Help - 64 buick front lower control arm bushing replacement

[coOverwatch]

Need some help again before I do something that might cost me more $$

I ordered the super front end kit fro PST and the front lower control bushings look like the rear control bushings.

http://www.p-s-t.com/s.nl/it.A/id.7867/.f?sc=12

also, the original ones again are tack welded which I will have to be cut. Do they drive out from the back of the car to the front of the car?

anyone replace these that can offer any guidance would be appreciated.

the manual just said that to remove the bushing it may be pushed or driven from the frame using a suitable tool. is a BFH a suitable tool?

(no I did not grind off the bushings, car came that way)

ne bushings

Edited May 10, 2015 by coOverwatch (see edit history)

[cobravii]

I replaced the lower control arm bushings on my '64 Electra and it looks like mine ar identical to yours.

I have a ball joint press and in the kit is a collar that fit the outside steel ring of the bushing (but just a little smaller) and I used a BFH and drove it out. I then used the said balljoint press to press in the new bushings.

NOTE: do not tighten your control arm bolts until the car is back on the ground and supporting it's own weight.

[RockitRiviera]

i suggest you cut them out with a sawz-all

 

1)  Burn out the rubber or drill it out.

2) then cut out the bushing with sawzall...send me an email and I'll try to send you pics...this is a nightmare job. 

Edited May 17, 2015 by RockitRiviera (see edit history)

[alini]

I did much like RockitRiviera said, remove the center rubber how ever you want and then I hacksawed the metal outer casing out.  Be careful the metal is thin and cuts easily, dont cut into the frame.  It wont hurt but better toe safe than sorry. 

[RockitRiviera]

 

 

[RockitRiviera]

Please see pics above.  First I drilled out the center shaft of the bushing (by drilling through the rubber many many times).  Then I pretty much hammered the center shaft out.  Then I hammered and chiseled for about a month before a friend recommended a sawz-all.  In a minute I had them both out with the sawz-all..

 

If you lived nearby, I'd drop off my sawz-all for you to use.  So far that is the only use I've had for it.

 

Then I lubed up the new bushings and hammered them in with a home made contraption.

 

I'm so glad that job is done.

[coOverwatch]

Well... good news is the bushings are out.

cut the welds and started hitting it with the BFH. after an hour of nothing moving I started to look closer at what I was working with.

I could see the bushing trying to break loose from the back side. pulled out the PB Blaster and cleaned the front side.. sure enough.. the front side was welded too, just behind the lip. how the hell they got it welded in that tight spot I don't know. Little more time with the cut off wheel and I was able to drive them out and only smashed my hand with the 5lb hammer 4 times.

 

Grabbed the new bushings to see what I was working with and they slide right in..... cause they were a 1/4 inch to small! old ones are 1 3/4 diameter and the new ones are 1 1/2 inch, give or take. I didn't pull the calipers out to see exactly what they were.

 

anyone have dimensions on the bushings???

[alini]

Are you sure you didnt remove the sleeve the bushing slips in.  There is a welded sleeve inside the frame that the bushing slides into and the metal casing of the bushing usually rusts to.  If you can see into the frame, you removed the frame sleeve.

The busing installed from the front, and there is a lip.  Make sure you are removing it from the back to the front as well

Edited May 18, 2015 by alini (see edit history)

[coOverwatch]

Hummmm.... looks like I removed the frame sleeve as well as the bushing all in one shot.

So should I drill out the bushing and cut it before putting the sleeve back in? or slide the sleeve back in and tack weld it then drill and cut?

 

look ma... no sleeve

 

after cutting away some of the bushing I can see the inner case

 

Edited May 18, 2015 by coOverwatch (see edit history)

[RockitRiviera]

Holy crap, you did remove the whole thing!  I have no answers for you now.  But you must be one strong s.o.b.   I took a sledge hammer to mine and I didn't remove the frame's bushing sleeve.  I'm humbled by your machismo.

[coOverwatch]

I took over someone else's project and found a lot of "issues". None of the suspension was torqued and the bushings, or should I say sleeves, were ground down and some of the welds holding them in were cut. I finished cutting them and they came out with a few well placed hits.

 

I usually work on Fords and Chevy's and nothing earlier then 1969 so I am a little out of my comfort zone with this build. I have been working on a 48 Willy's but it is in great condition. only needed a fuel pump and carb rebuild and it was operational. need to replace the fuel tank as it is now sucking up a lot of rust.

 

the plan now is to drill out the bushing and drive the center sleeve out. cut a few relief cuts into outer bushing case and then tack weld the sleeve back in and dig out the remaining bushing. Hope I didn't totally screw the pooch on this.

 

RockitRiviera you in the Colorado area?

[CTX-SLPR]

If you don't mind taking some measurements off of the new and old parts it would be of great help to me.

 

I'd like to know the ID of the inner sleeve, the OD of the whole assembly, the OD of the bushing only, the length of the sleeve, and the length of the inner sleeve of the bushing.

 

Thanks,

[alini]

While you have it out disassemble the bushing from the sleeve. Try not to tweak the shape of the outer sleeve. Make note of which is front and rear so it will place back in the frame as close to original as possible. The sleeve can be re welded into the frame you need to try and center is as best as possible. There should be enough adjustment in the suspension to make up for being off a bit

[coOverwatch]

CTX-SLPR
I will take pics and dimensions of everything while i have it out. :-)

 

Alini
tweaking the shape of the frame sleeve is my primary concern.
I did mark everything as  I was removing them.
I figured if I got everything drilled out and ready to cut the bushing case I would put
the sleeve back in and weld it in place so  I can drive the pieces/parts out without
damaging the shape of the sleeve.
Hopefully with all the pics i took I can get it real close to what it was like before

 

what are the risks if I get the sleeve a little to deep or not deep enough?

[alini]

As long as the sleeve is flush on both ends in the frame and you have it centered in the hole as close as possible there should be no concern for ride quality. There is enough adjustment at the top to make up for caster and camber changes incurred from the repair. Did you do both sides or we talking just one hole? If it's just one. Take some measurement from the other side of where the lip of the hole is and try and match it

[coOverwatch]

Nope.. I was productive on Sunday and got both out.

I should be able to get them back in where they were. left some marks on them before I pulled them out.

[coOverwatch]

CTX-SLPR

 

 

here you go (all in inches)

 

3rd from the left is the old center bushing sleeve

.95 OD

.75 ID

2.86 Length

 

old bushing housing

1.56 OD (taken from the back)

1.59 OD (taken from the front)

1.59 OD .65 up from the face (case has a slight step at the front)

2.13 OD from the front Lip

 

New bushing housing

1.56 OD from the back

1.58 OD from the front

1.58 OD .75 up from the face

2.05 OD from the front lip

2.43 length (no bushing, just the case

2.89 total with bushing

 

frame sleeve

1.81 OD

1.56 ID

2.19 length

.13 thick

looks like it was rolled and welded as there was a seem.

[coOverwatch]

Well getting the bushing out of the sleeve was a no brainer following the method listed above. had them out in 10 minutes

 

dry fit the sleeves back in and things look to line up as they were before. That is as best I can tell from the pics I took before I beat them out.

 

Have to get out the specs on my welder to be sure it can handle the thickness of the sleeve and frame. Don't see why it wouldn't but might as well be sure.

[CTX-SLPR]

CTX-SLPR

 

sleeve.jpg

 

here you go (all in inches)

 

3rd from the left is the old center bushing sleeve

.95 OD

.75 ID

2.86 Length

 

old bushing housing

1.56 OD (taken from the back)

1.59 OD (taken from the front)

1.59 OD .65 up from the face (case has a slight step at the front)

2.13 OD from the front Lip

 

New bushing housing

1.56 OD from the back

1.58 OD from the front

1.58 OD .75 up from the face

2.05 OD from the front lip

2.43 length (no bushing, just the case

2.89 total with bushing

 

frame sleeve

1.81 OD

1.56 ID

2.19 length

.13 thick

looks like it was rolled and welded as there was a seem.

Thanks a bunch!  I'll digest these for suspension upgrade plan I have.

[coOverwatch]

Can you share what you have in mind? I saw a pic of a Riviera with a rack-n-pinion setup but could not find a write up on it.

[coOverwatch]

sleeve's are all back in. welds are not the prettiest but should hold. need to do more practicing before I weld in the new floor. been almost 20 years sense I welded anything. 

 

Ball joints are all in and getting ready to put the front lower arm bushings in. should I lube the sleeve before doing this? if so what lube?

[alini]

The sleeves dont need lube, they dont move, its the bolt that could use some grease when you mount the arm.

[coOverwatch]

didn't think so. read the previous post that he lubed up the bushing. I pressed it in what a ball joint press and all is good. I hope. think I got everything back in and tack welded. little concerned about the weld. have not done it in some time. might call a friend over to double check my work before I put everything back together. That is when the spring pads come in. been waiting almost 3 weeks for some parts.

[CTX-SLPR]

Can you share what you have in mind? I saw a pic of a Riviera with a rack-n-pinion setup but could not find a write up on it.

Convert the rubber bushings over to sealed spherical bearings like a Johnnie Joint to free up the front suspension.  Plan is to put a set in the lower arms and in the strut rod positions.  With sleeves in place it will be easier to mount them vs. a hollow frame that I'd either have to sleeve or otherwise build a housing for.  Steering box is staying as is the frame side of the suspension.  Eventually I'm hopefully going to fab spindles and redesign the suspension for a much more modern geometry.  That will require high positive offset wheels but will drive much better.

[coOverwatch]

Back from an extended business trip. have a new development starting in Mexico.

Anyway parts are in so it is time to put the front end back together.

 

When I removed the front springs it appears that there was a spacer located on the lower A Arm. At least that is my take as I can not see anything in the manual about this being part of the factory setup.(see pics below)

 

Also, the manual calls for a castle nut on the lower arm bold. Guess what. mine are not setup that way. Just a regular bold, lock washer and 1 1/8 nut. is this after marked? if so anyone have a part number that I can replace this? figure I would put it back together the way it should be.

 

I also went to a local car show this weekend out of 100 some odd cars there was NO Riviera's. only one Skylark that was real rough. disappointing.

 

 

 

 

[coOverwatch]

Front springs are in.. finally. had to get some weight back on the front end to help compress the springs. 

If anyone see's anything out of place please let me know. when I took everything apart they were half way in. everything was loose so I don't know if something is out of place.

don't think so.. but now is the time to fix it. have to blast the break parts to finish getting things installed. will do that in the morning.

 

Thanks Alini for the pics this morning.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[alini]

Looks good, glad I could help.  Dont forget to cotter pin those ball joints

[coOverwatch]

Good eye. Yes I still need to install the cotter pin and put in the grease fittings. I had to stop working as I promised my girls I would take them to a movie tonight. Been working late for the last two weeks. needed some down time.

[Guest KS-Competition]

Anybody here knows where to get new dustseals/rubbersleeves for the balljoints in the frontend for -65 Rivi. 

I have seen alot of companies selling complete balljoints but non that sells only the rubber. Is it possible to get?

Maybe someone who knows if the part nr matches  a Chevy part nr for example.

 

I also need the rubberseals for the upper controlarm bushings.

 

Thx

 

Krister 

Edited October 8, 2015 by KS-Competition (see edit history)

[alini]

I have yet to find a company.  My upper control arm rubbers dry rotted out of the box and are all cracked.  Ive heard others having the same issues

[RivNut]

Anybody here knows where to get new dustseals/rubbersleeves for the balljoints in the frontend for -65 Rivi. 

 

Thx

 

Krister 

I downloaded the online catalog from Energy Suspension and found a listing for 1963 - 1965 Riviera ball joint dust boots.  Easy peasy.

Edited October 8, 2015 by RivNut (see edit history)

[CTX-SLPR]

I downloaded the online catalog from Energy Suspension and found a listing for 1963 - 1965 Riviera ball joint dust boots.  Easy peasy.

 

I have a set of those... not too impressed since they aren't held to the ball joint and I thought that the grease would leak out as they go through the suspension flex.  Probably alright for dry and low use situations though.

[Guest KS-Competition]

I downloaded the online catalog from Energy Suspension and found a listing for 1963 - 1965 Riviera ball joint dust boots.  Easy peasy.

Thanks for that info. Must check that out. 

[CTX-SLPR]

Bringing this back up since I've finally been able to do some work on this.

 

The ID of the frame sleeve is 1 9/16in which is perfect for a COM14 bearing (say from FK) BUT since the frame sleeve is rolled and welded 1/8in sheetmetal, I doubt it's a good idea to just push a bearing in there.  Besides the only way to retain it would be to weld in rings on either side to keep it from sliding but would render it non-serviceable.  It would also force you to up size the bolt from a 3/4in to a 7/8in bolt and match the holes in the control arm.

 

The better idea (in my opinion) is to knock the whole bearing assembly and frame sleeve out of the frame to gain the OD and go with a smaller COM12 (3/4in bore) bearing and have a set of custom retainers machined up out of tube stock and retained with a shoulder and snap ring.  Hopefully a friend's suggestion for a local machine shop pans out and I can talk to him about machining up a sleeve for the frame to mount the spherical bearing.  If I go down this road, and I'm planning on doing that, I'd add some lip seals in the sleeve bore to keep the worst of the stuff off of the bearings.  They are Teflon lined so that should keep them spinning freely and really the need is to keep stuff out of them more than grease in.

 

On a related note.  Been working with Ridetech (the AirRide guys) about making their spherical bearing setup that's available for other strut rod (or brake reaction rod) cars available for us.  First pass says that their off the shelf units won't work since it's too large to fit through the existing frame hole (hole: 1.25in, COM12 bearing: 1.375in).  However our rods are the next step down size wise so I've proposed downsizing the bearing to a COM10 which should fit it through the hole.  We'll see where that goes.  A parallel plan is something the guys over on www.pro-touring.com have used on Mustangs and I've seen documentation that the SCCA Trans-Am Mustangs used; ball joints for the bushing end.  While pretty simple, this definitely requires enlarging the hole in the frame.  The smaller K772 screw in ball joints have an OD of 1.830in while the frame opening is only 1.25in.  The good news is that you can get a hybrid ball joint from Howe that has roughly 3x the pull out strength and uses a big 5/8in thread while still keeping the smaller housing that would go through the frame hole.

 

IF I start buying parts I'll post up drawings of what I'm doing on a new thread but since people asked me here why I wanted the dimensions, I thought I'd close the loop.

[coOverwatch]

Thanks for the update CTX. I bought a parts car few months back and have a spare frame. was going to look into contacting some of the suspension shops in town to see if we could figure out a new front end setup. However work has been crazy busy and the weather a little cold

 

keep us posted on your progress

[CTX-SLPR]

CO,

 

Can you take measurements of the end of the strut rod for me?  I pulled the outer bushing off but have been slightly reluctant to pull it off of the control arm.  If your's is free I'd like to get the dimensions of the end to see if there is a bearing that will work out of the box.  I just noticed the rod is stepped today and taking a caliper to it makes it look like it's a non-standard side of 0.680in.

 

Thanks,

[coOverwatch]

mine are back in. I do have a parts care that I can pull off and measure for you. show a pic of what you are looking for.

might be a day or two till I can get to it. snowing today. :-(

[CTX-SLPR]

Hehe... I don't miss that part of the Front Range.  Wish I knew you before I PCS'd out of Cheyenne Mt. AFS back in 2014.  I think I can pull mine apart if yours isn't or you weren't planning to already.

[coOverwatch]

was not planning to pull them out but can if needed.. let me know.

[CTX-SLPR]

I pulled mine out over the weekend and am working up a SolidWorks model of it to get to Ridetech but I'm still working in my own parrallel fashion on both the ball joint and the spherical bearing idea.  New thread when I get the models up.