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I LOVE MODIFIED CARS, and STOCK'S TOOOOOO, but.


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With that said, here is how SOME purist rub me.

 

Genius:  I want to see the manager of the book department.

 

Purist:  Oh, there isn't one, Sir.

 

Genius:  Well, who looks after the pictures?

 

Purist:  That's done by machinery, Sir.

 

Genius:  Isn't there a clerk who an examine patents?

 

Purist:  Quite unnecessary, Sir.  EVERYTHING THAT CAN BE INVENTED HAS BEEN INVENTED.

 

Genius:  Well, I want to leave a novel, a picture, an idea.

 

Purist:  YOU must be rather OLD-FASHIONED, Sir.  All sorts of work is done, nowadays, by mental photography.

 

Genius:  Oh, I see, YOU don't want to see my works, YOU, know what's best for me/us.

 

Dale in Indy

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Too deep for me and I am Liberal ! Wayne

 

Another non sequitur in a veritable cascade of them.  I fear it's contagious and is making my head hurt ... where's my tinfoil helmet?

 

He may be Shakespeare, but I disagree with his message ... or perhaps the other way round, depending on meteorological circumstances.

 

Confused, I am,

Grog

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I believe he's trying to point out that purists want to stay in the past, and not realize that there are "improvements" to automobiles that have happened over the years.

 

That train of though totally misses the mind set of a true purist.

 

When we apply "purist" to an automobile collector, what we should be meaning is someone who wants to preserve the past for what it is, not what it could be.

 

A purist wants to experience cars as they were built, mechanical foibles and all.  A purist wants to have to tinker with his or her car, fixing this and adjusting that, as part of the fun and experience of owning and driving an old car.

 

A purist realizes that the automobiles were as reliable as they could be at the time, and that slow starting, hard steering, bad brakes, aren't always how it was, but how 50 or 80 or how many years of wear made it.  A purist knows that cars were very drivable back then, because they were "new" mechanically, and not worn out.

 

A purist enjoys all that, and if he wants something that drives like a new car, he buys a new car, and doesn't destroy history.

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I believe he's trying to point out that purists want to stay in the past, and not realize that there are "improvements" to automobiles that have happened over the years.

That train of though totally misses the mind set of a true purist.

When we apply "purist" to an automobile collector, what we should be meaning is someone who wants to preserve the past for what it is, not what it could be.

A purist wants to experience cars as they were built, mechanical foibles and all. A purist wants to have to tinker with his or her car, fixing this and adjusting that, as part of the fun and experience of owning and driving an old

A purist realizes that the automobiles were as reliable as they could be at the time, and that slow starting, hard steering, bad brakes, aren't always how it was, but how 50 or 80 or how many years of wear made it. A purist knows that cars were very drivable back then, because they were "new" mechanically, and not worn out.

A purist enjoys all that, and if he wants something that drives like a new car, he buys a new car, and doesn't destroy history.

Very, very well said. I agree totally. Wayne

Edited by AlCapone (see edit history)
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Oh, I agree with trimacar.

 

I was just havin a LAZY day, and after Mr. Earl said HAVE AT IT regarding STOCKERS and MODIFIES, I just had some fun. 

 

I love stock cars toooooo, but that quote is actually a quote from 1899 when talking about the patent office.   I added a bit to hit the Purist head on, 

 

Forgive me, life is a blast, I'm enjoying such as I approach my 80th.

 

The TRUTH is, and as you ALL know,  YOU DO KNOW DON'T YOU?, "It takes a real man to cut up a car".

 

And the fun goes on, and on, and on,

 

Dale in Indy

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I believe he's trying to point out that purists want to stay in the past, and not realize that there are "improvements" to automobiles that have happened over the years.

 

That train of though totally misses the mind set of a true purist.

 

When we apply "purist" to an automobile collector, what we should be meaning is someone who wants to preserve the past for what it is, not what it could be.

 

A purist wants to experience cars as they were built, mechanical foibles and all.  A purist wants to have to tinker with his or her car, fixing this and adjusting that, as part of the fun and experience of owning and driving an old car.

 

A purist realizes that the automobiles were as reliable as they could be at the time, and that slow starting, hard steering, bad brakes, aren't always how it was, but how 50 or 80 or how many years of wear made it.  A purist knows that cars were very drivable back then, because they were "new" mechanically, and not worn out.

 

A purist enjoys all that, and if he wants something that drives like a new car, he buys a new car, and doesn't destroy history.

Very well said.

I figured it was a stir the pot topic, just enough to raise the old blood pressure a few points.

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Oh, I agree with trimacar.

 

I was just havin a LAZY day, and after Mr. Earl said HAVE AT IT regarding STOCKERS and MODIFIES, I just had some fun. 

 

I love stock cars toooooo, but that quote is actually a quote from 1899 when talking about the patent office.   I added a bit to hit the Purist head on, 

 

Forgive me, life is a blast, I'm enjoying such as I approach my 80th.

 

The TRUTH is, and as you ALL know,  YOU DO KNOW DON'T YOU?, "It takes a real man to cut up a car".

 

And the fun goes on, and on, and on,

 

Dale in Indy

 

Amen, brother.

 

Life is good,

Grog

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Oh, I agree with trimacar.

I was just havin a LAZY day, and after Mr. Earl said HAVE AT IT regarding STOCKERS and MODIFIES, I just had some fun.

I love stock cars toooooo, but that quote is actually a quote from 1899 when talking about the patent office. I added a bit to hit the Purist head on,

Forgive me, life is a blast, I'm enjoying such as I approach my 80th.

The TRUTH is, and as you ALL know, YOU DO KNOW DON'T YOU?, "It takes a real man to cut up a car".

And the fun goes on, and on, and on,

Dale in Indy

I think I understand, now.

It was the leap from cars to patents where I got lost

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I still don't understand why "modifiers" think it is their mission in life to change the "purists'" way of thinking and vice versa. Back in the wild and wooly 1960's I believe I heard someone say "different strokes for different folks". I must however disagree that "it takes a real man to cut up a car". We do 95% restoration to original and 5% mods (currently doing our 3rd street rod in 36 years). Doing a restoration to original is much more difficult.

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I still don't understand why "modifiers" think it is their mission in life to change the "purists'" way of thinking and vice versa. Back in the wild and wooly 1960's I believe I heard someone say "different strokes for different folks". I must however disagree that "it takes a real man to cut up a car". We do 95% restoration to original and 5% mods (currently doing our 3rd street rod in 36 years). Doing a restoration to original is much more difficult.

That's why they make Chocolate AND Vanilla.

Someone modifying a car, does not have to research what is "correct" .

So, that's one less monkey on thier back

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Oh, I agree with trimacar.

 

I was just havin a LAZY day, and after Mr. Earl said HAVE AT IT regarding STOCKERS and MODIFIES, I just had some fun. 

 

I love stock cars toooooo, but that quote is actually a quote from 1899 when talking about the patent office.   I added a bit to hit the Purist head on, 

 

Forgive me, life is a blast, I'm enjoying such as I approach my 80th.

 

The TRUTH is, and as you ALL know,  YOU DO KNOW DON'T YOU?, "It takes a real man to cut up a car".

 

And the fun goes on, and on, and on,

 

Dale in Indy

 

  Ah, shucks, Dale, you ruined it by splainen. :P

 

  Ben

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OK, Jack M., point taken. 

 

How about "destroy historical accuracy".  Even restoration does that a lot of times, when things get chromed that never were originally, for example.

 

How about "destroy a link to the past".  A lot of European historical sites were destroyed by World Wars (and still are by current wars), to your point, that didn't destroy history, but it destroyed the relics and reminders of those historical periods, the things that allow us to better understand what people over the ages did and thought and had to deal with...

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A perfect example is present day Iraq and Iran. The birthplaces of civilization, still inadequately researched and much of what remains is being systematically destroyed and to what end? My background and degree is in Archaeology and my heart aches at what is being done in the name of revolution.

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It all boils down to individual perspectives.

 

I say never judge a person unless you have stood in their shoes.

It all boils down to this; AACA General section is basically the purest section of the site and what AACA stands for. To go to the general section and talk about modified this or that is poking at the purest or AACA values. Most people know this.

Wouldn't it be fun to go Hot Rod magazine or the Hamb or a custom car show and bring up purest values??? I think not, that would just create ill feelings and stir the pot. Better to let those guys do what they want and let people who have a different perspective of the car hobby be here.

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It all boils down to this; AACA General section is basically the purest section of the site and what AACA stands for. To go to the general section and talk about modified this or that is poking at the purest or AACA values. Most people know this.Wouldn't it be fun to go Hot Rod magazine or the Hamb or a custom car show and bring up purest values??? I think not, that would just create ill feelings and stir the pot. Better to let those guys do what they want and let people who have a different perspective of the car hobby be here.

Hear, hear ! Wayne

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Personally, I find modified cars, especially modified rare or historic vehicles an aberration and from my perspective the practise is essentially unsustainable.  I am guilty of "improving" some good old cars in the past but would I do it now?  No Way !  . 

 

These days, the same type of cars that my generation were chopping, lowering and generally bastardising to go faster 40 years ago are selling for a premium if they have remained original and unspoilt.  Even restoration projects are selling for figures that owners of gaudy hybrids can only dream about. The tide is turning in favour of the "oily rag".

 

I suggest the "pot stirrer" who started this thread consider the consequences of wholesale destruction of American motoring heritage that we are left with today.  The sight is not a pretty one from the serious enthusiast's standpoint but you don't need to be a "purist" to realise that things have gone too far.

 

There have to be sensible exceptions, however.  Even the most rare and valuable cars which are the least obvious candidates for modification sometimes benefit from improvement. For example, I doubt there are many who would seriously question Jay Leno putting front wheel brakes on his DOBLE steam car  ( of course there will be some ) or perhaps converting the Aston Martin DBS to 'Vantage' spec as it was a factory option anyway.  I would even go as far as to say that an engine swap is a reasonable option so long as it is, externally at least, a like for like.  Where I disagree is when changes are completely out of character; it is then that the antique car looses credibility.   

 

Some of us have been there, done that and seen it all before. When it comes to modified,  it's not so much "old car" as "old hat". 

Edited by R.White (see edit history)
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To be honest, even people well-versed in the hobby are forgetting (or never even really knew) what "unmodified" means. The Ohio Region of the CCCA hosts a big car show every Father's Day and we insist on unmodified, stock, as-the-factory-made-them cars. This year, for the first time, we added a check box on the registration form where you indicate that your car is unmodified and then you put your initials next to it. We're hoping to avoid the half-dozen or so hot-rods that show up each year and make a big scene when they're asked to leave, which embarrasses everyone. Last year a guy with a big engine and giant tires on his '60s Dodge was asked to leave and he did a huge burnout in the parking lot before he left. Yeah, that's the kind of quality people we want...

 

My wife, who is the registrar for the show, is being innundated by questions about what qualifies as stock, unmodified, etc.

 

"I have a 1954 Jaguar that uses an electronic ignition, can I still bring my car?"

 

"My 1968 Mustang has radial tires, can I still come?"

 

"My 1929 Model A has a modern water pump, can I still go to the show?

 

"My car is converted to 12 volts, is it still eligible?"

 

This is a veritable minefield she is forced to walk through because the line is so blurry and ill-defined. How "modified" is modified? If it looks stock, is it OK or will someone call us out on it? If we let a car with aftermarket wheels in, what happens next year when someone at this year's show wants to bring HIS car with aftermarket wheels (and maybe some other modifications)? It's a very slippery slope indeed. A good example is a guy who contacted us yesterday who owns a 1926 Model T with period-built Mercury speedster body. Is it modified? Well, yes, but I say let it in because it was done in-period (or at least could have been). However, there are those in the club with different opinions, all of them valid--it IS a modified car. It's a pretty gray area.

 

It seems to me that purists know how the cars are supposed to be and are concerned that ANY modification will exclude them, and I don't think that's right because altering an old car is almost inevitable to keep them on the road or to maximize our enjoyment of them. On the other hand, there are plenty of folks with heavily modified cars who don't seem to understand that the cars are modified at all. For example, a lady contacted us and told us that her '56 hardtop (make undefined) looked stock and could she bring it. We asked for photos. Sure enough, a 1956 Chevy with modern paint, shaved trim, lowered suspension, big wheels, chrome engine, and leather interior. She apparently had no clue that the factory didn't build that car like that and even told us WE were the morons because we didn't understand what "stock" meant. WTF?

 

There's a disconnect, but only one side of the equation seems to enjoy actively sticking their thumbs in the eyes of the other (post #1 is a perfect case-in-point). Every single one of the dozen or so hot rods that show up the morning of our show and expect to get in at the gate (it's pre-registration only, there's a fininte amount of space) goes away angry, acting like WE are the problem.

Edited by Matt Harwood (see edit history)
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There is a monthly cruise in about 1 mile from our shop that draws primarily modifieds. On a lark we "cruised in" in  a 1918 Milburn Electric. Turned out there was a reporter from the local paper who didn't realize electric cars even existed prior to the 21st century. He was fascinated and the next day the Milburn was pictured in his newspaper write up on the cruise in. This elicited several nasty letters to the editor complaining that the reporter totally ignored all the spectacularly "restored" cars on display in favor of "that ratty old antique". It was great fun.

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Tolerance?  We all need a little.  Maybe instead of asking people to leave, we might have a place for modified vehicles as a class or section for them to park and enjoy our un-modified vehicles. "We're not set up to judge your vehicle, but you are welcome to display yours in our modified section for the regular show fee".  Nothing adds to the rift between cars guys more than intolerance.

Example:  One year after completing 4400 miles of the Great American Race in a totally stock 1934 Ford, we took the car to a local region of the AACA show and we're rejected , our money refused and asked to leave the show field.  Why?  Because the car still had the GAR decals on it and that made it "commercial", and that couldn't be tolerated.  I never joined that local Region because of their bull headed intolerance.

We parked across the street and hundreds of people came to see & ask questions.  Actually we brought two identictal 34 Fords, one GAR ready, the other in showroom condition.  It was a great exhibit of what fun can be had with stock antique cars, but was apparently an unacceptable sin to the AACA group that missed the chance to collect our money and not have another two cars to judge.  Fortunatly, all across the USA, we met only nice accepting people who enjoyed antique cars and the adventure we were enjoying.

Tolerance is a good thing.  

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  What Matt said;    A good example is a guy who contacted us yesterday who owns a 1926 Model T with period-built Mercury speedster body. Is it modified? Well, yes, but I say let it in because it was done in-period (or at least could have been). However, there are those in the club with different opinions, all of them valid--it IS a modified car. It's a pretty gray area.

 

To what Paul said;    Maybe instead of asking people to leave, we might have a place for modified vehicles as a class or section for them to park and enjoy our un-modified vehicles.

 

Gentlemen, those concessions are THE very slippery slopes not to get into!

At your car shows you can also have another line of defense to help Matts wife with being overwhelmed. Most of the cars shows I have participated in require a Fire extinguisher. Part of that requirement should require a TECH inspection and this is where you might be able to keep things straight regarding modified vs. stock. Another way is to empower your participants by giving them the power to protest a car.

 

Regarding this slippery slope subject. I once belonged to a brand specific club that was formed by just purest. Later some people began joining the club with modified cars. The first thing that happened was the people with modified cars demanded a spot on the show field for modifieds. They didn't get it. Then they flooded the membership with people who had modified cars. They then voted and changed the by-laws of the club to allow modified cars. Today, most of the clubs members cars are modified and most of us purest are long gone. For this reason when Biscayne John came to the forum with is concern for his club, VCCA I voice my concern on his behalf, I've seen this so many times and it is indeed a slippery slope.

Edited by helfen (see edit history)
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Guest BillP

Purest: most pure. "This is the purest gold nugget I have ever seen."

 

Purist: One who appreciates the most pure. "I only look for those because I am a purist."

 

Purists: A group of those appreciate the most pure. "As purists, we seek the best." 

 

My wife and have enjoyed the Pebble Beach Concours/Monterey Historics weekend for years. The Concours has traditionally showcased cars restored to their original configuration, or as they may have been driven out of the showroom. A few years ago, they opened a class for hot rods and maybe customs. They were OK, I guess, but to me, they were an impediment to see and inspect the antiques and classics.

 

The Historics, on the other hand, feature race cars of every stripe, from Miller Indy cars to Porsche 917-30 CanAm. Race cars are built to one purpose and are modified until the spec changes or they are overtaken by the competition. At the end of their top-level careers, they begin the swift march downward through the second and third tier teams, on to the amateurs, then are stripped and dragged out behind the barn. If they are fortunate, they will be resurrected and we will see them again, bright, shiny, fast and loud. I like the those cars, all of them.

 

I don't see myself as a purist; the word has become a cliche' and does not really apply. I appreciate all kinds of old machinery, as long as it's done with taste and class. Of course, I define those, too. Chopping, lowering and modifying to accommodate a trend is foolish. You see a lot of that these days. 

Edited by BillP (see edit history)
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