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ex98thdrill
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Our truck (olive green '37 Plymouth PT-50 pickup) was at the Purchase meet and it took its senior award over the weekend. Is there anyone out there who judged the truck? <P>I know we had enough points to take the senior, but next year we want to go for our grand national award. If you have any pointers on how we can improve the truck, let me know.

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Happy you got your Senior! I would say "Contact Russ Fisher, VP Class Judging." But when you won you lost the chance to see the areas you may in which you may have lost points. Since you know your truck better than anyone, use your best information. If all seems well, go for that Grand National.

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I don't know for sure, but you may be asking somone to get themselves in trouble with the AACA. I have only attended one Judges School, but I came away understanding that ONLY the head judge should talk to the owner. There was no time frame mentioned so, I assume, that also includes talking to the owner when the show is over.<BR>In case I am correct and members of the judging team should NOT correspond with you, I would suggest contacting the head judge about getting a copy of your score sheet. My understanding is that you will not receive a report with exact numbers for points deducted, but you will be advised as to where points were deducted.<BR>If I am wrong, I hope someone more experienced will post the corrections.<BR>Until then, thanks "48" for your involvement in this hobby and, especially, the job you are doing for our country. My hat is off to you!

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Ron is slightly off here. During the judging only the Team Captain, not the judges, may talk to the owner about any problems or requests for documentation. During such conversation there will be no discussion of points deducted, however, the Team Captain may inform the owner of any major/significant problems. Some owners think any deduction is major, however this discussion will generally only take place if there were some maximum deductions or some authenticity concerns.<P>The VP Class Judging can provide info on areas of deductions, but NOT actual points deducted, but only if the vehicle did NOT get the award it was going for. We used to provide this info for all owners who requested it, but the correspondence just got overwhelming. <P>Congrats on the Senior. Am looking forward to seeing the truck. Will it be at Hershey? smile.gif" border="0

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Father Ron,<BR>Thanks for adding your expertease but one thing still bothers me. If I had been one of the judges on that team and I was one assigned to the engine compartment, wouldn't it be a no-no for me to come on here and post that points were deducted for this or that? Since I was not the Team Captain, the Chief Judge or the VP Class Judging, doesn't AACA expect me to keep my mouth shut?

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Guys, guys, guys, RELAX!! I'm not trying to start another war, I'm already in one. We got our senior over the weekend, and I'm only asking if anyone out there judged the vehicle. If you did and you've got some ideas on its faults and your assistance can help us achieve our grand national next year, where is the crime? If you judged our truck and you don't want to say anything, then don't. If you did and you care enough to help us with information to improve our truck, then I'm willing to listen. All we want to do is enhance our vehicle, is that wrong? If someone takes offense for me asking questions as to how we can improve our vehicle, then I feel sorry for you, because the intent is for self improvement and nothing else. At this point we know we had at least 375 points, but is there something out there that we can do to ensure a 385 or 390 point vehicle? A lot of times a fresh set of eyes see something that you don't always see yourself.<P>As for the truck, we had it registered for Hershey so we could try to get our senior if the Purchase show didn't work out. It looks like now we'll be going for our preservation award. Next year when I get back, we'll probably shoot for the Grand National.

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Hey 98,<BR>I'm not trying to start a war either, I'm looking for the same thing you are... accurate information. As I stated in my first post, I have only attended one Judges School and by no means consider myself an expert. At the same time, I would probably do the same thing you're doing if it wouldn't mean someone breaking the rules.<BR>As I stated in my first post, I had the understanding that a general member of the judging team should not communicate with a car owner, period. In my second post, I asked that if I were a member of the team (not a captain) judging your engine, would it be OK to come on this forum and tell you that I recall points being deducted for this or that. So far, I have not received an answer to that question.<BR>If it turns out that a member of the judging team IS allowed to talk to a car owner after the show is over, I encourage any of those who did judge your pickup to offer you any info they can. As you said, a pair of eyes that sees your truck for the first time may see things that you and your dad have seen for years and not thought to be unordinary. I hope someone experienced in AACA judging will come on and answer this question.<BR>Until then, congratulations on your Senior, thanks for fighting for our country and please come home safe and help your dad with the upcoming shows!

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Ron and 98, This is not war. I understand what Ron was saying and after rereading my post I guess it was not well stated. At no time, during or after the judging should a team member, other than the Team Captain, talk about the vehicle to the owner and never under any circumstances reveal the amounts of deductions. Those are the rules. <P>However, this does not mean that a judge who did not judge the vehicle at a specific meet cannot be asked to offer any suggestions independent of the judging system. Am I muddying the water here. blush.gif" border="0

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I can understand that, it is hard to understand words because typed words don't have a tone, where spoken words can be interpreted based on their audible tone. All I was asking for to begin with was some constructive criticsm so that we can get our truck in better shape. I don't care about exact points, I'm not asking for anyone to get in trouble, but I know in the case of last year we lost one point a piece for not having blued spark plugs. In our case, someone pointed it out, we corrected it, and picked up six more points. No one told us that we lost six points because of spark plugs, and there is nothing saying that they took the 6 points to begin with, but we made changes, and we've got our senior to show with it. Not knowing our actual score from the first show, those six points that we picked up, may have made the difference between getting our senior and getting nothing. If someone actually judged the truck and saw somthing that we can improve on so that we can get the grand national, then I'm willing to listen, and it'll give us all winter to fix it. From the show in Johnstown to the point where we went to Purchase, we pulled the engine out, repainted everything, and then made corrections in the truck bed. I'm not saying that it made the difference, but we followed some advice, and have something to show for it.

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That would work too. If we gan gain some more points by overlooking a simple thing, then I would like to know about it so we can do it. We've never asked for a judge to point things out as they're judging it, but after everything is said and done, I don't see a problem with constructive criticism. Although you can follow the AACA rulebook, you can still lose points for something that isn't specified. <P> For example, at our first show (we got our junior) he had "zip" ties holding our wires together so that the wiring harness looked neat and orderly. Obviously zip ties weren't available in 1937, but someone pointed it out (after judging was done) by someone who did not judge our truck, and the corrections were made. There's nothing in the rulebook stating that points would be deducted.<P> I was planning on going to judging school just to gain the knowledge of different things. Once I get back, I will probably do so. In the meantime, I'm only asking questions, and I'm not trying to argue any points.

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Ex98drill ~ Maybe you did pick up the key phrase in Father Ron's last post, but quoting from what your last post said:<BR> "If someone actually judged the truck and saw somthing that we can improve on so that we can get the grand national, then I'm willing to listen, and it'll give us all winter to fix it."<BR>I don't think so. Not one single judge who judged the vehicle at the Purchase show is allowed to communicate to/with you anything about it. By so doing, the judge could lose the privilege of ever judging in AACA again.<BR>I don't mean to sound harsh but it just seemed to me that you didn't pick up on exactly what he was saying.<BR>I understand your frustration with not being able to get the info you want. "Been there, done that" also.<BR>Let me add my thanks to the others for what you are doing for us and our country.<BR>Patt<P><BR>[ 08-22-2002: Message edited by: Ms63falcon ]<p>[ 08-22-2002: Message edited by: Ms63falcon ]

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Ex98<P>All judging aside and putting aside what you are trying to ask here....because I don't think you will get the answers you are looking for here....what you needed to do is what I did many years ago and what now happens to me when I bring my car to a show anywhere....while the vehicle is in Show Stance...looking as good as you can have it....ask the guys and gals at the show.."who is the best, who's knows these vehicles the best?" or if you are lucky, there is an excellent example of your truck at the show...and ask those people/owner/s to come look at your vehicle...ask them to be brutally honest....Those are the people that will tell you where the faults are. That's what I did, ( Not within AACA though) and now guys ask me...ask me to come look at their 66 or 67 Chevelle and give them some pointers and you would be surprised at how SURPRISED they are to find out " you got some work ahead of you!" They just don't see it or don't know... but asking now...I fear it is too late frown.gif" border="0<P>Be honest....with yourself...tell us where YOU think your truck could use improvement. <P>If money where no object...what would you Fix or Correct? <P>I can tell you, there are somethings on that truck that need attention, and some of it, you know about...be honest... and some of that stuff...the judges didn't see, some of it they did., and ya know what...some of the things you lost points for last year....you may not have lost points for this year, and the next time you show it, you may lose different points....why? SUBJECTIVE. Judging is never without subjectivity....NEVER. What I see as PERFECT, others see as NICE, and vice versa...<P>Take it from someone who knows firsthand....<P>But again, I ask you...step back, look at each area of your truck and see what might be in need of some attention...it's there wink.gif" border="0<P>and let us know what you come up with.<P>Mike

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Now that this item of who can talk and who can't has been cleared up, I can only encourage those who saw 98's truck at the Purchase show to offer any help that they can. From your posts, I know that a lot of the DF regulars attended that show and you probably saw their pickup. If you saw something that seemed odd to you, bring it up here on the forum. It may be that what seemed odd to you is an actual characteristic of that year Plymouth or maybe it is one of those stray things that 98 and his dad are looking for.<BR>Hey, this guy is over there fighting for all of the rest of us and I don't think this request is too much to ask. If any of you can offer even a little help, PLEASE do so!<BR>98... When you do return, I encourage you to attend some of the judges schools. They will not only help you in future restorations, they will also give you a better insight into this great hobby.

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You're right Ron. It was a deal where I had planned to go to judging school and ended up in a warzone. I know that's how you gain the knowledge, but I also know that you don't do a good restoration and leave your vehicle while you're off judging something else. The major disadvantage is that being a Plymouth pickup, we haven't been parked next to another one. The philosophy of comparison to another vehicle is admirable, you can't do it when you have nothing to compare it to. The truck went to a national Plymouth meet and scored an 85 out of 100 points. In that case it was the only pickup, and 3 points were deducted because we simply forgot to put the stickers on the aircleaner, voltage regulator and starter. There again, we realized that we had forgot something that had totally slipped our mind, and now we're going to correct that. As for the subjectiveness of judging you're right. I've seen instances on a local level where people will form a biased opinion on a vehicle based on make, owner, color, etc. and judge for or against a vehicle.

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Get yourself a blank judging sheet,I believe one is included in the Judging manual,nothing secret about them..go over the truck item by item and evaluate for authenticity, workmanship, and condition, just like the judges do. Are your tires correct for the vehicle? Metal valve stem covers as opposed to plastic? Is the glass all clean and unscratched? Correct hose clamps? I judged at the show but not your class of course, surprising the number of vehicles I saw with non-factory radial tires..you might find an AACA judge in your area to go over the truck and give you his or her opinion of the areas that need attention. Also remember..accessories, even factory ones can only hurt your score not help it since we judge accessories the same as any other part of the vehicle. Do you have signage or lettering on the truck that is inappropriate for the period, again a deduction...Look on the bright side..maybe your truck scored a perfect 400, it does happen!

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true. The only thing that we've done that isn't correct is that we added front turn signals and a second tail light (tastefully done). According to the rulebook, it states that it can be done for safety reasons so long as it is tastefully done (not a direct quote). Like I said, I know if we can improve our truck another 10 points, that'll help us reach the next level. We may have done it already, but all we know is that we had enough points for senior. Like I said before, at one time we had plastic zip ties holding our wires together only to keep everything neat, and we took them off. There's no lettering on the truck and I've got pictures of the original pinstripes on the truck before we started restoration, si we're good there. As for the undercarriage, everything underneath is still original, and before we bring it to a national show, it gets waxed. Everything else on the truck is all original and was cleaned up and painted up (except the seat covers) and is the same as it was back in 1963 when it was purchased.

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Not sure I understand...same as when you purchased it in '63? Is the undercarriage "restored" or does it show signs of rust and paint flaking? Is there deterioration under the seat covers? In addition to "tastefully" done the turnsignals should be appropriate to the period, no modern PepBoys marker lights set into the fenders etc. Sounds like a nice truck, I'll look for it at Hershey.

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Oh no, aside from the tailgate, everything that is made of metal (ie sheetmetal, frame, springs, clamps, brackets, etc.) is the same as it was when the truck was purchased (and it was old stuff back in '63). Of course we put in a new wiring harness, seat covers, glass, etc. and we replated the chrome but even the headlinger is still the original headliner. We added a second plymouth taillight, and the front turn signals are 40's vintage lights with clear lenses that are secured to the front bumper brackets with bolts (nothing drilled into any sheetmetal). If it wasn't for having the wires hanging down, we could take a wrench, remove the turn signals, and unplug the lights from the wiring harness. The only problem is that you would have the wire that the lights plug into hanging down.<P>Of course a frame off restoration is a frame off, and it required almost everything that any other frame off restoration would need, but the hardest part of that restoration was trying to straighten the fenders and box because of it being an old farm truck. There was no major rust on that truck. Only when the cab was sandblasted did we find any holes, and the ones that were found (lower back side) you could cover each hole with an eraser off the end of a pencil (about 8 pinholes). <P> Personally I know it's not perfect, but I also know that given a can of wax and a few hours, anyone could pick out every imperfection by simply waxing any vehicle. I haven't seen anything flawless yet, and if I did, I didn't look hard enough. But aside from losing 1st place at a national plymouth meet by 6 points (3 because of the stickers mentioned in a previous post) and winning a junior and a senior on it's first attempt at both, I would be interested to find out if there's something we overlooked. This truck was our second frame off restoration (we did it ourselves), and quite frankly, I'm surprised at how well we've done. There are people out there who have spent thousands of dollars to hire someone to do a restoration that will never be able to do what we did ourselves. We worked hard on that truck and we did our research, but that doesn't mean that we didn't miss something.<BR> Oh and by the way, at that Plymouth meet, there was only one winner each for first, one for second and one for third. It wasn't done like an AACA meet where there was a minimum point requirement where you couldn't be beat by more than 10 points either. By the way, that first place winner that beat us, was Vince Alteri with that beautiful '47? woodie wagon (AACA grand national winner). <BR> I apologize if I ruffled any feathers in this post, but all I'm trying to do is see if there is someone out there who can tell us if we've got things right. The beauty of having a Model 'A' Model 'T' '57 Chevy, '65 Mustang, etc. is that there are a ton of them out there and because of it, you can easily find out if something isn't right. Another advantage is that you can pick up a catalog and almost rebuild one over the phone if you've got the money to spend (there's nothing wrong with that). In our case, we can't do that (neither can the guys driving the Packards). <P> I understand that AACA can't release the information, but if someone saw something out of place and they feel like mentioning it, I'm willing to listen. I'm not trying to get anyone in trouble, or start an argument, but I would be interested to see what we may have missed. <P> As we speak, we have another project already in the shop. We are in the middle of doing a '40 Plymouth woodie wagon, and we want to do that right too. In the meantime, we're going to continue showing the truck up until we get the wagon finished. Once the wagon is done and I've been to a few judging schools, can we do it again like we did with the truck? Time will tell! In the meantime, I want to learn as much as I can.

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