Is originality (vs. restored) valued by judges?

[Guest]

I am going to become a member soon and want to attend 2002 Hershey. If I have an unaltererd original car 27,000 miles (70 years old) paint is very good but has very, very thin cracks.<BR>Is that car going to do better than a fully restored car? I feel true originality has value.

[randjflo60]

3 Window,<P>Welcome to AACA.<P>You might want to consider entering your car in the HPOF class. This class is for unrestored original cars like yours. They go through a certification process to ensure their originality. This class is a great place to display these cars because you can see the cars exactly as they were built.<P>Good luck.

[Guest]

Hey Ron,<BR> The HPOF class would be a good place<BR>for "All" judges to spend more time.<BR>They could learn much more about cars<BR>there, than they will ever learn in an AACA<BR>judging school.

[Guest]

Thanks for the Lecture novaman. I was<BR>wondering, How many Grand National winners<BR>have you built & how many National Seminars<BR>have you presented. BEEN there DONE that.

[randjflo60]

My daddy can beat up your daddy!!<P><BR>GROW UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[novaman]

Just was looking at this thread again. I made a typing error in my last post. I had typed "the HPOF class can be missing" I meant miss leading. <P>redt, since you have such a problem with AACA judges I suppose you would like everyone that shows up the first time with their car to get a Jr. Second time a Sr. And the third time, preservation. As of yet, I haven't really seen any help from your direction in fixing a judging program, which from reading your posts needs big time help. If your going to be so vocal on this issue, stop degrading everyone and help come up with a viable solution.<BR> <BR>And by the way, you can cut out the degrading emails. You can't get under my skin with them because I don't take things from over the Internet/email personally. And they simply verify which end of a mule is sending the stuff.<p>[ 10-20-2001: Message edited by: novaman ]

[Guest]

Gee! I thought it was just me he didn't like.<P>I guess everybody who takes an opposing view is in for a bevy of insulting e-mails from the great, all knowing, 50's car expert, Mr. Sherrel Thomas of Boaz, Alabama. Some people will do anything for a little attention.<P>OK, now you've got it.

[Guest]

Red ~ That is your opinion which may or may not be valid. <P>There are a lot of good, dedicated, hard working AACA judges out there giving up their Saturdays to judge at AACA Meets. Frankly, I am sick of your bitching, carping and general degrading of of the judges in AACA. Most of them do a better job than you ever did when you judged and they are a hell of a lot more pleasant too. You seem to delight in trying to stir up trouble.<P>Somehow I do not think I am the only one out here with that opinion.<P>hvs

[novaman]

3window, I agree. It sounds like you have a great car for HPOF class. <P>redt, the HPOF class can be missing. There can be stuff that isn't right with the car and still be in the class. Unless there is some documentation with the car for the public (or judges as you're complaining about), how are they to know for certain if it is right? If I saw for instance, a Model T with a Model A component on it and it is mired in 2" of crud, I'd probably say it was right. I'm not a Model T or A person and that is why sign up staying away from those classes. I have a car that people tell me about the original paint being "dead" on it. The original paint is fine. It is the second coat when the top half of the car was repainted that is "dead". I was at one AACA show where I heard someone telling a group that were looking at two, same make, model, and year cars that this one has the right engine (the Sr. car) and the other (Jr. car) had the wrong engine. That was an OOPS. The Sr. car got its awards and the owner swap the engine for another that wasn't available for another 4 or 5 years later. You can't rely on just what you see in the cars as being right.

[novaman]

Seems redt has forgotten one of the purposes of AACA. As found in the Introduction "The aim of the AACA is the perpetuation of the pioneer days of automobiling by furthering the interest in and preserving of antique automobiles, and the promotion of sportsmanship and of good fellowship among all AACA members." His negitive attiude is enough to drive people away which isn't helping to further interest and doen't show good sportsmanship.<P>redt, you stated in an email to me that you "Restored 8 cars to senior (do my own work) 3 Grand National First cars". Is the problem with the judging system because of your 62.5% failure rate of obtaining Grand National First prizes?<p>[ 10-21-2001: Message edited by: novaman ]

[Guest]

There was no Grand National when I did the first 5. I've shown 3 in GN & won with 3, looks as tho that is 100%

[Guest]

damn i didnt know ol red did them number things too i thunk he just fixed up them ol shiners cars ya know them 50 fords an stuff like thet

[Guest]

Now let me see if I got this straight. redt said he has restored [with his own two hands] 8 cars that have won a Senior award.<BR>He says 5 of them won the Senior before there was a Grand National and 3 won in 1979 or after.<P>He has shown the 3 post '78 Senior winners at a Grand National and won the GN First.<BR>That means he has only exhibited 37.5% of his Senior winners at a GN while the remaining 62.5% have never competed at a GN.<P>Now redt, why is that? ~ hvs

[Peter J.Heizmann]

3Window. <P>The deviation from your original questions is unfortunate. <P>Please continue with your intentions to join. <P>The A.A.C.A. has 63,000 members worldwide. Posts you read on the forum are a small percentage. You will find negative comments from time-to-time on any formum. This "RedT" guy has been a thorn to us for quite a while. No one has really ascertained where he is coming from.<P>Regards, Peter J. <p>[ 10-21-2001: Message edited by: Peter J Heizmann ]

[Guest]

Well you guys really like to "have at it". I'll join and see what I can learn, hopefully help others and help the organization in whatever capacity is required. Maybe I'll become a judge!

[Guest]

A great idea of becoming a judge It will be a lot of fun. I show and Judge sometimes. Other I will go to just judge. I enjoy the Hobbie and a lot of very nice folks form all walks of life<P>Buddy

[Peter J.Heizmann]

3windows, welcome aboard.<P>Regards, Peter J.

[Guest]

3windows-<BR> <BR>A. An unaltered, unrestored original car is, in my estimation, much more interesting and 'talk-producing' than a perfectly resored car. I've got each, both pre-war. The restored car is gorgeous; the unrestored is a time capsule.<BR>B. Take a walk through the 'unrestored' ranks at the next car show you attend. You'll be surprised and even baffled how much rebuilding, repainting and reupholstering is visited upon 'unrestored' cars. If your car is truly original, my experience is you'll probably not take home a trophy. <BR>C. Trophy hunting is fun for certain types of individuals. If your goal is to get trophies, you'll probably need to professionally restore your car. This is another way of saying that if your car is truly original, you'll probably be out pointed by others. <BR>D. If your car is truly original, you may have more fun, and more interesting conversations, by just driving and (non-judged) showing it. <BR>The foregoing is one mans' opinion. Your experience may vary. Good question, though.

[Guest]

Well said, Bill

[3Window]

I have never shown a car before. I think trophies are fine, but I would show the car just so it could be viewed by people who appreciate automobiles. I'm 38 years old and trying to get my car collection growing. <BR>Life to me is about learning and meeting people from all walks of life, with autos thrown in for the icing on top. <BR>Thanks for the replies. (Sending in my membership now.)

[Guest imported_luv2box]

If you ever want to sell that 70 year old original, contact me. There are a lot of us that value originality over the better than new restored car. paul@pacinfo.com

[66 Mystery Chevelle]

Is that car going to do better than a fully restored car?

NO and that's a fact, plain and simple.

If you put two of the same car side by side., one fully restored and one unrestored/survivor...the unrestored can't compete with the fully restored car, that is why most shows, have unrestored classes or survivor classes.

And as far as the interesting converstaions go, both will have more than their share of that...TRUST ME...I value the survivors, they allow guys like me to make my cars CORRECT. Many have to also remember and start promoting...that AACA is not all about Model A's and Model T's and all the cars and readings that are in that AACA magazine...times they are a changin <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

See ya in Hershey!

[Guest J446]

I agree that as Bob sang "The times they are a changing" but IMHO they are moving to original,non restored, certainly not over restored, cars. Even Pebble is moving in this direction. This year 145 of the entrants participated in the Pebble tour and many of the cars that took home trophies were original with lots of patina.

In terms of value, the most valuable cars are defineately those in original condition bearing scars of their history.

The only thing that matters is to make yourself happy but IMHO no one should ever restore out history esp. if it's an important part of that car's past.

[66 Mystery Chevelle]

What do you base that conclusion on? that original cars are more valuable than restored cars?? You won't see any paint chipped or unrestored/original muscle car getting the dollar amounts that the restored ones are, and that's a fact...just attend any major auction or show or check ebay., fully restored cars are through the roof in value! Shows...most of the classes that have survivors or unrestored classes...you're lucky if you get two cars there...hardly going in that direction IMHO., but of cousre you may be looking at this from the perspective of someone older or cars that are pre 1960, or just based on something else?? Looked to me like HERSHEY had more fully restored cars than original.

and what is over-restored? I am curious?

[ex98thdrill]

I have been told that an example of over an restored car would be if you took the time to paint the nuts bolts and washers. The theory is, they didn't leave the factory with painted fasteners, but if those fasteners are unpainted and show rust, then you'll lose points for them.

[Guest J446]

A Cobra Daytona Coupe in original condition recently sold for $4,500,000.

If it had been restored it would have sold for less.

A Ferrari 250 GTO in original unrestored condition recently sold for $9,000,000.

It's originally was key to that price.

The Corvette which recently sold for over $600,000 was completely original.

That price by far is way more than any price ever paid for a restored Corvette

[Guest J446]

Using Powder Paint, lining up screw heads, polishing parts that were not originally polished are futher examples of over restoration.

36 years ago my Ford MK-IV was build by Ford, prepared by Carrol Shelby air frieghted to Paris and transposted to LeMans. After a brief qualifing period, the windshield cracked and was replaced, holes were drilled into it to mount mirrors after the tech inspectors insisted, Red Fire identification dots were painted on, as was the # 2. The next day it ran for 24 hours covering 3000+ miles. It finished 4th overall. In those 24 hours it aquired dents, nicks and scratches. It was no longer as it was when it left the factory.

36 years later many of those dents, nicks, and scratches, including the dent in the sill made when Bruce McLaren threw down his helmet and set off after the tail which had blown off on the Mulsanne at 223MPH are still there.

My car has been maintained over those years and driven another 20,000 miles on the highway and at various vintage races. If those dents, scratches, and dings had been restored out to return my car to the way it was when it left the factory it would be worth FAR less than it is still bearing the scars of it's race at LeMans.

Everyone is different and enjoys different things. Many love perfectly restored cars. I for one would never restore out history. IMHO any judge who would award points to someone who has is missing a very important point.

[1937hd45]

The original question is flawed. I'm an AACA judge, and I do place a higher VALUE on well preserved original vehicles vs. over restored vehicles. Anything can be restored if you throgh enough time an money at it. If I'm at an AACA National Meet a restored car will win out over the original. At an AACA National we are looking for a vehicle as it left the factory, as new, with about zero miles. Over restored is just that, ground off forging seams, ground and polishd engine blocks, aligned slotted screws on massproduced low dollar cars.

[rodlars]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What do you base that conclusion on? that original cars are more valuable than restored cars?? You won't see any paint chipped or unrestored/original muscle car getting the dollar amounts that the restored ones are, and that's a fact...just attend any major auction or show or check ebay., fully restored cars are through the roof in value! Shows...most of the classes that have survivors or unrestored classes...you're lucky if you get two cars there...hardly going in that direction IMHO., but of cousre you may be looking at this from the perspective of someone older or cars that are pre 1960, or just based on something else?? Looked to me like HERSHEY had more fully restored cars than original.

and what is over-restored? I am curious?

</div></div>

Just this past summer, in Moparland, an extremely well preserved 71 Demon 340 sold for over $30K. A well restored one would probably top out at around 20. Well preserved, low mileage survivors are a rare breed and command premium prices. This holds true for antiques to muscle cars. Due to their rarity and desireability, these cars usualyy change hands via word of mouth and such and rarely show up on ebay. The auction houses are a good benchmark, but not the only medium available for moving a car. I will admit that for the trophy hounds, restored is the only way to go.

over restored:

Cars that feature buffed and polished paint jobs, glossy painted undercarriages, absence of factory undercoating, glossy engine compartments, metal-finished engine blocks, etc... To sum up, a car that has been reassambled with much, much more care and dedication than what was originally afforded on the assembly line. There was a dark red 64 Eldorado at Hershey this year that was a picture-perfect example. There is actually a painter up in Minnesota who is valued by the Mopar guys because of his ability to mimic factory orange peel and paint runs.

For what it's worth, 66, I would take your car over a true "survivor" myself but wouldn't be shocked if said survivor was able to command an equal or higher price. My definition of survivor would be something that is well enough preserved to score a 2nd or 3rd AACA Junior.

Rod

[6219_Rules]

So correct me if I am wrong, but I am getting the distinct impression that going with the ground up, minute detailing as described, is a particular 'look' for the show circuit. Survivors are appreciated more because of their originality, though the sale/cost indicator is a poor one at best, because that is how they came off of the line. If I were to return my car to its original paint, original interior without embellishment, to the standard set in 1947 at Cadillac and as it landed at the dealership, that would make it more desirable than if I detailed it to a fair thee well. Interesting. This would mean not only getting the data right on how it looked but being able to duplicate the work quality at that time.

I feel better about my car. Given the above, I can then assume that a less than stellar paint job would be good if the right color and paint mixture.

It seems the difference between modelers that build a model to be the brightest example in contrast to those that prepare it to look like the real thing on the street, dust, dings and all.

Am I on the right track here?

[Guest]

Randall, I think part of this discussion boils down to whether you want to show a car in competition or not. Re: Your reference to a less than steller paint job. If the factory delivered cars with a less than stellar paint job, then it would lose no points. If the factory work was of a higher caliber, then it would lose points.

This is always going to be a never ending arguement between people with different ideas of what a car should be and what is most desirable. It is a very personal thing and none of us should fault the other guy for what he likes.

As usual, just my opinion. ~ hvs

[6219_Rules]

Hmmm I think I can see that. What it really boils down is that groups within the hobby congregate loosely around what they consider to be important aspects of the hobby. For some it is the enjoyment of owning a Classic. For others showing a brilliantly restored car. And for others yet, having a car that is a classic and a survivor; I am sure there are more categories than that..I am just making suggestions. Well, at some point I want to have my car as original as possible, which is a change in direction from 3 years ago when I got the car. Then I just wanted an old car in good shape to drive.