Senior Car?

[1937hd45]

If the two engines look the same from the outside who is going to know, besides the owner? This is not NASCAR, we don't put a scope down the bore. No body checks rear axle ratios either.

[Guest]

If someone who owns a Grand National senior car changes the engine from it's original size, is it still a Senior car? The engine in appearance looks like it is original but it is a larger displacement. All of the parts used are original production parts. At local AACA shows a senior car automatically gets a senior trophy. What if it has been changed? Is it still a senior car or can it have it's standing revoked?<BR>Thanks for your answers.

[Guest]

It is a change from a 383 to a 440 and the numbers are stamped on a visable pad on top of the block. A 440 did not come in this particular year and model of this car. Is it still a Senior car? I am guessing yes.

[1937hd45]

If EVERYTHING looks the same on the outside of the two engines except the numbers I don't see it as a big deal. No different than a 1930 Ford with a 1931 Ford block, we don't check engine numbers in AACA. If someone wants to correct me, please do so.

[Guest]

This gets interesting. If you take a car that was judged to be authentic and given an award, and then make it non authentic by putting in an engine that was NOT available in THAT year for THAT car, have you not possibly created an entirely different vehicle than the one that was judged previously and received an award. I'm just wondering here, and NOT making any judgment.<P>I really think there are two ways to go with this. This DF is NOT the place to get the information to hang your hat on, because this is all opinion and bears no weight beyond that. SO-----<P>#1 You can continue to show it as modified and probably, as 1937 says, nobody will notice. If that little deception doesn't bother you, then go with it.<P>#2 If however making this change does raise your personal concerns, then state your case to the VP-Class Judging and ask for a ruling from the Judging Committee.<P>For what it is worth, and I am no longer on the judging committee, I would cast my vote that the car with an engine not available for that car is no longer the same vehicle, and is admittedly not authentic, therefore the vehicle should revert to junior status.<BR>If the engine change were to one that WAS available for that car, then I would vote that it is the same vehicle and all awards should remain as is. <P>This is just my opinion of course. You must make your own decision. But I say again, we here on the DF can only offer opinions, NOT rulings that carry any weight.<P>The above is written in the spirit of helpfulness. Please do not read anything else into it. ~ hvs

[ronbarn]

One point of clarification from 1937 response. AACA does not check serial numbers and since we permit body color that was offered for that model that year, we do not check paint codes on the data plate.<P>However, if there any differences that indicate an incorrect engine, and this would include casting stamps or numbers that are visible, there would be a maximum deduction for any parts that are specifically related to that engine as opposed to the original engine, i.e. block, heads, and possibly some others such as carb, starter, generator (I do not know if these are the same.) Of course, it depends on if the judges know the difference. This has happened frequently in the Ford V-8 classes where certain expert judges do know the difference.<P>If the car is a Senior, i.e. it has won the Junior but not a Senior Award, this would probably prevent it from winning Senior. If the car is a Preservation, i.e. it has won the Senior Award, the deduction would possibly win a Preservation since all it has to do is score 350.<P>Of course, if it is a Senior, is altered but never shown again, AACA would not know and it would remain on the roles as a Senior. If it is sold represented as a Senior, well, that's up to the old owner's conscience and the buyer's knowledge or concerns.<P>I do not believe you will get a waiver from the Judging Committee for this change. But, like hvs, I am no longer on the Judging Committee.

[Bill Stoneberg]

Mike,<BR>Why do you want to change the engine and still worry about judging ? I am assuming that you want more power. <P>I have no experience with Dodges but I have to wonder if you will ruin the value of the car by making this switch.<P>Does the "numbers matching" game get played in your marque judging shows ? Will switching to a non-authentic engine end up costing you in the end ? <P>These are some of the other items you should think about before making this switch. <P>I played with Corvettes 1 time and learned my lesson the hard way.

[1937hd45]

I'm guessing that Mike will keep the original correct engine for future use and not scrap it. This thread is about enjoying your restoration, I think. I've often wondered if others have installed some options they wanted after they win a Senior Award? They've won the awards and can win Preservations forever since the total deductions won't matter for a few little things.

[Guest]

Going back to the beginning, the term "Grand National Senior" car was mentioned. Now if this car won a GN Senior previously, such a change would, if recognized, effectively keep the car from winning a REPEAT GN SENIOR. Remember, there is no limit to how many times you can win the GN Senior award, so long as you score 390 points or higher.<P>Now whoever has this car has taken it all the way to the GN level, so I think it reasonable to assume that the owner has more than a passing interest in AACA judging.<P>Yes, it will no doubt always earn a preservation award, but if sold after it is modified, the new buyer, unless the seller tells him otherwise, has every right to believe he is buying an authentic vehicle because it is an AACA Grand National award winner.<P>If the current owner should sell the car he should tell the buyer that the engine was changed to a non authentic engine AFTER the GN award was received. Then both parties will know all of the facts.<P>Just my opinion. ~ hvs

[Guest]

Thanks for all of the responses. Each of them I view as being very helpful and in a good spirit of answering my concerns. The original numbers matching engine has always had a problem in the #8 cylinder. The rings never sealed and therefore it smoked out of that bank. After showing it as high as I could go in AACA and a first place at the mopar nationals I have pulled the engine. <BR>Now I have put the original number matching engine up and I am installing a built 440. I am not interested in trying to fool anyone since anyone with any mopar experience knows the difference between the two. Now the engine will be original in appearance but you could not get a 440 in a 69 road runner convertible. If I sell the car I can in a week or two switch back to the original engine, but I plan to keep it and have some fun by driving it. <P>My concern is if I take it to our club's local AACA show do I need to not display my medalions. Also if I do, I want to know if it's status would be revoked. I really am not interested in winning any more trophies or getting any preservation awards. I just want to know what is proper. Display the medalions or not, since it is no longer a true representation of the exact original car that earned these awards.<P>As stated I know these are just opinions and I do not plan on entering it into any judged AACA event since I know it is not original and as we all know, that is what is important. I just want to drive and enjoy the work of 7 years. Thanks for your help.

[1937hd45]

Mike, If you want my opinion, display the plaques. When I see a great restoration (doesn't matter what era) that is the first thing I look for. Sort of proves that it is in fact a great restoration. I'm a Ford guy and wouldn't know about Mopar #, so don't worry about it. You do have the option of keeping the hood closed. Enjoy the car now!

[Guest]

Mike ~ Your attitude is fair, reasonable and positive. You are upfront about the whole thing. If you do not care about further judging, what difference will it make to anyone. I still say if you sell the car, put the correct engine back or advise the buyer of the change, something I know you will do.<P>As 1937 said, display it with the honors attached and I say keep the hood up if you want. Most won't know the difference and if someone does and says something, the best response is something like, "I know it, but that is what I want."<P>As for AACA revoking any awards already won, it ain't gonna happen. I know of only one instance where awards were called back, and that was in the case of a complete vehicle deemed never to have actually been built by the manufacturer. Parts yes, car no. <P>hvs

[Ron Green]

Just for my knowledge, say Mike decides to show the car a few years down the road in a national AACA meet would he not have to (being honest of course) change the engine numbers on the AACA entrant registration paperwork prior to submitting everything? Of course these registration papers are already filled out and you would have to make a special effort to change things. I am not sure about mopars but many GM vehicles engine numbers tie into the vin numbers.<P>Mike, Don't get the impression that I am picking on you. You have a nice car. I did the same thing with my 67 GTO with a build up engine however the factory 400 is in the shed resting with a spun bearing.<P>When I say the registration is already filled out I mean they also send a paper that has the information on that you copy over to the entrant paperwork<p>[ 04-11-2002: Message edited by: Ron Green ]

[1937hd45]

Mike, Correct me if I've got this wrong, both engines are the same in all OUTWARD respects, except for a number stanped on the block, and you have the original engine. If anyone (judge) wanted to get picky then only the BLOCK is wrong. I wouldn't mess with the numbers on the AACA forms, you still have the right engine with the registration numbers. No go enjoy driving the car!

[Guest]

Bob, I may be showing my Mopar ignorance, but are you saying ONLY the block is different on these two engines? Same heads on both engines even with that much increase in displacement [57 cu in]. Same carb?<P>And knowingly putting or leaving an incorrect number on the registration card is probably not the most honest way of registering for an AACA Meet. But then who cares about things like that in today's world? It's what "I" want that is important. <P>Mike, I am NOT challanging you on this. This post is directed at 1937hd45. ~ hvs

[1937hd45]

Howard, I'm basing everything on what was said on this post. I think it was Mike that said both engines were identical, except for the block, that in my view is the only incorrect item in the swap. My view may be a bit tainted since I'm into the race car classes. You must have ownership of the original race car chassis(frame)for class 24 AB&C, but you can fabricate a new frame if the original is beyond salvage. Mike has the original engine, it is just not in the car now. I don't have any Mopar knowledge, and would not be comfortable judging the class. I do have a blown 392 Hemi in a 1952 MG.....but that is another story.

[Guest]

Thanks guys for all the responses. Yes it is true that all parts, heads, valve covers, oil pan, timing chain cover, exhaust manifolds, carb are the same on both the 383 and the 440. That is one of the reasons why the 383 was so fast, it had 440 parts. Even the cam will interchange. So I guess what I will do is display the medalions and see who has an eye to know the difference.<P>I love AACA and everything it stands for. I am also a real fan of everything original on cars even down to date codes, but in this case I guess I am just disgusted with the 383. I just wanted to make sure I understood all the ramifications of the changes I am going to make. Which really are not that much to the average guy. I am sure though that I will not enter it in a Judged meet, I will just display it and enjoy the day.<P>Thanks to everyone who has responded. We needed a new topic we could all sink our teeth into.

[Guest]

Mike ~ If everything but the block is the same, I withdraw all former judgements. What you have done is little different than the aluminum, domed, Ford truck pistons in my 1913 Cadillac. It's just that you can see your modification and you can't see mine. But in both cases you sure can tell the difference. <P>Enjoy it as it is, and call it what it was. After all, what determines the engine #, the block or the complete engine? On second thought I guess it is where the # is stamped, isn't it. Oh, what the heck<P>I think this has been reduced to a non issue. Thanks for all of your patience while I, and maybe some others, stumbled through this. ~ hvs<p>[ 04-12-2002: Message edited by: hvs ]

[Guest Stllrng.]

I don't know anything about judging, but for the record a 383 and a 440 are not the same. The heads and so on will interchange, but the 383 is a "B" block and a 440 is a "RB" block. The deck height is taller and as a result the intake manifold is different as it is wider on the 440. To a mopar expert they do look different. Not that I'm a mopar expert. Although I did smash up a 1969 Road runner along time ago.

[Guest]

Mike,<P>If, as you say, you love everything about the AACA, then you cannot display it for Judging without identifying it as non-original. The intent of the AACA is to preserve the vehicle in the form it came from the factory. Unfortunately, your car does not do that. If you do not like the current engine, sell the car and look for one with a drive package you do like. Rebuild that car and show it at the AACA.<P>I have a 71 MGB and do not like the engine (2 liter)... should I pull it and put a 3.4 GM engine inside and the expect to show it? Of course not! Instead, I'll buy myself a Camero!<P>I do understand your problem.<P>Best of luck

[Guest]

Stllrng, you are correct on the B and RB engines. If you look at all the threads I have always said that the block is different and eventhough the intake is wider it still looks the same. But, I can spot a 440 from across the parking lot compared to a 383.<P>BartTS - if you also read all of the thread you will see I have never said I wanted to have it judged. After all, it has the highest award it can get from AACA and the Mopar Nationals. The only thing I could do is get another Grand National preservation award. It is not a matter of whether or not I like the combination. The last thing I will do is sell this one and build another. After all I can make this car numbers matching and show it at any level in less than two weeks. But thanks for the imput.

[rodlars]

Mike<P>I cast my vote for showing the vehicle with the medallions. You are not trying to misrepresent the car at all and if anyone did point out the 440 block, I'm sure you are going to come clean immediately. I don't see anything wrong with telling people the car is now retired from competitive showing and it was indeed 100% correct when it won the awards. After all, its not like you dropped a Hemi in it. 440 to 383 is a relatively subtle change. I have to admire you for having the guts to go out and enjoy the car yourself. I couldn't bring myself to put a bunch of miles on my Swinger and I wasn't even the guy who restored it. Btw, I am now the proud owner of a very street-ready 71 Cuda 340. It's a very clean and stock appearing vehicle from the outside but I have also made it a little more fun under the hood.

[Guest]

Just an up date on what I did with my car. I showed at at our local show. I displayed my medalians and I printed up an information sheet with everything that was modified on the car since it's Grand National award and placed it on the dash. I then sat back and observed people's reactions. Most really just walked by and admired the car. Then two guys walked up and started going over the car very carefully. Then the one guy pointed to the engine and whispered something to the other one. They looked again and had a discussion. Then he walked around the car and saw the sheet. He spoke loud enough for the first time so I could hear what was said. " Oh, look at this. This explains that 78 440 block. See he even put the 440 emblems on the car."

I am satisfied that I have done the correct thing with the car and I appreciate everyone who helped my come to this conclusion. Thanks

Signed: "Happy lead footed restorer"