What is this frame?

[Peter Gariepy]

Can anyone help identify this frame?

[1912Staver]

We need to see more details. Definitely early, the step is more typical of horse drawn rather than horseless. The axles look to be later but better photos would be a big help.

Greg in Canada

[Peter Gariepy]

We need to see more details. Definitely early, the step is more typical of horse drawn rather than horseless. The axles look to be later but better photos would be a big help.

Greg in Canada

thats all i have unfortunately. trying to get more.

[wayne sheldon]

Yes, definitely need better pictures. The wheels confuse the issue quite a bit. Are they in any real way a part of this chassis?

It looks as though the front axle may swing from a center point for steering? Is that the way it is? If it does swing from the center, that does not totally rule out horseless carriage, but it nearly does. Horse-drawn carriages almost always steered by swinging the front axle from a center point. This worked for them because the rigging was attached to the horse which in return anchored the axle to follow the horse. Simple steering connected to a swinging axle was tried several times in the earliest horseless carriages. However it was quickly discovered that it was a very bad idea for them because without the horse to hold the axle forward ahead, one wheel would hit a pothole, or even a small rock, causing that wheel to stop and swing the axle for a wild dart to the right or left. It was found very early that the wheels had to steer from kingpins out near the ends of the front axle. (If I recall correctly, even the Duryeas may have made that discovery with their first car attempt in 1893) ( Or am I thinking of Black's first attempt, or both?)

If the steering is on a fixed axle, steering out near the ends? How is the axle made? How is it attached? Many horse-drawn carriages were modified into horseless carriages, some by modifying the horse-drawn axles, some by replacing the axles with something else. Some of these were done back in the early horseless carriage era, many of them were done decades later in an attempt to make a horseless carriage parade vehicle. Generally speaking, such modified carriages done much after the original horseless carriage era are not considered valuable. (There is an argument that such things built back in the '50s and '60s or earlier maybe should be considered antiques in their own right. But they cannot be considered as original horseless carriage era vehicles.)

The steel seat skin looks like one that was used by several carriage manufacturers after 1900, and at least into the 1920s. They have been used on several model T (and other) speedsters, as well as at least a few times on re-bodied horseless carriages. They may have been used on a few early cars, but I have never seen one that was. So that, I won't say that I know. (Again, if I recall correctly, I saw one such seat on a one cylinder Cadillac, but it was definitely not original to the car.)

The real answer as to what this is lies in details that cannot be seen in these photos. Many early horseless carriages were made by copying how horse-drawn carriages were built. For this reason, some of them did use cross-ways front springs like were common on horse-drawn carriages.

So again, better pictures if you can. Then one of us can tell you more for certain.

[Rusty_OToole]

Looks like a hodge podge of a horse drawn carriage chassis, modern wheels, and a seat frame of an early car or possibly a buggy.

[Richard Lichtfel]

Looks like a hodge podge of a horse drawn carriage chassis, modern wheels, and a seat frame of an early car or possibly a buggy.

This is a Doctors buggy frame and axles and auto wheels and seat.