WTB Wisconsin 4 cylinder T Head "M" parts, information needed

[alsfarms]

I have a new project (early Seagrave fire truck basket case) with an "M" Wisconsin 4 cylinder engine.  This engine is a brute with a 5-3/4" bore and 7" stroke.  I would like to locate and purchase a few items.  I think the 6 cylinder "P" series is a sister engine with parts interchangeable between them.  If you have any left over pieces or know of someone who does have parts or information, drop a note.  Thanks.

Alan

[Terry Harper]

Hello Alan,

 

I am currently working on a 6 cylinder  Model "PT" (5-3/4" x 7-1/2") which as you have mentioned is the big brother to your "M". As you have no doubt found out parts and info for these beasts are far and few between. What do you need? I may be able to help.

 

More info on this project here:http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/antique-machinery-history/big-big-wisconsin-t-head-engine-188057/

 

 

Best regards,

 

Terry

[alsfarms]

Hello Terry,  Thanks for taking the time to respond, regarding my new project.  Sadly, my Seagrave was completely knocked into a basket case about 15 years ago.  I mean a SERIOUS basket case.  The previous owner didn't leave anything alone or finish anything before he moved on the the next!  I have made my first trip, to get this project to my home, a few days ago and really have not had a chance to ID parts that I know are missing or damaged.  I hope to get the rest of the big pieces on my next trip in a couple of weeks.  I have a gut feeling that I will be into a third trip before all is said and done.  Anyway, as I was loading I noted several running gear parts that are known to be absent.  These items will be for another forum as they are Seagrave stuff.  Now for what I do know.  I only found and have in my possession 3 of 4 connecting rods.  the good part, the 3 rods I have do have new babbit in them.  I did not locate the water pump, oil pump, carb,, Intake, exhaust or fan.  I really think those items are lurking under his work bench somewhere and have not come to light yet.  I see no damage to the crank case and so far the jugs look good also.  I do have the crank, still in crankcase, cams, lifters and flywheel and I think most if not all of the clutch assembly.  I did not see any of the aluminum covers for the exposed valve springs.  Now a couple of questions for you.  Do you have any information that could help me to determine the year of my engine?  Are all of the M and P engines the same or did they evolve some over time such as the American-LaFrance engines did, depending upon the year?  I do have the Mag, but I do not know if it would be correct or not.  I should be able to date the Mag.  I will try to clean up and post a few pictures of some of the pieces to help with ID.

Alan

[Terry Harper]

Hello Alan,

 

Sounds like you have a good project on your hands! As for determining the year... That's a tough one! These engines were offered for a number of years (Mid teens to late twenties.) Brochures etc. are very hard to come by. The earliest listing I have for a "P" is 1916. By 1930 the "M" and "P" had been dropped. The overhead valve "D" series replaced the "P".

 

As for development - It appears to have been minor. There are some difference in intake manifold design, some have bronze others aluminum crankcases. Some are setup for marine use. Remember, these were high end engines and were quite expensive in their day. According to the brochure I have "The cylinders are finished in a battleship gray enamel and all bronze work highly polished the motors are extremely handsome. The crankcases are filed and scraped to a smooth surface which is therefore easy to kept clean." fit and finish are above average.

 

Roller Lifters & Guides: Do you have the roller lifters and bronze lifter guides? If not I have drawings for those. I had all the guides but I had to make two new lifters.

 

Carb: This should.... key word... should be a Stromberg M4.

 

Magneto: Mine is an American Bosh AT6 so I am assuming an AT4 would be correct but any base mount 4 cylinder mag would work

 

Intake Manifold: I have patterns and core boxes. The original on mine was made with individual bronze castings where as some of the others I have seen are aluminum and are a one piece casting.

 

Oil pump: I lucked out with the pump. I have mine all safely packed away with the other parts but I can easily create a set of drawings for you.

 

Oil pump Drive: The oil pump is driven off the exhaust cam via a helical gear and vertical shaft housed in a bronze casting bolted to the side of the block. I have a pattern and core box for the housing as well as drawings for the gear and shaft.

 

Valves: I could not find a set so I ended up buying a set of stainless steel blanks (for a diesel locomotive!) I had to turn the heads down, cut to length and cut the grooves for the keepers. The only problem I had was the stems were .557" as opposed to .50". However, I had to make new guides anyway so it wasn't an issue - again I have drawings for both the valves and the guides. I also have a pattern for the guides as well.

 

Upper & Lower Water Manifolds: I have a complete set of patterns & core boxes for the upper water manifold as well as drawings. For the Lower water manifold I have all the patterns and core boxes with the exception of the fitting for the rear cylinder.

 

Oil Level indicator: I have drawings for that as well

 

Primer cups: Ditto

 

Primer Cup Studs: Ditto

 

Valve shrouds: Years ago the gentleman I acquired my engine from had a set of patterns and core boxes made and  a set cast. (I was only missing two) so he loaned me the patterns. I also have drawings for these as well as for the spring clips that hold the halves together.

 

Governor: Not sure if yours has one.... Mine was made by Pharo and works with oil pressure. Its driven off the Intake cam via spur gears and right angle drive. If yours is missing it would be fairly easy just to blank it off.

 

Water pump: Mine is cast iron with bronze impeller. The shaft runs in bronze bushings. I have drawings for the impeller, shaft & bushings I can also work-up a set for the water pump body and cover. Some engines have bronze pump bodies.

 

Exhaust manifold: The original was a big cast iron affair which was prone to crack in cold weather due to the distance between the cylinder blocks. I have one for a "PT" However I am going to go with the three stack arrangement typically used by Lombard since I have those on hand as well.

 

Rods: That could be more of a problem. However, not insurmountable. I just reverse engineered a set for a 1910 Mitchell and a Michigan Big 40. The rod bearings should be bronze backed babbitt. The shells are held in place with countersunk screws. The mains are the same.... I still have to get all the Babbitt work done on mine. ($$$$)

 

 

P.M. me your e-mail address. I have a Lombard parts manual. While its for the "P" series most of the parts should be interchangeable with the "M". it lists and shows every engine part which may be useful.

 

 

Best regards,

 

Terry

Edited June 19, 2015 by Terry Harper (see edit history)

[alsfarms]

Thanks for this information.  You have a nice variety of work into your engine.  Do you have any idea when you will be close to a start up?  Do you knwo of any other Wisconsin engines in running condition?  I have sent you a PM.

Al

[alsfarms]

Here I a couple of pictures of the Model M Wisconsin project.

Al

[alsfarms]

Just a note for those who may be interested in custom pistons needed for one of our antique engines.  I checked EGGE, Carillo, Keith Black and Ross as possible piston suppliers.  I found that Keith Black, a subsidiary of United Machine, does not at this time build custom pistons.  They are trying to get set up to do so in the near future, it may be worth a check back.  They have their shop in Douglas Ariz.  Next, EGGE does do pistons, we all knew that, but they are more money and 5 week turnaround.  Carillo can also do the king sized pistons but are about the same money are EGGE.  Lastly, I checked with Ross Piston.  They were the least money and shortest turn around time.  This is my learning at this point in time.  I need to have the Wisconsin Jugs cleaned up to determine exactly what sized piston to have made.  More later on this subject.

Al