Buick Super Riviera 1958 - P6tu

[P6tu]

Today was somewhat successful day - it was the first time I saw a B-58 turn signals. And they were mine :P. I took the whole thing apart to get to the bottom of the issue.

At first I disconnected the cables on the steering column and shorted the circuit the according to the chassis manual - nothing... (I made a mistake there, but I won't tell anyone yet :P). The cables were fine actually... So I was a bit confused and tracked with my finger around the drawings and tried to figure out, where is the issue. When I used the ohm meter, then all cables were good. It took me about 1 hour of checking the cabling and then I found out that the circuit is incomplete if the key is in "OFF" position :D. That was a true "douh" moment :P. OK, so I turned the key to "ON" position, shorted the cables and ta-daa, both of the turn signals worked. So on to the next step -  the switch itself. Screwed it off the steering column and started to play with the switch and Ohm meter... It was not working correctly. Took it apart and there was a load of some very old grease that had turned rock hard and didn't let any current through. Cleaned the switch, added appropriate grease to needed locations, connected the cables - TEST passed and the turn signals worked. Placed the switch on to the steering column, moved the signal handle - nothing happened. I played around with it and noticed that the string did not move at all under the switch so there were many issues with the turn signals. There was something wrong with the linkage where the turn signal lever was located... I started to disassemble the steering wheel. Unfortunately I have only one picture of the process:

So after I got it all taken apart, I tried to figure out, how the link should move until I realized that the small plastic linkage was damaged. The peg that should be moved by the lever, was broken off. Did a quick-fix there. I drilled a hole across the plastic thing and placed a screw there. To make the screw head more round and more slippery, then I dropped and molded some plastic around it. Came our better than original from my opinion. Then all that was left, was to assemble everything back together. I needed to do a lot of adjusting to get it work right. Overall result - perfectly working turn signals.

Now that I have that issue fixed, I came to wonder, are there hazard lights on a B-58?

 

As I had the whole steering column disassembled, I also tried to figure out, why the gear needle is in incorrect position. The needle is pushed as left as possible, but it still indicates a wrong gear. I also recolored the backplate for the gear indicator.

[Smartin]

Try shimming the upper right bolt (as you look at the trunk with it open).  Put a shim in between the hinge and the trunk lid itself.  This will allow the hinge to close deeper, pulling the corner down more.

[P6tu]

2 minutes ago, Smartin said:

Try shimming the upper right bolt (as you look at the trunk with it open).  Put a shim in between the hinge and the trunk lid itself.  This will allow the hinge to close deeper, pulling the corner down more.

I'm a bit confused... My common sense says that if I put anything under it, then it will be even higher... OK, if I put a shim between only the "top" bolt and not the "lower" one, then... OK, I might try that out. I just realized that if i have the "top" bolt shimmed, then the hinge wouldn't also open as much as it does at the moment and it should also avoid the hinge to get "locked" in the open position as it would not go "past" the locking position... Will try it.

 

[P6tu]

Regarding the gear lever position issue...

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Lever in D position:

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Lever in N position:

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Lever in P position:

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

When I had the steering column disassembled, then I studied the build of the gear lever also. At the moment I have the "reverse" light switch at the bottom of the steering column aligned as left as possible and so is the indicator needle. The gears go in perfectly. For me it seemed that the gear column inside the steering column and around the steering shaft was mis-aligned. Is it possible to adjust that? But then again, if I would adjust that, then this would only allow me to put the reverse switch in a normal position instead of having it aligned as left as possible. I'd still have problems with aligning the indicator needle, because at the moment, if I push the lever as up as possible, then the needle would be near the "P" but not behind it. The gear lever would hit the steering column edge... Difficult to explain. I wish I would be more used to taking pictures while working on the car :D.

 

Does anyone have any ideas, what to do with the needle to get it aligned correctly?

Edited June 2, 2016 by P6tu (see edit history)

[P6tu]

Just to have the information updated, then there were few other things that I've done on the car also.

I had the drivetrain checked and I had to replace only few rubber spacers... Otherwise the drivetrain was in a good condition.

I also checked the brakepads and the break system. Only minor adjustment had to be done, but overall the breaks are good. I have some mysterious air somewhere in the linings and I have to pump through the brakes.

The carburator had to be adjusted again after the last transmission rebuild... There were supposedly some seals damaged so that in turns fuel goes from the floater chambers to locations where it shouldn't and causes the engine to start stalling for a second. It is not a big deal since I'm not going to take hard turns with it and during a smooth ride it works perfectly.

[dei]

Hello.

I took some pictures of the hinges on my Special and hope they might help.

I've really put my sins out there so please don't be too harsh. Having 44 years of ownership and several hard miles in the early days, it never was a 'show car'. 

The car never was hit in the rear and the trunk lid opens and closes nicely. Notice there are no washers under the bolts at the lid.

 

This is just before the lid is actually locked down. The gaps are good and nothing binds going up or down.

 

I'm no 'body guy' but wonder from your picture, is there a difference between the models (Special vs Super) in the shape / contour of the lid? Yours seems to have a bit of a curve upwards along the edge near the window whereas mine is fairly straight. Is it possible some repair of pressure has taken place, distorting things a bit?

Also, there are multiple pins in one hinge (I count six). Do any of those seem to have play in them? Mine (although look old) do not. Possibly worn out pins keep the hood in the wrong spot when trying to shut it and binds let alone not positioning it properly when fully closed.  

 

Not sure any of this helps you but maybe there is a body guy willing to look at yours and this might give something to compare with him.

T'would be nice if you were closer.

Edited June 2, 2016 by dei
pictures (see edit history)

[P6tu]

59 minutes ago, dei said:

Hello.

I took some pictures of the hinges on my Special and hope they might help.

 

I'm no 'body guy' but wonder from your picture, is there a difference between the models (Special vs Super) in the shape / contour of the lid? Yours seems to have a bit of a curve upwards along the edge near the window whereas mine is fairly straight. Is it possible some repair of pressure has taken place, distorting things a bit?

Also, there are multiple pins in one hinge (I count six). Do any of those seem to have play in them? Mine (although look old) do not. Possibly worn out pins keep the hood in the wrong spot when trying to shut it and binds let alone not positioning it properly when fully closed.  

 

Not sure any of this helps you but maybe there is a body guy willing to look at yours and this might give something to compare with him.

T'would be nice if you were closer.

The Special has a narrower trunk lid. There are many differences between Special/Century and Super/Roadmaster. Unfortunately I can not see the pictures at the moment for some reason, but we do have one Century here in Estonia. We will arrange a meeting to compare the hinges, but first I would like to try out that shimming option. Regardin the pins - they have worn out quite much and there is a good amount of play, but still, only the right side is "out of location".

 

Is there a way to disassemble the hinges without having to weld it back together afterwards?

Edited June 2, 2016 by P6tu (see edit history)

[dei]

With editing hopefully have reset the pictures.

My Limited is now sitting with the trunk lid off and will take a good look at what it takes to get one of the hinges off and let you know. (Need a few days though)

[P6tu]

Hi Dei,

 

The hinges on your Special are absolutely different from what I have :S... I will make some pictures of the hinges that I have tomorrow. Does the limited have the same type of hinges as you Special does?

 

I did get the lid adjusted thanks to Smartin's advice:

but I still would like to get it fixed and I do not like it at all how it looks from the inside...

The lid still gets "stuck" at the fully open position and I have to use something to pry the "lock" open from inside - not good and not nice.

 

Today I was also adjusting my doors. I was not satisfied, how they closed so got my left side doors adjusted perfectly. I did have to use a special separator for the rear door to work properly:

That is a 3 millimeter think aluminium plate that I made. Otherwise the door side lock would have just hit the other end even if the door was perfectly aligned.

 

Now, something random from my car:

Those wooden things have been placed to every door. I have wondered if those are some original things or are those fully custom made? I know that the car came from USA without those wooden covers and I can only guess, that they are placed there because all the door panels are very damaged under it. The bottom side edge is like ripped off or something on all door panels - I do not know why... At first I was thinking that I will take those things away, but eventually I have used to them and I even like them =). Adds a little bit of antique feeling to the car  - an "original" wooden trim :P.

[P6tu]

So I've been fixing many minor things like trunk lighting, aligning windows, repaired one window crank (had the know broken off), dome light didn't work (the bulb socket contact springs didn't apply any pressure - replaced them with pen spring  ), adjusted the hood to close correctly and aligned it, fixed the rear lighter (the grounding cable had so much corrosion on it that had to be cleaned) and then the glove compartment light didn't work - apparently the fuse was out...

 

Meanwhile the right rear door was little bit out of place again so I disassembled it completely and now I have to work on how to get it fixed in one location. Probably will have to use some jagged edge shims or something similar to get it fixed in place correctly. Picture of the door removed:

 

I also took apart my rear light, because they were missing the top bolts from the chrome housing. I noticed, that both of the rear light housings had somehow gone wider. The inner light reflector that also should hold the chrome piece in place, was much narrower and did not go in place correctly as it should have gone. The rear light housing is this alumiinium like material and I do not want to bend it nor nothing, so tomorrow I will just make sure, that the top bolt will hold the housing as much as it could and the reflector would just sit as tight as possible but would not hold it in place as intended.

 

I also played around with the windshield wipers. I've heard many stories how they do not work and how lousy they are, but I like them. They work as the should, but with one exception - only the left wiper works. Right windshield wiper does not move at all or if it does, then only few inches at best, but then stays there. Could anyone tell, what is that about? I tought that the wipers are connected to each other mechanically, but appears that they are not. How and what makes the right wiper to work?

 

With best regards,

P6tu

 

Edited June 10, 2016 by P6tu (see edit history)

[P6tu]

Today I also had a small panic when the turn signals stopped working again. Took everything apart and apparently my molten plastic around the screw did not work as intended and was broken off. At first I tought that the whole plastic peg broke completely, but it was just my own structure that wasn't strong enaugh. Therefor I did another workaround:

I added a metal plate to the sidewalls of the  and fixed it to the lever plate. In that plate I have a screw that goes through the plastig peg (red arrow points to the end of the screw). This should work without issues now.

 

Since the car is outside at the moment and it started to rain heavily, then I began to investigate the wiper system. As I tought, the wipers should move together because they are connected to the same motor:

Now I need to get my hands on the wiper transmission idler pulleys and the transmission drive itself. I also have to verify if the cable is correctly installed or if it has come off...

[P6tu]

The culprit was wiper transmission shaft itself. The tooth have worn out and it has come loose from the main pulley in the transmission. Cleaned, oiled etc... For other, if anyone is ever going to take that transmission apart - it is a real PITA to get it back together correctly if you don't mark the cables... I'll try to make some pictures tomorrow to give you ideas how to do it... In general the assembly is quite straight forward.

[P6tu]

So the promised pictures. Since the threads did not stick the shaft to the main pulley, I did a workaround there:

I drilled a small hole right in the middle and used a pin to fix the rod with the pulley. Worked very well. I tought that the pulley might crack into pieces, but did it slowly and patiently and finally got throught it without problems.

Now, to get the cables attached correctly (if you take apart the main pulley), then I used tape to indicate the points, where the cable enters the supporting pulley:

Worked out good. Prior to that I tried many other options, but nothing worked out as well as the tape solution. I got the full tentsion out from the spring in the main pulley.

During the wiper transmission installation one accident happened too... One of the shims dropped to the vent hole. At first I was hoping that it dropped through the drain or is somwhere in the drain pipe - pushed a cord through it and nothing. OK, so then it had to be somwhere in the vent opening and took a lot of things apart from inside to get the cover off and everything else - placed my hand inside and still nothing. Then I had to do something that I did not want to in the first place - I had to take off the turbine itself with the cover. It was "glued" together by the previous owned who did the coloring of the car. I had to use a crowbar to pry it open bit by bit. The shim got stuck right between the edge of the vent opening... At least I found it :P.

 

I also worked on my right tail light housing. As the car has had an accident or something then the chrome housing did not stay in it's place and had an ugly gap between the fin moulding and the top of the rear light housing, then I "built" an extra support for the housing itself - the result was perfect and now the housing stays right where it should:

The bad and sad side about this is, that the colour of the car has changed a bit in time... I had bought some extra colour for such purposes and after colouring and adding the lacque and smoothing it out, it can still be seen that the colour on the car differs a bit...

[JohnD1956]

Nice work!  Be sure to reseal that turbine housing to the firewall.  I used rope caulk, which is a product sold in the local hardware store. It's sold there as a seal when replacing window panes in your home. But it's the same consistency of the seal I found when I had to replace my heater core in the 56, and it stays pliable under hot conditions.

[P6tu]

8 minutes ago, JohnD1956 said:

Nice work!  Be sure to reseal that turbine housing to the firewall.  I used rope caulk, which is a product sold in the local hardware store. It's sold there as a seal when replacing window panes in your home. But it's the same consistency of the seal I found when I had to replace my heater core in the 56, and it stays pliable under hot conditions.

Hi John,

 

I heated up to old black goo and it got very sticky so it did the trick. How important it is to have it 100% sealed? Thing is, that there is a quite big gap at the top - on the picture between the left top screw and middle screw. I should have some of the glass glue (black ultrasticky thing) and I may apply that, but I'm not sure of the need. The air will be sucked in from everywhere anyhow when the turbine is on...

[P6tu]

Google isn't helping me enough at the moment...And neither is any literature that I own... Do I really have to take apart the whole dashboard to remove the instrument panel?

[JohnD1956]

Keep in mind that if you ever have an exhaust leak near that location, there is a chance for Carbon Monoxide to leak into the cabin.  The fan for the heater usually is ducted to draw outside air,  not air from the engine compartment.  And while there will be a positive pressure inside that duct while the fan is blowing, there may be a suction if the fan is off and the interior window is open. 

[dei]

15 hours ago, P6tu said:

Google isn't helping me enough at the moment...And neither is any literature that I own... Do I really have to take apart the whole dashboard to remove the instrument panel?

 

If you mean the speedometer cluster, not the whole dashboard.

You will have to take off the whole top panel of the dashboard first removing all the inside trim around the windshield at the dash.

Then there are bolts in the panel attaching it to the dashboard that have to come out. Once they are out carefully lift the panel only enough to find the speaker wire, disconnect it (otherwise you will tear it off the speaker or out of the radio) and then remove the panel out of the car.

You will then be able to access the cluster but have a sore neck and back reaching between the windshield, over the steering wheel  and down inside to access the attachment bolts, wires, etc.

You will have to disconnect the oil & temperature gauges from the cluster (they screw into the back of the cluster and will be moved out of the way but be careful NOT to kink the oil line) along with the instrument lights and the attachment bolts.

Do not forget to unscrew the speed minder cable going to the rotating button at the bottom of the dash by the steering column. Should be a thin nut and might have to slip off the rubber cover (if it still has one) to slide through the hole.

 

I have had to do three cars but might have forgotten something over the years. Just take pictures or make notes as you go and reverse the order when ready to put back together. 

 

Always fun to find an extra screw or two after the job is done and don't forget to check and re-install all the dash lights! 

You only want to do this once right?

[P6tu]

35 minutes ago, dei said:

 

If you mean the speedometer cluster, not the whole dashboard.

You will have to take off the whole top panel of the dashboard first removing all the inside trim around the windshield at the dash.

Then there are bolts in the panel attaching it to the dashboard that have to come out. Once they are out carefully lift the panel only enough to find the speaker wire, disconnect it (otherwise you will tear it off the speaker or out of the radio) and then remove the panel out of the car.

You will then be able to access the cluster but have a sore neck and back reaching between the windshield, over the steering wheel  and down inside to access the attachment bolts, wires, etc.

You will have to disconnect the oil & temperature gauges from the cluster (they screw into the back of the cluster and will be moved out of the way but be careful NOT to kink the oil line) along with the instrument lights and the attachment bolts.

Do not forget to unscrew the speed minder cable going to the rotating button at the bottom of the dash by the steering column. Should be a thin nut and might have to slip off the rubber cover (if it still has one) to slide through the hole.

 

I have had to do three cars but might have forgotten something over the years. Just take pictures or make notes as you go and reverse the order when ready to put back together. 

 

Always fun to find an extra screw or two after the job is done and don't forget to check and re-install all the dash lights! 

You only want to do this once right?

Yes, I was referring to the speedometer cluster. I have there few bulbs out and then the speedometer gets stuck in certain locations and I have some doubts of the needels too so it would be good to take it out and do an overhaul on the speedometer cluster... Seems like a days task to take it apart. Should I concider to have any special tools prepared for it? I'm thinking if I'm able to get it done over the coming weekend...

[JohnD1956]

I'll defer to those with direct experience in 58's, but for 56 at least, you can disconnect the oil gauge line at the gauge.  Not the Temp gauge though.  That has to be removed from the cluster and be very careful of that line.

[Smartin]

The temp gauge will unscrew from the back of the instrument cluster allowing you to remove the cluster without pulling the entire temp gauge line out.

[P6tu]

I have not been able to start with the speedometer disassembly, but instead I've had to take care some other urgent matters.

I've had to keep my Buick outside at the moment (no room in the garage). Lately we had some rainy days and when I looked inside the car, I noticed that the rear seat was wet from the corner. Started to trace down the source and it was the rear window seal. Since it is hard to get one urgently, I just took away the moldings and added silicon to the seal. I have not been able to verify if that took care of the issue, or not, but at least I did something.

I also started to investigate the issue with the rear axle. It had been constantly slowly leaking through the breather hole on the left side of the axle:

As soon as I got the filling cap unscrewed, the oil started pouring from it. I have no explanation, how that could happen and how is it possible to have so much oil in it and it was rather liquid looking... I've understood, that it should be very viscose. It was also strangely red looking. Anyway, I pumped everything out as much as I was able to and then added proper mineral hypoid oil there (80W90).

after I had done that, one strange noise emerged. It is like a bearing is worn out or something. If I have slight torque on the rear axle and keep moving, then it is silent. If I let go of the throttle and start freewheeling, then there is an awful noise coming from the rear axle. How likely it is that the driveshaft bearing has been damaged due to wrong oil in the differential? What needs to be done to get it replaced? I'm also wondering, if it may be the U joint instead... Hard to determine, how much is normal for the U joint to play - I can do clunk noise, when I have the both wheels lifted off the ground and spin one around by hand and then suddenly stopping it.

This torque tube thing is so unfamiliar to me...

Also, could someone post a picture of the spring that should be pull back the parking brake? I have the spring missing...

[P6tu]

JohnD, Smartin, Dei - thank you for the hints about removing the speedometer. I'll try to document my way through the process. There are no picture guides in the internet about the dash removal - might be the first one to do that :P.

[P6tu]

Ah, and one more thing - I did get my trunk lid lamp working, but now I have issues keeping it lit. I've understood that it should be an old technique of having a liquid silver kind of switch somewhere that acts as a contact. If it is properly leveled, then the light turns on (the lid is in open position). Does anyone know, where it is exactly located and is there a way to adjust it? At the moment if I have the trunk opened then I have to apply a little bit of force to keep it lit...

[JohnD1956]

I believe that differential oil has been contaminated by transmission fluid. Several on this board reported that the seal in the torque tube, and the seal for the differential pinion shaft can also fail and the trans fluid will go into the rear axle.  This will most likely require removal of the entire torque tube/rear axle assembly for repairs.

I cannot comment on the noise you are hearing.  As far as I know there is a universal in the drive shaft at the point where the two pieces of the torque tube come together. But it's just a wild guess to say that's the issue.  You already know your pinion shaft seal is compromised, so the noise could be coming from there  as well as from anywhere else.  At this point it might help to discuss how to go about fixing all this.

From my perspective, I would say do not take the car apart yet.  I would keep it running and use it sparingly while researching and acquiring the various parts.  Once I had all the parts then I would have the repairs done, so that the car is not taken apart just to find out a part is difficult to acquire.  Continuing to use it will result in contamination of the new oil you put in the rear axle.  But that will have to be changed again anyway.  The biggest risk is that noise, resulting in part failure, and excessive oil in the rear axle compromising the seals at the axle shafts, with contamination of your rear brake shoes.  So if you drive it, be careful and consider it may take longer to stop.  But the risk to taking it apart has been seen countless times.  How many for sale  ad's have you seen for cars that are already disassembled? I see a lot here.  Folks have good intentions but for one reason or another, fail to reassemble the vehicle.  At least, as it is, you can move it in your yard if you have to.

Some parts I would acquire are:

The transmission torque ball seal

The front drive shaft seal

The drive shaft universal

The rear axle pinion seal

and if possible, a pinion gear and shaft, just in case your original one has been scored and cannot be repaired..

The outer rear axle seals

The brake lines on the torque tube/axle assembly.

 

I don't know what your rear axle has for other parts.  But there is most likely two bearings in the differential carrier assembly, and I'd try to replace those as well, since you will have access with everything apart.

 

 

 

[P6tu]

Hi again,

 

Winter has passed and I did some overhauling on my rear axle. First off - the noise was from a very small issue and the rear axle is in a good condition. But to make sure of that, a lot of work was done.

The oil, that I had in the rear differential was old oil from the transmission. I did not think that so much oil could get into the torque tube. When I got the transmission rebuilt, then I also changed the torque tube ball looking bearing. The old one was so bad that I had oil dripping from it. But it did not pop to my mind that the transmission fluids would make it to the rear diff through the torque tube.

Anyway, as suggested above, I got all the possible sealings, U-joints and bearings. Then got the car on stands and took the whole rear axle with the tube away from the car. When it was unbolted and I we moved it, then I immideately noticed a small movement in the torque tube itself. While it was visually looking good and all the bolts seemed to be tight - then it actually wasnt and didn't even have to disassemble the tube. The noise came exactly from that location. Again, I have no pictures, but i had three bolts just a little bit loose near the differential and it allowed the differential and tube to play a little bit. If torque was applied, then it pulled the tube and differential together and there was no noise and the mystical noise was the driveshaft rubbing against the tube wall, when the car was freewheeling. Hard to describe, but main thing is that just a little bit loose bolts on the torque tube give it enaugh movement to cause trouble, so I suggest everyone to check that out. I did have to change one bearing due to that, but it was a lucky call. If I would have kept going like that, then it would not have been so easy.

 

I also changed the bulbs and I repaired the speedomeeter in the speedometer cluster. Bulbs were an easy fix, but the speedometer... Turned out that the problem wasn't within the cluster, but the line that came from the transmission and went into the speedometer drum, that got jammed in certain locations. I removed the line fully (was a PITA due to the tight places and it had been coloured in the past, so I had to damage the colour in the engine compartment). Got the line cleaned and it started working perfectly. I also had issues with the fuel gauge, but it has nothing to do with the cluster - problem is more likely in the fueltank (level sensor working badly in the fueltank). This I need to return to, but haven't been able to do that yet.

As I had the top of the dashboard removed, I also went through everything else I had acces to there. This included the firewall cover. It has been removed sometime during the cars life by someone and it wasn't attached correctly (or not at all to be precise). All the nuts that should have held the firewall cover in place, were neatly placed in one cavity. I fished them all out and fixed the firewall sound isolation cover as it should be.

 

I "upgraded" the rear window seal as the readers might have noted sometime earlier. I had to move my car outside for a short period (we are doing a frame off restauration on one old Soviet car and we needed to have two of the same cars together to swap the body and etc.) For my suprise (a bad suprise), the rear seat was wet again from the melted snow and rain... Again, I started to search for location where the water could get in and had to start deliberatly pour water on the rear window and around the rear window to find the leaking location. The problem was with the upper side of the rear window seal AND the nuts that hold the rear window bottom trim, those nuts did not hold any water and a lot of the water that made it to the luggage compartment, got in through those holes. I made some custom rubber seals that would go on the trim clamps (on the trim side and on the nut side). After adding the seals and adding some extra window seal material to the rear window seal, the water problems have been solved (almost). I still get some water coming in from between the rear door and the frame. This is not so much, but it can still make it to the rear seat. I would appreciate it very much, if someone could send me a picture of the rear door small window upper side and from the corner where the roof meets the rear window trim near the rear door (the picture must be from a four door Roadmaster or Super).

 

To Be Continued... I still have a lot to do, but I'm very busy at work and don't have much time... =(. And also, my father is still doing that frame off restauration on his Soviet UAZ 69 and it is a bit cramped in the garage. The unusual part of it is, that my father is working on a car and not on a bike. He has always been a bike guy, but now he wanted to take on a car to restore :D. Well, I've always like cars more than bikes... I don't have anything against bikes, but it's just that they have two wheels missing ;).

[P6tu]

So I was thinkig of doing a first cruise this year and mysterious things happened.

 

First - the pulley was loose... It was loose from the crank and I don't even understand, how was that possible. Anyway, I tightened it and in the process I changed the belts just in case...

Second - the generator burnt out. I'm not sure, how it is in english, but I had the generator fully rebuilt. The bearings were changed, I got ALL the copper wires redone (on the rotor and those located on the inner wall of the generator.

Third - front right fishbone screw was absolutely loose. This had to be tightened. Also, I noticed that my upper ball joints should be replaced. I can feel a small movement in them.

 

In the process, I also replaced the oil and check the brakes. I have my doubts that the master cylinder is starting to fail. If I apply slight pressure on the brake pedal, then it goes down and does not apply any brakes (like I had bubbles in the brake fluid). There is no air in the brake lines, so it must be the master cylinder. At the moment I am not sure, what I can do with it... Maybe I'll do a rebuilt on the brake system this year. Maybe I damaged something during the rear axle assembly... I'm not sure yet, but I will get to the bottom of the issue. I also have quite good brake shoes, so the problem can not be in the wheel cylinders - at least that is what I think.

Edited April 20, 2017 by P6tu (see edit history)

[JoelsBuicks]

You are most likely correct, if a wheel cylinder was bad, you would notice a loss of fluid at the wheel.  

 

When my master cylinders have failed, the symptoms are as you have described or fluid coming out around the push rod or both.

 

One other thing, This doesn't mean that your wheel cylinders are all working correctly, it would be a good time to rework the whole system.

 

Good luck with all those "mysterious things."

 

Joel

 

 

 

[P6tu]

Hello,

 

I had a good nice long weekend and I rebuilt the breaking system. What I still with to do, is to replace the brake lining (the metal pipes where the brake fluid runs). After a thorough disassambly of the wheel cylinders and master cylinder, I must note out that it was somewhat a miracle that the system worked at all. While the wheel cylinders were in working condition (only one had a minor leak that could be noticed only due to the fact that it had accumulated a conciderable amount of dirt around the cylinder.

The master cylinder - the seals were not exactly worn out, but the whole unit was full of rust like goo. Ofcourse the seals had accumulated a fair amount of that rust on the rubber that was stuck there quite well. Luckly for me, the working area of the cylinder was in acceptable condition. Probably at some point in my cars lifetime, there has been water inside the brake system. I did some pictures just in case of the process. Also few questions arose during the rebuild process, but I still am going through the book to find the answers there first.

 

I will upload the pictures in near future.

[P6tu]

The pictures:

 

The amount of goo inside gasoline (I used gasoline to clean the majority of dirt and rust off from the details):

The dirt has settled at the bottom of the bin (insane amount and it somehow did not hinder the brakes):

 

The power thingy cleaned and ready for placement. I did not take it apart, but because I did not see any flaws in it's work and since it is only air and nothing else, then I didn't see any reason to disassamble it. Or should I have taken it apart also? PS! There was a fair amount of rust at the point where the rod meets the brake fluid. It was apparently the location where the water from some period has eaten it away... Luckily it did not affect the work of the rod at all and the seals kept the rod tight (maybe even too tight...)

 

A very important page that I used despite mapping the parts order anyway. A book is always a good thing to have by your side

 

Seals in correct order ready for placement:

 

The details assambled in correct order (and cleaned as much as possible and reasonable):

 

I did not find any description nor explanation for the purpose of the holes at the sides of the pump location. These holes are just there and don't have any reasonable purpose. Can someone tell me, why are there holes on the side of the unit? There are four holes and they are right near the seal that goes between the power unit and the vacuum chamber. The pictures are from the same angle, just one is from distance and other is with flash to get a better view of one of the holes.

 

 

One picture prior to the disassambly of the power unit:

 

This rubber boot was very damaged (picture is prior to disassambly). I did not install it afterwards, but could someone explain me, what is the exact purpose besides keeping it neat from below? The room behind the boot isn't sealed in any way and dust has free access to that compartment there...

[old-tank]

6 hours ago, P6tu said:

There was a fair amount of rust at the point where the rod meets the brake fluid. It was apparently the location where the water from some period has eaten it away... Luckily it did not affect the work of the rod at all and the seals kept the rod tight (maybe even too tight...)

You should probably get a new rod.

[Smartin]

IF the rusted spot on rod does not interfere with the seal, you do not need to replace it.  All the rod does is displace the fluid.

[old-tank]

http://www.fusickautomotiveproducts.com/prodinfo.asp?number=BBP539

while you have it apart....

[JohnD1956]

9 hours ago, P6tu said:

This rubber boot was very damaged (picture is prior to disassambly). I did not install it afterwards, but could someone explain me, what is the exact purpose besides keeping it neat from below? The room behind the boot isn't sealed in any way and dust has free access to that compartment there...

 

 

Likely this was used to seal engine heat and noise from the cabin.  It also helps to seal out Carbon Monoxide gasses if you develop an exhaust leak in the engine compartment.

[Beemon]

You would be wise to follow Willies advice! I rebuilt mine twice because I thought it was good enough and it ended up putting micro cuts in the seals. Also if those tiny holes in the front are clogged, then the system will not work properly as they are for fluid relief. 

 

Also did you replace the leather cup for the vacuum side? Using the original may create a vacuum leak. All these parts are available, don't assume they are good to go, you will be kicking yourself when you start sucking fluid into the intake or it starts dripping on the steering column at the broken seal relief port  (that's what those tiny holes you were asking about are for). I don't know where it is on a 58, but on a 56 there is a small piece of rod that hangs from the hole. 

 

With all new parts, it will be a very reliable brake system. Don't be fooled by others who believe a dual reservoir system is safer, because it's not. All the dual reservoir does is proportions the fluid pressure and nothing more. The only way to have a dual system is to have two or more master cylinders with separate reservoirs. 

[P6tu]

14 hours ago, Smartin said:

IF the rusted spot on rod does not interfere with the seal, you do not need to replace it.  All the rod does is displace the fluid.

That is what I was thinking. The rods rusty part does not get in contact with the seals. And I tought that it is only to displace the fluid so that is why I didn't see any reason to replace it - just to clean it from rust to avoid it growing on.

 

13 hours ago, old-tank said:

http://www.fusickautomotiveproducts.com/prodinfo.asp?number=BBP539

while you have it apart....

Or is there another reason why I should replace the rod, Old-Tank?

 

12 hours ago, JohnD1956 said:

 

Likely this was used to seal engine heat and noise from the cabin.  It also helps to seal out Carbon Monoxide gasses if you develop an exhaust leak in the engine compartment.

Okay. Thanks for the info. Will add this to my to-do list...

 

8 hours ago, Beemon said:

You would be wise to follow Willies advice! I rebuilt mine twice because I thought it was good enough and it ended up putting micro cuts in the seals. Also if those tiny holes in the front are clogged, then the system will not work properly as they are for fluid relief. 

 

Also did you replace the leather cup for the vacuum side? Using the original may create a vacuum leak. All these parts are available, don't assume they are good to go, you will be kicking yourself when you start sucking fluid into the intake or it starts dripping on the steering column at the broken seal relief port  (that's what those tiny holes you were asking about are for). I don't know where it is on a 58, but on a 56 there is a small piece of rod that hangs from the hole. 

 

With all new parts, it will be a very reliable brake system. Don't be fooled by others who believe a dual reservoir system is safer, because it's not. All the dual reservoir does is proportions the fluid pressure and nothing more. The only way to have a dual system is to have two or more master cylinders with separate reservoirs. 

I assume that Willy = Old-Tank? Since the rusty spot does not meet with the seals, then I should be cool, right?

 

I did not replace the leather cup for the vacuum side. I didn't get a new one in the rebuild kit. I tested the vacuum and it was tight. That is why I didn't take the vacuum side apart at all. And before full assambly I added a bit of a sealant type grease all over the leather cup too, so it should be tight as hell. When I pushed it in, placed my finger at the end of the vacuum hose outside of the vacuum chamber, then it did suck and kept the suction on so a small "Fzzz" sound could be heard after releasing the finger from the hose. Altough I did have some doubts about the hose that is located inside the vacuum chamber (the circular hose). It stood very loose and I did not dare to "glue" it together with some silicon, but should I do that? This hose was very prone cause some vacuum leaks... And I must note, that the "power" is noticably lower than prior to disassambly. I know that there is a break in time for the shoes and I'm not 100% sure about anything at the moment. And I also need to note, that the brake pedal isn't returning to the original position and I can lift it about 0,5 - 1 inch after releasing it.

 

Oh the powerbrake system is very good on the B-58. We have one Buick Special from 1958 and it does not have the power steering nor the power brakes. The difference is remarkable. Maybe not so much regarding the steering, but the power brakes should have been standard on all models. I had to apply brute force on the brake pedal for them to react while with my car at the same time I would have had the wheels skidding already (currently that does not happed due to the new shoes).

[Beemon]

There should be an adjustment at the brake pedal to align the rod with the pedal. You might have a slight bind that is keeping it from returning. If the adjustment doesn't help, then the leather cup is too dry and is not allowing it to return properly. The 56 shop manual says to lube the leather cup with ATF, not sure about 58. And by lube, I mean soak that thing really good until it's completely wicked. Likewise, just with all old rubbers, that hose in the booster should have been replaced. The old one was glued, so this one should be, too.

[P6tu]

27 minutes ago, Beemon said:

There should be an adjustment at the brake pedal to align the rod with the pedal. You might have a slight bind that is keeping it from returning. If the adjustment doesn't help, then the leather cup is too dry and is not allowing it to return properly. The 56 shop manual says to lube the leather cup with ATF, not sure about 58. And by lube, I mean soak that thing really good until it's completely wicked. Likewise, just with all old rubbers, that hose in the booster should have been replaced. The old one was glued, so this one should be, too.

OK, thanks for that info. There is nothing binding or no force hindering the movement of the pedal. If I take the pin out from the pedal adjustment thing and from the pedal linkage, then the pedal moved very well without any obstructions.

I will disassamble the thing again, because I did not soak the leather cup, but just smeared it so that may be one thing hindering the movement. Another thing is that hose. I will "glue" it back together with some special silicon like thing that I have.

[Beemon]

Before you pull it back apart, the pin at the brake pedal should be offset to allow the pedal to be moved up and down. Did you try adjusting the pedal first? You should be able to oil the booster at the vent on the side, if it has one. Just keep oiling until it's noticeably wicked through. From what you said, it moves just fine without being attached to the firewall, but when the pedal is attached is when it binds?

[P6tu]

2 minutes ago, Beemon said:

Before you pull it back apart, the pin at the brake pedal should be offset to allow the pedal to be moved up and down. Did you try adjusting the pedal first? You should be able to oil the booster at the vent on the side, if it has one. Just keep oiling until it's noticeably wicked through. From what you said, it moves just fine without being attached to the firewall, but when the pedal is attached is when it binds?

The pedal moves well. It is clearly understandable, that the rod from the booster is cause for hindering the pedal movement. I am able to wobble the pedal up to the point of the pin connecting to the rod. The pin is also free. it can be turned with fingers so there is no pressure on that too.

I would be able to add lubricant from the booster vent, but I would not be able to glue the hose in place. I had my doubts before and after reading the comments that it used to be glued together in factory settings (I didn't read about replacing / reinstalling that hose from the factory manual) so I definitely want to glue that together to prevent any vacuum leaks.

 

Come to think of it... I might look the whole vacuum system over this weekend. I have the wipers working and I shouldn't have any problems with the vacuum, but it can never be too good :D.