1912Minerva Posted May 24, 2015 Share Posted May 24, 2015 Hello All, After weeks (months?) of trying to get my Hup Model 20 running right I discovered that the fuel adjustment valve on the NH Holley carburettor I am using was not screwing down properly. The lock nut was preventing the needle valve from getting even close to the jet so the poor old girl has been running terribly rich. After rectifying this and opening up the plug gaps the motor is running quite nicely and I was able to take it up and down the street which was great. I got into top (first time ever) and it felt like it wanted to really go.There is a whining sound in first gear which disappeared in top - any ideas? I have no idea what the gear selection bolts in the side of the gearbox do...even when I had it apart I couldn't work it out so I just backed each one right out...can anyone explain what they do and what the correct adjustment might be??When I first got the motor going it had a bad whine which has now disappeared - I think this is due to putting thicker gasket paper between engine block and cam shaft plate (0.8 to 1.5 mm). There is a video of a Model 20 on Youtube that has the same bad whine and I am sure this car has the same problem (not that it seems to worry the fella in the video).My main worry now is trying to stop the oil that is coming out the front of the engine and being sprayed around by the flywheel. I know folk on this forum have said that is what they do but this seems a bit extreme. I am currently running a straight 30 weight oil while it is tight so maybe when I go back to a regular multigrade oil when it has loosened up a bit it may be better. I have been running it and driving with out the bonnet on and oil has been getting EVERWHERE. I have been reading Phil's thread on timing with interest. I can advance my DU4 after starting and when fully advanced when I put the timing light on it seems to be firing right at TDC. Hopefully this means chances of a broken wrist are low... Anyway, thanks to the help I have received on this forum I feel I am making progress towards getting my car properly on the road. I had forgotten how direct the Hup 20 steering is! Regards, Andrew. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted May 24, 2015 Share Posted May 24, 2015 Hi- glad to hear your Hupp is on the road! As to the whine in first gear, best case is it's just the straight cut gears making the noise that they do. Make sure you're running a heavy weight oil in the transmission. Worst case, the rear two bushings (one large, one small) are worn. The two rear bushings make everything in the transmission case line up, and are usually quite worn. As to the "adjusting bolts", I thought these held in detents for internal shafts, but it's been a long time since I had my transmission apart. The oil coming out of the bearing behind the flywheel is always a problem, I've never had my crankcase out, but assume it's a function of the clearance on front bearing. It was such a common thing that Hupp equipped the cars with a splash shield covering the flywheel and front of engine (see picture attached). As far as oil goes, if you put in a multi-weight, you're oil leakage problem will be much worse when cold. For example, a 10W30 oil at ambient temperature acts like a 10 weight oil, then as it heats up acts like a 30W oil at 210 degrees F. I don't think that's good for these engines, and like running a straight 30W all the time. If you're running a carburetor other than the original Breeze, would guess your intake manifold has been cut off at the bottom. If you ever want to go back to original, I think someone's now casting new intake manifolds. The Hupp also came with a fixed timing magneto originally, slightly advanced timing at proper setting (per period sales booklet). I know some people swear by adding a variable timing magneto, personally I think there's little advantage over a properly timed original set up. . It sounds like, at full advancement on your variable set up, you're not quite at the fixed factory setting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1910Hupp Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 ......The Hupp also came with a fixed timing magneto originally, slightly advanced timing at proper setting (per period sales booklet). I know some people swear by adding a variable timing magneto, personally I think there's little advantage over a properly timed original set up. . It sounds like, at full advancement on your variable set up, you're not quite at the fixed factory setting.David this confuses me the first mark on the front of the cylinder block is TDC ( I confirmed this with the engine apart) So if you set the timing to the mark to the right of this (given the flywheel turns this way) then you are setting the timing retarded after TDC not advanced! Am I right or am I deluded ?? Karl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1912Minerva Posted May 25, 2015 Author Share Posted May 25, 2015 Hi David, Thank you for the pic of your oil guard - I have seen it before on a previous thread but forgot to ask - how / where does it attach? I can't quite see in your pic although I can see what look like some pins - do these attach to the wooden valances that hold the bonnet (hood) catches? I am also running the 30 weight oil in the gearbox. Way too light I would have thought but this is what local Hup expert Edgar recommended to me (he said run the same oil in motor and gearbox as they intermingle). What do other folk run in their gearboxes? Bushings and everything looked fine when we had the gearbox out. You are correct in guessing that my intake manifold has been cut off so wouldn't be able to fit an original Breeze even if I had one. When I bought the car it had some strange Tillotson carby on it that had no adjustments whatsoever. I think it may have come off an Overland. Surprisingly it will run with that carb, but very badly. Cheers, Andrew. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 The exact quote from the 1910 sales brochure: "Fixed Spark""There is no spark control, as the magneto is set with a slight advance and generates a hotter spark at high engine speeds. This has been found satisfactory in France". I run a fixed spark on my 1910, but have no personal knowledge of timing. When I first took the car apart in 1976, I cleaned the gears and made a red paint dot to show where the magneto gears mated, and it runs great at that spot. I believe it is slightly advanced, because if you're hesitant on your cranking, it will fuss at you by pushing back a little, not really a kickback, but a nudge back. I believe 30 weight is way too light for the gearbox. The straight gears need a better cushion than that, particularly when shifting. You can't go too heavy or it starts affecting your shifting, but at least a 90 weight, which is what's in mine. The "intermingling" won't affect anything. Also, I run a heavy semi-fluid grease in the rear end, this works great and just about eliminates leaks from that location. On the fan cover, there are two triangular shaped brackets, which bolt to the frame under the wood sill. These have end edges curled over like a hinge, the cover has the rest of the "hinge", and a pin on each side holds in place. I think I have an extra pair of these laying around, will take a picture if I can put my hands on them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MochetVelo Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 (edited) Now I'm confused about the fixed timing. I assumed a fixed-time magneto was set slightly retarded to avoid kick-back when crank-starting. The manual (pg. 26) says to align the punch marks on the cylinder with the "CL-1&4-UP" marks on the flywheel (this is TDC) "and then shift this mark 3/8 of an inch to the RIGHT of the marks... on the face of the cylinder." That is, the flywheel is turned 3/8" past TDC, slightly retarding the spark. Phil Edited May 25, 2015 by MochetVelo (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MochetVelo Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 Here is a 1910 article from MoTor magazine titled "Fixed vs. Controllable Ignition Timing": https://books.google.com/books?id=fTgjAQAAMAAJ&lpg=RA1-PA57&ots=HcyklLDUam&dq=timing%20a%20fixed-spark%20magneto&pg=RA1-PA56#v=onepage&q=timing%20a%20fixed-spark%20magneto&f=true Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1910Hupp Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 The book does talk about the advanced timing- the point is that setting it up as they suggest does not give advanced timing but slightly retarded. (Only slightly as 3/8 of an inch is not many degrees on the flywheel ) . I suspect the person who wrote the book was the same person who labelled the 16.9 HP engine as 20 HP!! In the end it doesn't matter if it runs fine when set up by the book that's great if it doesn't then you just adjust it till it does. Karl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 Well, assuming a 16 inch flywheel (haven't measure mine just guessing), that's 50 inch circumference, so 3/8 of an inch is (3/8 / 50) X 360 degrees = 2.7 degrees. Do you move the mark 3/8 PAST dead center, in direction of engine rotation? That would be slightly advanced timing, by 2.7 degrees..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1910Hupp Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 (edited) No Advanced as in early ignition is spark before (or closer to)TDC and retarded as in late ignition is spark after (or further away from) TDC . In the recent Thread "Timing the Model 20" Max talks about setting the ignition by turning the flywheel back by 3/8 of inch from TDC which will set the timing advanced by 2.7 degrees but of course this is the opposite of what the book says -Karl Edited May 27, 2015 by Hupdoc (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 I had my dunce cap on and was thinking backwards, I have comprehensive understanding now. thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max BURKE Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 G,day Huppers. The adjusting bolts are to determine the in and out position of the reverse gear. Adjust the in position so that the link inside the box is over centre so its harder for the gear to kick it out when reversing and you lift your foot, otherwise you have to hold reverse with your leg. Max Burke Nulkaba 2325 Australia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1910Hupp Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 David I'm glad one of us does it still confuses me ! I once asked my Grandfather a highly skilled mechanic (as was his father before him) how they set the timing before timing lights . He just laughed and said when it was set right it ran right -a a trip round the block told you all you needed to know . Sometimes I think we over complicate things -Karl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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