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Status as Antique Vehicle - Does it change with new engine?


Guest mbjg0788

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Guest mbjg0788

I am the owner of an antique vehicle.  The vehicle suffered an engine fire.  The engine was destroyed beyond repair.  It was cost prohibitive to replace the destroyed engine with another antique engine from the same type vehicle.  So, I replaced the destroyed engine with an engine from a different non-antique vehicle.  Does my antique vehicle remain an antique vehicle?

 

Thanks for your help.

 

mbjg0788

Edited by mbjg0788 (see edit history)
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Wait, while the popcorn is done popping.

According to this club/website, no, it is a hot rod now.

According to the DMV, it's anyone's guess

According to your insurance company, again, it's anyone's guess

This is like the age old question, "What is a classic car?" You will get a hundred answers, all of them both right and wrong since "antique car" is not a legally defined term

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I am the owner of an antique vehicle.  The vehicle suffered an engine fire.  The engine was destroyed beyond repair.  It was cost prohibitive to replace the destroyed engine with another antique engine from the same type vehicle.  So, I replaced the destroyed engine with an engine from a different non-antique vehicle.  Does my antique vehicle remain an antique vehicle?

 

Thanks for your help.

 

mbjg0788

Edited by helfen (see edit history)
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  mbjo788, when I moved from Alabama in 2010, anything that was over 30 years old, reguardless of anything, in the county I lived in. There were t-buckets with blowers, slammed sedans, exotics, you name it with antique tags. I had them on my Sunbeam Tiger (modified), our 63 Avanti (mag wheels), our Pantera (much bigger tires), an Austin Mini (flame paint job and mags), a GTO (stock), a fiberglass 32 Ford Highboy (w/ a 350 brand X and automatic), and a 48 Stude M series truck street rod (w/ brand X and automatic). Insurance or DMV neither cared there. It was the same a few years earlier in Tennessee too, but of course all this could have changed there, and could be WAY different in other locations.  I think Mr. OToole's suggestion has quite a bit of merit !

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Every state has it's own definition of "antique" for vehicle licensing purposes.  In some jurisdictions, the vehicle must be stock to get antique plates, in others it is just the model year that matters.  Classic car insurance companies also have their own definitions as far as qualifying for antique car insurance and these differ from one company to another.  The AACA defines the car as stock.  The small block Chevy engine swap you don't want to talk about doesn't qualify.

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Some swaps have been around a long time, eg.Ford / Merc flathead in place of a Lincoln V 12. . Most would agree such a car ; while better with the 12, is still an antique {special interest ?] as long as the car is otherwise stock. Repowers on early commercial trucks were pretty common, the truck might have lots of life left . The repower might provide better power, reduced running costs or even keep an orphan working that would otherwise be sidelined by unavailable spare parts.   I think most would agree such a truck , if it survived to the present would still be an antique.

 Repowers with a modern engine are to many hot rods. If it is a reasonably common , modest value car then what's the harm? If it is something above average then keeping it stock will generally pay off in the long run. A potential new owner will deduct the cost of putting the car right from the overall value of the car, and will usually assume the newer engine has little to no value.

Greg in Canada

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I am the owner of an antique vehicle.  The vehicle suffered an engine fire.  The engine was destroyed beyond repair.  It was cost prohibitive to replace the destroyed engine with another antique engine from the same type vehicle.  So, I replaced the destroyed engine with an engine from a different non-antique vehicle.  Does my antique vehicle remain an antique vehicle?

 

Thanks for your help.

 

mbjg0788

.

Edited by helfen (see edit history)
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Depends.  The Mystic Seaport Museum was happy to learn that about 15% of the "Charles W. Morgan", built in 1841 is original including the keel.  Portions at least 100 years old add over another 50%. I wasn't able to find the number of miles, nautical or otherwise, she sailed in over 8 decades covering 37 voyages here:  

 

http://www.mysticseaport.org/visit/explore/morgan/history/charles-w-morgan-ports-of-call-1841-1921/

 

I'll ask our Daughter, who was the Program Manager for the 38th Voyage last summer.....

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 Best answer yet!

"

"Depends.  The Mystic Seaport Museum was happy to learn that about 15% of the "Charles W. Morgan", built in 1841 is original including the keel.  Portions at least 100 years old add over another 50%. I wasn't able to find the number of miles, nautical or otherwise, she sailed in over 8 decades covering 37 voyages here:  "

 

In MA. a car 25 years old is an antique, therefore the engine is an antique.

If you put in another car that is an antique, why is it now not an antique?

 

ps, the orange engine mentioned previously  could be 60 years old.

 

OTHER DEFINITIONS;

 

The antiques road show describes a 100 year old high boy with 50 year old drawer pulls as, an genuine antique with added hardware.

 

 

Automotive restoration

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Restoration

In contrast to conservation, which is like an unaltered historic document, the "restoration of a mass-produced vehicle without any significant historical associations can be justified if it is in poor and unstable condition or if a restored condition is required for educational purposes."[3]

A vehicle restoration is the process of reconditioning it from a used condition "in an effort to return it to like-new condition ... can be refurbished using either original or reproduction parts and techniques."[4] Many antique and rare cars may not be able to have a true to original restoration done because some parts may not be available to replace or to imitate fully, yet with the proper research, they may be restored to an overall authentic condition. The objective is to preserve the historical aspects of the vehicle, its components, and assembly.[5]

Restoration is sometimes confused with the term "restomod." A restomod has portions of the car as they were when the car was first offered for sale as well as significant changes (updates). If any part of the car is updated, the car has been "restomodded," and not restored, such as "a nearly stock-appearing vehicle that has been fitted with late-model chassis, drivetrain, and conveniences."[4] An "original restoration" puts a car in the same condition as when it was first offered for sale.

 

 

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
 

Vehicle Restoration is the process of restoring a vehicle that is either partially scrapped or otherwise life expired back to its original working condition.

Automotive restoration can be applied to many different eras of automobileHeritage railways and railway museums aim to restore and operate restored trains. Bus preservation groups aim to purchase buses of various eras to restore them to their original operating condition. Trains and buses are often restored to the original authentic livery of their original owner.

 

 
Restoration process[edit]

 

Restoration of a vehicle refers to the process of restoring a vehicle to its original condition. Neither updating or modifying are considered part of the restoration process. A restored car is one that has had all of its systems and or parts restored to original condition. Selectively restoring parts or systems is referred to as refurbishing. It does not qualify as restoration. Rebuilding an engine may restore that engine, but it does not restore the car, or entitle the car to be called a restoration.

A car that has had its body work restored to as new but has undergone some modifications elsewhere is either a modified car or a resto-mod car. It is was neither completely restored not completely modified. If a car has had an engine swap for other than the original model, that car has not been restored. Although most of the parts are original, it qualifies as modified rather than restored.

There are many aspects to the process of vehicle restoration. The goal is to return the vehicle to its 'original' state.[1] To accomplish this, a vehicle must often undergo many structural and aesthetic changes.

The first project is disassembly.[1] The car is taken apart and the chassis is inspected.[1] Thechassis must be in order as it the structural foundation of the vehicle. The next task is typically are the vehicles engine and mechanisms.[1] The restorer will mechanically bring the vehicle into working order before aesthetically restoring the interior and exterior of the vehicle.[1] Once the vehicle is mechanically functional the body work is then done to the car.[1] Once the exterior restoration is completed, the last task is the interior finish.[1] The restoration of the car is complete when the interior restoration is completed.

Interior restoration[edit]

Interior restoration is the process of returning the inside of the vehicle to its original factory state.[1]Often a vehicle’s interior must be need to be completely stripped out before restoration can occur.[1]This is because deterioration over time that can leave materials like wood, cloth or leather in unusable condition.[1] Also abandoned vehicles have the potential to contain biohazardous materialwithin the cabin caused by decay and habitation by animals.[1] Often seating will be stripped to the wire framing before being stuffed and upholstered.[1] The seat is still considered to be authentic after undergoing this process.[1] Other areas of interior restoration include replaced instrument panelingcar radios, flooring and wooden paneling[1]

All mechanical and electronic equipment such as a speedometergas gaugeair bags and other equipment necessary to the safe operation of the vehicle must be inspected.[1] The vehicle interior is considered restored when it is returned the state of function and aesthetic the car was in after itsmanufacture[1]

Exterior restoration[edit]

Restoration of a vehicle’s exterior can take many forms. A vehicle that has been left or abandonedwill often accumulate rust over time.[2] Sometimes this rust deterioration can render an exterior part unusable.[2] In which case a replacement part like a fender, front grill or door mirror much be purchased outright from an external source.[2] If rust damage is minor however the part will undergo rust repair.[2] This is the process of removing rust from metal and returning structural integrity.[2]This is accomplished by removing the rust through sanding or blasting to get down to bare metal.[2]Then new sheet metal or fiberglass is applied to the affected area. Finally the piece is worked until smooth, primed and re-painted.[2]

Other materials like glass and weather stripping must be replaced as they become damaged over time.[1] Factors like weather erosion can lead to faded and broken glass as well as dried out weather stripping. Another typical area of exterior repair is dent removal.[1] This entails taking the original metal and re-working it to remove dents and other such blemishes.[1] Professionals often use hammer and dolly work to remove dents. This involves placing the dented metal piece over a curved metal dolly and using an electric or manual hammer to remove the dent and smooth the metal.[1]

Engine restoration[edit]

The internal combustion engine requires regular maintenance to ensure its continued function.[3]Engine oilpower steering and brake fluid are examples of engine maintenance that must be kept and checked at regular intervals.[3] Often wear and tear over time can leave an engine totally unusable. In which case the restorer might remove the existing engine and replace it with a similar or modern engine substitute.[3] In order to conduct an engine restoration first a technician will conduct a thorough inspection. Often pre-restored vehicle have engines that have gone without maintenance for years and therefore require engine restoration to return them to working order. The engine is removed from the car and inspected for broken and non-functional parts.[3] Typical parts that require replacing include the pistonsspark plugsfuel lines batteryfusestiming belt and various gaskets.[3] All are subject to deterioration over time. Structural components like the engine blockcam shaft and crank shaft are less likely to require repair but not uncommon.[3] Typically, after all required parts are gathered, the disassembled pieces will be cleaned, lubricated (if required), and reassembled. The engine is then replaced within the car.[3]

A mechanic will then perform a series of tests to ensure that the engine is in working, road worthy condition.[3] This is known as a pre-start engine check. First all the lines and hoses are checked for breaks and leaks. Second the radiator is topped off with water to ensure that the system is sealed off. Next the oil level is replenished. Finally the battery charge is checked and the ignition system is inspected. The engine is then ready to be started.[3]

Edited by Roger Walling (see edit history)
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Nice cut and paste

Still, there will never be a clear consensus that all will agree on. Is a car still an antique with an engine swap? Is a Model A with hydraulic brakes still an antique? Everyone has their own, personal, line drawn in the sand. Hot/rat rodders will tell you it doesn't matter what you do and hard core restoration guys will tell you it must have original air in the tires.

To me, they are all antique cars. Some are original, some are restored and some are modified. Of course, and by my own admission, I am right and wrong at the same time ;)

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When an engine fire damages the aluminum parts of a Duesenberg engine swapping in that Chevy small block could screw the value up a bit. Of course one gets a whole different perspective on "cost prohibitive" upon completion.

Bernie

Edited by 60FlatTop (see edit history)
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An engine fire normally will not destroy it beyond repair unless it had an aluminum or magnesium block.

A fire that would destroy an engine would do a number on all of the surrounding areas of the car, firewall, dash, springs,etc.

I have repaired 2 from a boat fire, the carburetors went down the intake manifolds  and the distributors dripped over the side.

So I think someone took the quick and easy way out and put a "crate engine" in.

This will effect the value of many cars in my opinion.    

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I have to disagree with the majority of posters here about the newer engine depreciation the vehicles value and changing it's classification to be considered not an antique car.

For many of us the question is answered by referring to what we think of as "antique cars", like Model A Ford, Packard, Desoto, Hudson, Studebaker, Mawell, etc.  Today anything 25 years old is eligible for AACA and most of our members never show a car, let alone do national tours our win "Senior Awards".  Most of us are car guys enjoying old cars.

For the guy asking the question, it could be a 1981 GMC Caballero that he put a 1995 Cadillac LT-1 engine in.  If that's the case and the car remains stock looking, it's still an "Äntique Car" to him and the people who are fascinated with 30 something year old vehicles. 

On the other hand, if it's 1981 GMC Caballero with the Cadillac engine AND a chopped top, a Studebaker front body clip, tubbed rear wheel wells, slicks, headers and a flamed paint job, it's not an "antique" anymore.  But that's my personal opinion.  It's a modified old car!

As far as all the comments about value being diminished, not necessarily.  If it's a "Resto-Mod" like a 1935 Buick or 1935 Cadillac and is done tastefully to the same degree as a full restoration would be done, it's probably worth a lot more than a restoration. (Probably cost more too)

A poorly done modified car is no better than a poorly done restoration.

 

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Hi From Oz,

Here in Australia we have original restored Australian built RHD Yankee antique/vintage cars for sale at say an average price of $22000 AU.

Yet some "Hotrodder:" imports a LHD Yankee Hot rod, say a Ford with a Chev engine or a Chev with a Hemi, or an old Chrysler with a 351 Ford  engine and then they want,.. wait for it.....$50,000 plus.... where do they get off!!

They don't do a lick of work themselves, just import it.

Quite frankly I am now sick of going to local Aussie vintage/classic car shows and all you see is rows of bloody LHD Yankee imports.

I can remember when I spent many years hard labour restoring a 1960 MK11 3.8 Jag and proudly took it to a Jag Club Concourse show and I got beaten by an entrant that had found an original pristine extremely low mileage deseased estate MK11that had been stored for years.

He won,.... I lost,.... He did nil work except for a polish, whilst I took many years hard work restoring my car and didn't get a look in, that sucks !!!!

I'm now 72 and my current project is an almost competed Aussie assembled 1939 Chrysler Royal and proud of it.

Lastly I see someone has imported a 1939 Yankee LHD ( Why would they bother ) Chrysler Imperial and now offering it for sale here, whist this is a special car to me it has little appeal to local buyers, but if.. it had a 350 Chev, a Supra 5 speed box and a 9" Ford Diff, lowered 2" inches it would then appeal to local Hotrod knuckle heads, Sheesz!!

Rich

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Guest mbjg0788

Thanks so much for all of your input.  Here are the details.  My Jaguar XJS had an engine fire that destroyed its V12 engine.  I, like many other XJS owners, replaced the V12 engine with a V8 LT1 engine.  Other XJS owners have replaced the V12 with the LT1 or similar V8 engine due to the numerous problems the V12 is known to have.  Due to the large number of XJS owners that have so replaced their V12 engine, Jaguar clubs like Jag-Lovers has a forum called "Lumps" for these owners. Does this information affect or change any of your opinions?

 

Thanks for your help.

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Well with all those Jaguar owners installing Chev engines, it should have been a cinch to find a V12. From what I have heard the V12 is not a bad engine, thirsty but reliable and long lived. It's the Lucas electrics and Lucas fuel injection that let down.

 

I don't know what kind of fire can destroy an engine but leave the body untouched. I suspect the wiring burned and there was nothing wrong with the engine. You got sold a bill of goods by someone who didn't know how to fix the wiring and wasn't interested in learning. And cost was no object since you were paying the bills.

Edited by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)
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I have a hard time calling an XJS an antique vehicle. Nice cars ; and in my opinion at least, nicer with the SBC. The jag 12 was a problem child, I worked on a number of them  years ago. The head studs have a habit of breaking off where they enter the block {at the bottom of the water jacket. A valve job becomes a total strip down, block to a milling machine, new studs , and a bill for several thousand $.

 Great road cars YES, an antique ? not so much.

I would have a pretty hard time calling any post -war Jag an Antique, or any other post -war car for that matter.  But I guess it is all in ones perception.

 

Greg in Canada

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Greg,

My reply and support of what you did is a perfect match for what I said in post #13.  Glad to see another Jaguar still on the road being enjoyed as an automobile instead of a clock.

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I'm inclined to agree with Greg in Canada and Paul Dobbin. I like the XJS quite a bit, but I don't think they've graduated to collector car status and therefore the title of "antique" is misplaced. Yes, technically it qualifies, but it's really just an interesting used car. With an LT1 in it, if it's fully operational, I think it would be both faster and more reliable. This is the kind of modified car that shouldn't ruffle anyone's feathers. If you want a nice XJS with the original V12 in it, you can purchase the very best on in the world for less than $20,000, and there's no shortage of them. Instead, someone's having fun with what is a great-looking car and it hasn't created something anyone should find offensive.

 

Forget about how such a car is classified and just go have fun with it.

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I have had two XJS V12's, a '53 Mark VII and a Series II XJ6. There is a kind of empty feeling when you sell one unless you divert your attention. I prefer my next one to be a Chevy powered XJS and expect to pay $3500 to $4,000 for a nice one. A really nice one.

Bernie

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How much is a Jag worth without an engine? How much is one worth with a Chevy? Oh you just want to drive and enjoy your car for a reasonable cost after an unfortunate event? Well then, you did fine. It'll never win AACA, but it's still a great older car that you can enjoy. If the value ever gets to the point to make it worth while, your car has been spared the bone yard and can be converted back. Enjoy it and don't worry about what other folks say. They can't all be restored, and it's better to be incorrectly on the road than in the crusher.

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A total rebuild on an XJS engine can be ten grand easy. For an 8 grand car. I am a purist - right car must have right engine. That being said there is a 66 Mk X in my driveway with a 350. I sold the jag 6 block and bits for the price of the car, installed the old heart of a monte Carlo and it's fun and reliable. Of all cars in the world that the driving pleasure is hampered only by the stock drivetrains, Jags (and especially v-12s) are the most notable. The XJS actually do already have a good following  and are desirable and in this one case you may be adding to the value of the car if the swap was done well. Don't worry over classification and just enjoy. You will get sneered at by purist types if you sit around at a car show with the hood open. But who cares.

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1996 was the last year for the Jaguar V12. During the intervening decades most of the problems have been experienced, resolved, and preventive measures have been documents. Here is the 750 page living document. http://www.jag-lovers.org/xj-s/book/XJS_help.pdf Yes, I have read it.

 

I owned the stock and driven both pristine and modified. My next one, and that has a way of happening, will have a GM wengine.

Bernie

Edited by 60FlatTop (see edit history)
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I just think it is a classic vehicle, with a newer engine.  Nothing wrong with that if that's what you want.  After all, it's your car.  I don't consider anything after WWII antique, but rather collectible, classic, or whatever other words you want to use.  Of course, those terms are up to the interpretation of many.

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Has anyone noticed that the differentiation between pre-war and post-war cars is a little skewed? About 1900-1942 vs. 1946-2015 keeps getting to be a larger group on one side. And it hasn't stopped.

Bernie

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Has anyone noticed that the differentiation between pre-war and post-war cars is a little skewed? About 1900-1942 vs. 1946-2015 keeps getting to be a larger group on one side. And it hasn't stopped.

Bernie

Weird, huh? I wonder how that happens :rolleyes:;)

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Guest Lucas Esc

I am the owner of an antique vehicle.  The vehicle suffered an engine fire.  The engine was destroyed beyond repair.  It was cost prohibitive to replace the destroyed engine with another antique engine from the same type vehicle.  So, I replaced the destroyed engine with an engine from a different non-antique vehicle.  Does my antique vehicle remain an antique vehicle?

 

Thanks for your help.

 

mbjg0788

 

It's actually pretty relative. Some antique clubs here in Brazil will consider that any car with 80% autenticity is a true antique, even though the way they measure it is not the most reliable. Some purists would say that you commited a heresy, but I think most would agree that is not a big deal.

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