Running a little rough

[powerage]

Hey guys

Getting to know my new 63 Riv I picked up a month ago. Has been in the wrong hands for a while, so to speak... Was running horribly when I got it, would start but hard to keep running, coughing and smoking with a good dump of soot coming out on start up. Shifting into gear came with a decent clunk. Changed plugs (they were blackened), fuel & air filters, topped fluids (they looked clean, just low), put in a good amount of new fuel in the tank, charged battery. Removed and cleaned PCV valve. Fixed an exhaust leak, but will probably replace eventually.

Runs much better. Starts very easily, even cold, auto choke good, keeps running no problem. However it does sound a bit ticky and sort of chuff chuff chuff if that makes sense. Standing in front of engine hood up, the engine sounds pretty healthy and quiet, more like the tick and chuff is coming out the exhaust, more so passengers side. Perhaps more leaks somewhere.

It idles a little fluttery, and on take off it feels quite shuddery, then smoothes out as you speed up. It run's pretty strong, plenty of power, no cooling issues although it does smell a little hot (again, if that makes sense). Theres some ticking that sounds about midway under the floor passenger side, but it could be more exhaust issues. No smoking or soot issues, a little fumey on start up. Seems to shift into gear with less of a clunk too.

Was thinking of running some Rislone engine treatment with an oil change this weekend and giving it a good run, feels like it needs to really blow out the cobwebs ha ha.. Any suggestions would be appreciated guys...

Also it's running a set of 70s Cadillac wires with 235/70/15s on them which rub on full lock. I wanna ditch them anyway, but will these tires work on the stock rims? They are brand new so if they don't rub I'd stick with them.

Cheers!

[RivNut]

The oil may have been changed lately and look good but it sounds as if there's built up crud in the engine, probably in the lifters. Change the oil, put in some kind of cleaner - Marvel Mystery oil, Seafoam, (my dad used a quart of transmission fluid with four quarts of oil before all this fancy stuff was available,) and do this frequently until all the crud has been removed. Don't know that you need to blow the cobs out of it, might do more harm than good.

Yes, the 235/70R15's can be run on your stock rims. But they'll rub on full lock as well. Most 70 series radial will rub on full lock. My '63 has 225/70's on it and they rub. But only on full lock and hopefully that will never be needed anywhere but back out of the driveway. If you have to go there at 70 mph you're going to have bigger problems than tire rub.

Ed

[1965rivgs]

Hey guys

Getting to know my new 63 Riv I picked up a month ago. Has been in the wrong hands for a while, so to speak... Was running horribly when I got it, would start but hard to keep running, coughing and smoking with a good dump of soot coming out on start up. Shifting into gear came with a decent clunk. Changed plugs (they were blackened), fuel & air filters, topped fluids (they looked clean, just low), put in a good amount of new fuel in the tank, charged battery. Removed and cleaned PCV valve. Fixed an exhaust leak, but will probably replace eventually.

Runs much better. Starts very easily, even cold, auto choke good, keeps running no problem. However it does sound a bit ticky and sort of chuff chuff chuff if that makes sense. Standing in front of engine hood up, the engine sounds pretty healthy and quiet, more like the tick and chuff is coming out the exhaust, more so passengers side. Perhaps more leaks somewhere.

It idles a little fluttery, and on take off it feels quite shuddery, then smoothes out as you speed up. It run's pretty strong, plenty of power, no cooling issues although it does smell a little hot (again, if that makes sense). Theres some ticking that sounds about midway under the floor passenger side, but it could be more exhaust issues. No smoking or soot issues, a little fumey on start up. Seems to shift into gear with less of a clunk too.

Was thinking of running some Rislone engine treatment with an oil change this weekend and giving it a good run, feels like it needs to really blow out the cobwebs ha ha.. Any suggestions would be appreciated guys...

Also it's running a set of 70s Cadillac wires with 235/70/15s on them which rub on full lock. I wanna ditch them anyway, but will these tires work on the stock rims? They are brand new so if they don't rub I'd stick with them.

Cheers!

The ticking/chuffing you describe could be an exhaust leak, especially at the manifold. Pull the plug wires one at a time while the engine is running and determine if the sound changes. If it does you have an exhaust leak at that cylinder. Also check for a change in idle rpm when you pull each plug wire because the shudder on start up which smooths out while underway sounds like an engine miss. Good luck,

Tom Mooney

[JanZverina]

Hi Powerage,

You didn't mention this and maybe you have done it already, but closely inspect and change if needed any rubber vacuum lines at the carb. Even small leaks can cause issues. You may also want check the condition of the motor mounts and trans mount. And installing a Pertronix Ignitor II electronic ignition along with the matched coil will work wonders. That's one of the first things I do when I get an older car, and despite what you may read on this or other forums they are generally trouble-free.

[60FlatTop]

I didn't see the compression readings.

Bernie

[RivNut]

One other place to check for a leak is the freeze style plug in the bottom of the intake manifold. It's exposed to corrosive gasses and holes can be burnt into it.

[lrlforfun]

OK Riviera People: Again, with the ridiculous internet diagnosis. Do this, do that. I'm not going to make friends here. How about me telling you what you DON'T want to hear?

I suggest a list of scientific diagnostic procedures. Randomly replacing parts? Come on now! Throwing out suggestions? Y'all know better. Maybe you're right, maybe not. Way too maybees for me and I'm not a mechanic. I recently participated on a BCA thread where the member mentioned his car developed a smoking out the tailpipe problem. Everybody said it was something or could have been something. My suggestion was to identify what was coming out of the tailpipe and start there.

So....I suggest that Powerage start with the given. It is 50 years old. it runs, it has noises that don't sound like they belong there. This is the starting point. Now what is the next scientific step? OH, BTW, Want to blow up your car in a hurry? Use Risilone.

Identify a single problem. Isolate it, diagnose it, verify diagnosis, repair the issue, identify and exactly why the component failed. Then, go on to the next issue. As always, don't forget to backtrack.

I really hope that by chastising you will be aware of how important a proper diagnosis is in the successful repair and proper performance of a nice piece of machinery. Don't forget......it can be a toaster, a reclining couch or a widget. I also hope that I can get a movement of support in this direction because this internet fixing of cars is a toxic epidemic that lowers the bar for all. Mitch

Edited May 4, 2015 by lrlforfun (see edit history)

[60FlatTop]

Starting with a compression reading is step one of a scientific diagnosis. I just looked up at the Mcgraw-Hill mechanic books my mother helped me buy when I was 11. It says to do that first. There is a specific itemized sequence that works great for me.

"ridiculous internet diagnosis"? That was the reason I quit reading Greek mythology around the year 2000.

Like #7.

Bernie

[JanZverina]

OK Riviera People: Again, with the ridiculous internet diagnosis. Do this, do that. I'm not going to make friends here. How about me telling you what you DON'T want to hear?

Dear lrlforfun,

I don't usually respond to comments that take the chastising tone that yours typically do, but I'll go out on a limb here and note that by just beginning everyone of your entries with "OK Riviera People:" is probably a big, condescending turn-off for more readers on this forum than just myself. And you are indeed right about one thing: you probably won't make many friends here because of that approach. As to the subject at hand, I personally have found that what you call "Ridiculous Internet Diagnosis" can also be very helpful. Many such comments can spark another avenue or idea for diagnosis, and, at least in my experience, have led to fixing an issue for those of us who are experienced mechanics as well as novices. Kind regards,

[powerage]

OK lrlforfun: your post sure is a big condescending turn off. I have a young family, minimal spare time and not much more spare $$. I try to do as much as I can on my cars myself, within my limitations and budget. I find the type of "ridiculous internet diagnosis" that Ed and Jan have offered very helpful indeed. Something like the plug under the intake manifold for example, might have taken me forever to find without their helpful suggestions.

Thanks guys

Matt

Unsure about engine additives though. I hear and read very mixed opinions

[lrlforfun]

OK Matt, OK Jan: First, I begin every thread with OK. It ain't gonna change and I don't feel an apology is necessary. If you think I'm chastising you in particular, I'm not. My full intention is to chastise the group. What I am trying to do is chastise all the people who want to help and are really clueless (much like me) in diagnosing. Many really want to help and to me, help is in the form of learning scientific procedures.

How in the world can somebody diagnose a vehicle with out being there? There are proven scientific procedures and these are what need to be discussed. That, to me, would be supporting a fellow member. A noise? Come on now. The fact that Matt is on a limited budget as well as having limited time has NO bearing on what I'm trying to do here. What would help Matt, who I'm guessing doesn't know that much about cars from what he's said, would be to explain a diagnostic procedure/s.

So, what are diagnostic procedures? A compression check, a cylinder leak down test, an electrical check, a fuel check, oil pressure check, vacuum check, cooling system check,knowing how the thing works, isolating system components (including noises) identifying why the component/system actually failed. I'm missing quite a bit too.

No Risolone? That's a freebee from me. It is very hot and could easily stir sludge from the pan causing the oil pickup to clog. Kabam engine.

I'm trying to raise the bar on the standards of fixing these cars (or anything else for that matter). If you think my posts are offensive pleas contact Lamar so he can delete them.

Finally....you are welcome to join the 1960 Buick Universe and see how things roll on that trail. I'm done here. Mitch

Edited May 7, 2015 by lrlforfun (see edit history)

[Jim Cannon]

Matt-

Where do you live? If you add that to your profile, you might get some help from an ROA member that lives near you. I have personally visited several ROA members to help them with their car problems.

With all the soot mentioned, I'd suspect your carb needs a good rebuild. It's easy to do, does not cost much or take much of your time, and can really improve performance.

There are many other things to look at. Be systematic.

[petelempert]

This is supposed to be fun. I didn't think chastising was part of the hobby. Nor is being so rigorous that you approach every Riv challenge like an IRS audit. To me, one of the great pleasures of owning an old car is solving the various riddles they present, in whatever style you prefer. The fun in the hobby is often the peculiar way a solution is found. Sometimes the fix is found through sage advice from places like this forum, other times it's hours spent bumbling in your garage and eventually figuring it out. Other times, I have to call in a professional. Either way, I learn something. For me, this forum has provided an endless supply of technical advice, historical perspective, comradery, generosity and humor. If you are a mechanic getting paid to fix cars by the hour then I think systematic rigor makes lots of sense. Don't get me wrong. I have the highest regard for disciplined mechanics and I aspire to that standard. But, c'mon guys this is for fun. PRL

[Bill Stoneberg]

Thank You Peter, couldn't agree more.

[60FlatTop]

Well, sometimes IRL in not fun if you bring it into the computer.

I have coffee with a friend who follows a Volvo forum. The flavor is the same. All of this is a symptom of a greater problem, worldwide. It is access to facts without a foundation of knowledge. 45 years ago I learned why one multiplies the temperature difference of air by 1.08 or, if one prefers, 1.1 in some cases, to calculate BTUH, it's a plug in app now. Why is 500 a K factor? Multiply 8.334 by 60 and see.

Educators around the world are worried about the affect of readily available facts without knowledge or method.

When I wrote that I had not seen the compression readings it was a HINT. Four days ago and I bet step 1 hasn't been taken. It's in the book. Buy and read manuals, learn details, buy tools. All the stuff in my garage hits the road and goes. Reading these forums over the years there have been many times when I read a string of comments and told myself "This guy should collect watches." Knowing I won't be able to service my cars right up to the last day, I took my own advice. I have a nice collection of special watches. Well, more tools than watches.

Bernie

Edited May 8, 2015 by 60FlatTop (see edit history)

[carbking]

On any used car that is new to you, I would suggest a trip (unless you have a lift) to a reputable shop where the car can be lifted; and items under the car inspected. These items would include (but not limited to): exhaust, brakes, brake lines, fuel lines, ball joints, u-joints, steering components, tires, differential for leaks, etc. Personally, I feel this is more important than working on the engine, assuming the engine will run well enough to get to the shop and back. You did mention you fixed one exhaust leak already, and there is a tick-tick under the car. Fixing the exhaust might (especially if dual exhaust) have a positive effect on the running of the engine.

Once you start back on the engine:

(A) compression

( ignition (spark plug wires are often overlooked)

© carburetion

In the above order

Jon.

[1965rivgs]

Although a complete compression test has its application (any decent tech would choose to do a leak down test because he can already tell if an engine has compression by listening to it crank with the ignition shorted) a COMPLETE engine compression test is NEVER the FIRST step in troubleshooting an engine miss in the field....at least not by an experienced tech. The process always begins with a cylinder balance/power test to identify the offending cylinder. Time and energy is then devoted to the offending cylinder/cylinders. Why would one check for compression on a cylinder which is performing at an acceptable level? Who has that kind of time to waste....maybe book worms or "scientists"?? A compression test may be in order ON THE OFFENDING CYLINDER farther down the troubleshooting tree or to access overall engine health (again, a leak down test is better) but never the first step.

In this post the author is complaining of unacceptable idle quality and shuddering from a standing start which smooths out with speed. These are classic described symptoms of an engine miss so without the privilege of seeing and hearing his engine perform, because THIS IS THE INTERNET, I suggested he check for a miss. An engine miss may or may not have anything to do with a compression issue.

It is wholly unreasonable to expect or suggest I, or any one else, should write a text book in response to an INTERNET post. Geez....why bother to write anything? There are cars to fix!

Tom

Edited May 9, 2015 by 1965rivgs (see edit history)

[Seafoam65]

Hey guys

Getting to know my new 63 Riv I picked up a month ago. Has been in the wrong hands for a while, so to speak... Was running horribly when I got it, would start but hard to keep running, coughing and smoking with a good dump of soot coming out on start up. Shifting into gear came with a decent clunk. Changed plugs (they were blackened), fuel & air filters, topped fluids (they looked clean, just low), put in a good amount of new fuel in the tank, charged battery. Removed and cleaned PCV valve. Fixed an exhaust leak, but will probably replace eventually.

Runs much better. Starts very easily, even cold, auto choke good, keeps running no problem. However it does sound a bit ticky and sort of chuff chuff chuff if that makes sense. Standing in front of engine hood up, the engine sounds pretty healthy and quiet, more like the tick and chuff is coming out the exhaust, more so passengers side. Perhaps more leaks somewhere.

It idles a little fluttery, and on take off it feels quite shuddery, then smoothes out as you speed up. It run's pretty strong, plenty of power, no cooling issues although it does smell a little hot (again, if that makes sense). Theres some ticking that sounds about midway under the floor passenger side, but it could be more exhaust issues. No smoking or soot issues, a little fumey on start up. Seems to shift into gear with less of a clunk too.

Was thinking of running some Rislone engine treatment with an oil change this weekend and giving it a good run, feels like it needs to really blow out the cobwebs ha ha.. Any suggestions would be appreciated guys...

Also it's running a set of 70s Cadillac wires with 235/70/15s on them which rub on full lock. I wanna ditch them anyway, but will these tires work on the stock rims? They are brand new so if they don't rub I'd stick with them.

Cheers!

I'm going to chime in here as I'm in the car repair business and

deal with these kind of problems on a daily basis. In reading the original post this is a ten minute diagnosis at the most....here is what I'd do if you rolled into my shop.....You have a miss in your engine...from your post it sounds like it is not a dead hole all the time but an intermittent condition

at idle that goes away with RPM increase. First thing is to put the car in drive while someone pulls one wire out of the distributor cap at a timeto see

if any one cylinder is consistently weaker than the others and to see if all the cylinders are hitting at idle. If you have a completely dead hole that when you pull off the wire and it makes no difference, run a compression on that cylinder and compare it to the reading of a good hitting cylinder. If the hole is completely dead and compression is good, check spark on that hole.

If all the cylinders are hitting but you have a random misfire puff out the tailpipe, you have sticking valves, the malady of all old cars that sit around all the time and don't get driven. When I bought my 55,000 mile 65 Riviera ,

it had horrible sticking valves at idle. I cured mine by pouring marvel mystery oil down the throat of the carb a little at a time, and keeping the throttle opened up enough so the engine doesn't choke down and die, then going out and driving it for a couple of thousand miles over the next year....

solved the heck out of my problem....the engine on my Riv purrs like a kitten at idle now. My 70 Chevelle SS 396 that I own had been sitting for ten years without being driven but 60 miles and it had horribly sticking valves and stuck piston rings causing horrible blow by ........when you pulled the pcv valve out of the valve cover, oil vapors would shoot out the grommet 5 feet high! I kept pouring marvel mystery oil down the carb and driving the car regularly and fixed all the problems....no engine rebuild necessary! The

engine in the Chevelle actually only had a hundred miles on a rebuild, but it was damaged from sitting too much. If you have an old car.....drive it regularly, don't just let it sit....it's the absolute worst thing you can do to an engine. Getting back to the original post.....sounds like you have sticking valves and a flooding carburetor, indicated by the black soot on the plugs.One other thing,

make sure you have prober dwell on your points if you don't have an electronic ignition conversion kit inside your distributor, which I STRONGLY recommend. I have a pertronix electronic ignition kit in

the distributors of all my cars....like American Express....don't leave home without it!

Edited May 9, 2015 by Seafoam65 (see edit history)

[NTX5467]

I concur with Seafoam65's "thinkin'" on this deal. If you had a huge Sunn engine diagnostic machine, they'd call it a "cylinder balance test" where each cylinder could be individually "killed" to check for rpm variations, while also watching the scope of the ignition traces for each cylinder.

For general principles, I'd spray-down the throttle bore/venture section of the carb, first finding where the various air bleeds are (idle system and main system, for each throttle bore) as a "decreased-size" air bleed can make that particular circuit go "richer" than it should be. These bleeds should be visible when looking down the carb's throttle bores, I suspect, so hitting them with plenty of carb cleaner should get them cleaned up.

The "shudder" on take-off COULD be from a spark plug(s) missing under the initial load of getting the car moving, but then start firing again once that load is removed as the car reaches cruising speed. Be sure to check the "point dwell" reading for the ignition points, plus that the vacuum advance mechanism is not leaking. Then add a new set of plug wires (I personally prefer the Borg-Warner spiral-wound resistance wires, pre-made, which should address any plug wire issues once and for all AND are very reasonably-priced. Then make sure the spark plugs are gapped to the correct gap. Those things can get the ignition system (other than internal cap/rotor condition, which might be cleaned up a little rather than replaced) take care of.

I know that Rislone has a long and storied history in automotive chemistry, but when I bought a car in the 1970s, I didn't really want to replace one quart of motor oil with "something else". What I'd do was to do a fresh oil change with quality motor oil, when it got down a little, I'd add a pint of Stewart-Warner Alemite CD-2 oil detergent. When it got 1 quart down again, I'd add another pint. By the end of that second pint, it was usually time for an oil change, so I did that. From what I could see inside the valve cover oil cap hole, everything was spotless on the rocker arms and such.

I also, when doing an oil change, would pour an extra quart of oil through the motor after the initial oil had drained. I knew there was a low spot in the oil pan near the drain plug where residual oil might reside, so I wanted to flush that out, too. Seemed like a good investment to me, when high quality multi-vis motor oil was less than $2.00/qt.

As for that "shudder on initial acceleration", that might also be a driveline u-joint issue. Initial load issues can affect weak or worn u-joints just as marginally-firing spark plugs can. If there's a multi-piece driveshaft under the car, inspect the center carrier bearing support for "sag" and/or integrity. Where these things can also show-up is in a slight, higher-level vibration at freeway speeds, kind of like a tire that's out of balance, but is not.

In many cases, these "internet diagnostics" can be good places to exchange information.

NTX5467

[1965rivgs]

An engine miss in a large V8 always "feels" as though it "smooths out" with RPM but doesnt necessarily mean it is not still present. This is generally an owner perception issue and a VERY common description, especially if the owner has been living with the issue for awhile or if it was present from day 1 of ownership.

As a tech the more info I can use to diagnose the better. There are certain symptoms which present themselves in unison on a regular basis. Sometimes a customer`s description of symptoms represents distinctly different problems and that is usually obvious immediately. But this person`s description is classic engine miss. Could it be a fuel mixture issue resulting in poor idle quality and a driveline issue producing the shudder? Sure, but two distinctly different and unrelated problems is not the first place I would go as a tech in this circumstance. Why not address two symptoms with one cure? Just seems like common sense to me....

Tom Mooney