See if you can get a copy of the “Instruction Book” that came with the car and would have been in the glove box originally. For Plymouth, the first year they published a factory service manual was 1934, before that all the repair information was in the owners manual/instruction book that came with the car. I would not be surprised if that was also true for your Chrysler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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