mrcvs

Creative financing, or...everyone is a wealthy 'real' doctor?

Recommended Posts

Hey Greg,  I think by the end of the day yesterday I was getting in to a sour mood and I should not have  added that sentence as it was not appropriate - so I removed it.   Your point about the hobby being a journey and not a destination is a good one.   

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

wow, lots of interesting discussion on life here with some smattering of good advice concerning collector car choices thrown in for good measure! Admittedly I got sucked in when someone suggested this thread as one of the few interesting threads going on right now - I think summer has a lot of folks in the garage vs. on the PC.

Couple of quick thoughts come to mind immediately - life is full of choices, and opportunities as Joel and others have pointed out. Also, to A.J.'s point - it does pay dividends to look at one's self honestly. I am in a corporate environment, and just responded to the annual questionairre for management about "relocation" with an honest "no thanks" knowing full well this limits advancement, but I am also at a stage in life where I don't want anyone wasting my time nor do I want to waste my employer's time, I know full well I could be losing out on some financial opportunities but other things outweigh that. So a lot of this comes down to choices we all make no matter what one does for a living. Another example could be a factory worker choosing to invest in night school or not to better themselves.

I always wanted a Packard, worked hard got a nice one a few years ago that I then chose to move along partially due to the fact I wanted to put some money back into the "general fund" as my kid was considering law school. A choice (no coercion involved!) and I thought well, if I want another one I can always go get one later on. Not too far down the road, and we now have three moderately priced hobby cars that don't keep me up at night worrying about paying for them.

Life does not pass luck out evenly (although I am a firm believer that one's efforts and choices are the biggest impact on luck). Some of us are born into wealth, which is nice, but I don't need to look much further than an employee here who was born without his arms and is thrilled to have a job somewhere vs. sitting home with his parents and dying of boredom. If you are vertical, and can drive your antique car you are a LOT luckier than a lot of folks in situations like that.

Anyway, since everyone put in two cents I figured I would so the same. Best advice on collector car choices IMHO, is Ed's noting collectible cars tend to give a lot of enjoyment at all levels. Get something you are comfortable with both in terms of the size of the project, cost and an era/type of car that will hold your interest. Aspire to something if you want, or be happy with a long term car. It is a great hobby whether your ride is a Model A Ford or a Duesenberg - but the "A" is easier to park! :-)

Edited by Steve_Mack_CT (see edit history)
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Steve,  you stole one of the sentences I was going to add:     You can have as much fun with a Model A as a Model J!!!!

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Aspire to something if you want, or be happy with a long term car. It is a great hobby whether your ride is a Model A Ford or a Duesenberg - but the "A" is easier to park! :-)

I couldn't agree more, but...

 

Every time I bring up the main page of aaca.com, and all those old cars come up, the 1910 Maytag, unrestored, makes me drool all over the keyboard.  :D

 

Sure, riding in a Model A is fun...but something I haven't done is ride in a Maytag!

 

By the way, THAT specific car, where is it these days?  How much would I have to 'aspire to', in order to call that my set of wheels?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Maytag is a model A so you could ride in a model A and a Maytag at the same time. That car is in a collection of a guy that tours a lot and loves his cars I met him at an auction and then again when I was at an HCCA tour. He is a real nice guy he has 2, the unrestored roadster and a restored touring. you can PM me if you just have to know his name, I don't like spreading peoples name around the internet when I really don't know him that well. As far as value, ask Joel1967 he has one I believe he bought the restored 1910 touring out of sparks that was for sale. Don't know what he paid. But I am sure the unrestored original one is worth a pretty penny, In fact the owner of it may have been a doctor when I think about it. The problem with the Maytag is there is only probably a dozen cars out there mostly Maytag's some are Mason which is what they were called before Maytag bought the company. Duesenburg brothers designed the Mason and helped develop it into the Maytag but they didn't last long after Maytag took over before they left and started their own company. The early Masons most likely were built with Duesenburg hands and Maytag's probably not depending on when it was made and since they are a pain to date you will never know. Also Mason's were raced a lot in hill climbs they are great performers but if you scatter a crank in that aluminum block your done, it is only original once! If I were you I would buy an 2cyl Buick or Reo if you are looking for a 2cyl car, they are just as much fun and if anything happens your not spending the price of an restored Model T ford just to repair the engine.

 

Chris

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not to stray too far OT but Joel, I assume from the background given is "HemiJoel" on youtube - and he has done some fantastic videos of maintenance and repair on his Duesenberg.  Just a quick thank you Joel, most entertaining - and while Duesy owners are a small group, those who wrench them personally I am thinking are an even smaller group.   :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yup, that's me on YouTube. Back before I had the Duesenberg, I spent 20 years lusting for the details. I wanted to see one with the hood open, I wanted to crawl under it, sit in it, drive it, hear it run, take it apart,  figure it out. So now that I have the ability to do so, I want to share the experience with others who may have the same passion that I do for these special cars. Thus, the YouTube videos.

Also Chris is right about the 1910 Maytag that I acquired. It is formerly of the Harrah collection, then purchased by Mr. Jim Sargent of Reno, who commissioned Clyde Wade to restore it. It is a Model C touring. (if this is too far off topic, let me know and I will delete it)

10000_zps14ian0ky.jpg

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Joel,

 

That car is awesome!  I assume you were born in 1967, so only 3 years older than me!  I sure hope I can afford a car like that in 3 years!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Joel, that's a sweet Maytag !

 My father has always maintained that if I had simply put as much effort into becoming wealthy as I did into the cars my situation would have been far more satisfying in the long run.  He started me on old cars as a young boy but always as a spectator at shows and similar gatherings. He worked for a G.M. dealership where the owners were also old car fans. And several of the cars were restored at the dealership over the years, so my Father knew the sort of expense a nice car involved. He being a working family man knew that sort of expense on a hobby was out of the question, so he has always been somewhat against my efforts to be an old car owner despite my situation of non -wealth.

  My Father is the product of the times he grew up in. { he is 81 and going strong} Born in the bleak years of the depression, he has always lived by a simple rule. Whenever you think you want something look in your wallet, if the cash is not there think about something else. I grew up in the 60's and early 70's when it seemed like anything was possible if you were prepared to work for it. We have since had a few recessions and probably our own depression depending who you listen to. My optimism now looks a bit foolish compared to my fathers practical in the extreme outlook. I used to think of him as defeatist but now see how it has worked for him over his life, and have a new respect for him. He is a text book example of contentment and lacks for nothing in the necessities of life.  The prize as you demonstrate is so tempting, and I feel I will be satisfied with my involvement even if I never come close to something like your Maytag ,sensible parental advice be dammed!

 Despite my involvement with the mechanical world for all these decades, I really haven't progressed very far along in my pursuit of the prize. I can after all these years see my Father's point that I should have attended to the one thing that is crucial to a hobby that is as expensive as old cars. And that I should have focused my energies on securing the level of wealth that is at the end of the day as important as any amount of enthusiasm for the subject. However I have learned not to dwell too much on past mistakes, and will continue to pick away at old rusty junk until I can pick no more. It's more in my blood than the drive to succeed at the world of business or investment.

 It would be nice to think that there will someday a solution to the money situation, but that one is probably beyond me. Real estate is the most common road to success around here and amongst people I know, but it now takes such titanic resources that it has become the domain of people who are already quite wealthy or who are part of an investors syndicate. I have neither the capital or the connections to take part in our local Canadian market. Nor the time, I already work 12 days on , 6 off and my first 2 off are more or less recovery days from all the body clock disruptions.

 When I see a car such as yours it does jolt me back to my personal reality of how far away from a finished machine I really am.  I am thrilled to see cars like your Maytag ; it keeps the dream alive, but at the same time demonstrates just how high and long the uphill stretch is. Well ; back to the sand blaster, and I better pick up another box of welding rods next time I am in town.  

 

Greg in Canada

Edited by 1912Staver (see edit history)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for the nice comments on the Maytag. There's pro and cons to buying a done car. It's faster, easier, and probably cheaper. But one can't say they did it themselves.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Greg is also taking on an unusual project which may require more research, fabrication and other restoration work and certainly more work finding parts than say the T speedster project I have. I think thats an admirable effort. I hope you view the process as a rewarding experience. At the end of the day you will have a unique vehicle, more work but your not as likely to see yourself at a show as I am with either of my fords. Of course at the rate I am going we just may finish at the same time, early 2020 perhaps!?

Edited by Steve_Mack_CT (see edit history)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Back to topic of affordable brass cars ready to go, it would be interesting to get feedback on some of the lighter cars of the era in terms of road ability. Seems some nice alternative choices in this month's antique automobile. Buicks seem to represent a nice compromise between power and price, but if a two seater fits the bill are there any other choices that come to mind?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I like early Buicks a lot. They are reasonably numerous; quite well built , and offer decent bang for the buck. I looked at a few before I took on the Staver. Most of the brass Buicks I encountered were small and mid model tourings, which appear to have been built for pretty compact drivers. As I mentioned in another post I an just shy of 6'2" and found the space allotted to the driver of these cars a  somewhat uncomfortable squeeze.  And a Model T is even worse.

 The Staver was a good compromise as the original body was long gone. If I ever find a surviving Staver car body I would of course use it but chances seem slim, a few Staver bodies have turned up but they have been from a strange automotive styled buggy Staver offered in 1913-14. With no factory body at hand it only seemed natural to build a speedster which allows me to have all the leg room I require. Staver did not catalog a production model speedster in the "40 H.P." series ;  Bearcat and the like style, such as a number of other makers did. But they did build a small number of factory racing cars; mainly on the small model, but at least 2 on the large w.b. model like mine. I intend for mine to end up as close as possible to the factory built racers except I will install fenders and running boards for road use.

2020 seems a bit optimistic, there is still a long way to go. The big missing part is the lower part of the engine. Its more or less the same 4 1/2 x 5 Teetor Hartley as the 1912 era American Underslung Tourist uses {anyone got one under their workbench gathering dust?] , which has proved a difficult thing to find. At some time in the future I may have to bite the bullet and get a pattern made for a crankcase casting, but this will be a last resort because of the high cost. Baring that if I can find a suitable era and size engine from something else I may resort to a substitution but once again as a last resort.  The car mounts the engine to a sub frame so the engine mounts need to be narrow. But its definitely a learning experience. Now if I could only get my 15 year old son interested. {he likes my MGA so I haven't given up hope}.

Greg in Canada

 

Edited by 1912Staver (see edit history)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Fords and Buicks were mentioned, above, as reasonably-priced cars from this era.  I think Hupmobiles are, as well.  What else comes to mind?

 

I have to mention, though, and I can't explain this.  My daily driver is a 10 yr old, rather mundane VW.  I could care less about having a unique modern car that turns anyone's head--reasonable to lower cost with at least some reliability.  However, when it comes to a brass era car, Ford Model T's and Buick's are 'okay', and then there are Maytags and Pope-Hartfords!

 

In any event, when the time comes to purchase something...Fords, Buicks, Hupmobiles and...????

 

By the way, I joined the Horseless Carriage Club of America.  A periodical to arrive every 3 months for me to drool all over!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have a 1909 Mason model 12---the two in one---truck and touring.  It is a great vehicle, two cylinder, easy start, and cruises nicely at 35 to 40 mph. If you are ever in Wisconsin let me know and I will give you a ride. RHL

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

HCCA actually has a pretty active Facebook page so you can drool daily as well. I know some of the posters are active here but since fb is so picture and video oriented you do pick up some cool vehicles and event coverage.

Greg, an MG T is one of those cars I always wanted but never bought. Almost this year but we went for the A (ford) instead. MGA is a cool car.

Edited by Steve_Mack_CT (see edit history)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The photos in the above post were taken in the previous owners shop. They date back about 15 years when I bought it. The Stevens Durea engine was incorrect and was not included with what I bought. I have not reassembled it to this stage since I bought it but have been working on individual parts.  Once I have more shop space I will take some more up to date photos.

 

Greg in Canada

Edited by 1912Staver (see edit history)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, I attended the following today:

 

http://awkscht.com/index.html

 

Das Awkscht Fescht in Macungie, PA, 2015.

 

Okay, LOTS of early stuff, almost, but not quite, to the point where it made my 1917 Maxwell almost seem new.

 

So, maybe just maybe it is my personality, I guess being raised in an area where there was lots of wealth, except my family didn't have any of it, so I guess when there is a price tag attached to something, even though I don't have tons of money, it is FUN to dream of having unlimited funds--e.g., I bought the Pope-Hartford yesterday, today I bought something else with an ungodly price tag--and, oh, I attend Barrett Jackson regularly and I always make sure I come home with a half a dozen cars or so!  :) That sort of personality is what got me stuck at good ol' State U, BTW, although it wasn't like I could have afforded anything better, but I really complicated things by ensuring that, other than good ol' State U, I applied to high dollar colleges.  Fortunately, I only got into one of them, and the financial aid was such a joke that it made good ol' State U the only viable option.  But I digress...

 

So, at this car show, there was a 1912 Buick, a few EMF's, a 1909 Maxwell-Briscoe, some early Dodge Bros cars, an Overland or two, a really neat 1913 Studebaker, and lots of Model T Fords.  Without a price tag attached, I liked virtually all of them.  Not sure about a Model T Ford, with the three pedals and all, but I could be happy with a 1913 Studebaker or a 1912 Buick.  I am into antique firearms as well, and I get listings from time to time, and I dream about purchasing high dollar firearms, one lot after the other, and wonder who these folks are.  But, in the end, a vintage firearm that I can use from time to time, seems to be more my style.  Maybe it is only 90%, and not 100%, but still respectable...

 

Not saying I am ready to do anything now, or maybe I am.  But, maybe not this week, or this year, or next year, but if you are in the Macungie, PA area and have an early Brass Era car you want to sell at a reasonable price, PM me.  By the way, I love a bargain! :D

 

If you have not been, you need to see this car show if you are anywhere nearby.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Update:

 

No, I don't have that Brass Era car yet, but I have joined the HCCA and enjoy the quarterly journals.  Also, perusing the Classifieds section on their website makes me drool.  I have realized, in the past year, either that I had completely missed the boat, and either focused on that super rare pre-1915 car, like the Pope Hartford or a 1910 Maytag, and given up hope, or that some of the lower priced stuff, is more readily available and/or that the lower priced stuff isn't as much of an economic hurdle as previously perceived.  A few months ago, I did locate a 1913 Studebaker for $25,000, and there is a beautiful 1910 Maxwell for sale currently at $32,000.  I am trying to pay off some pesky student loans in the next year or so, and once I am free of that burden, it makes sums such as these not seem so cumbersome.  So, I am optimistic that maybe not in the next year or two, but relatively soon, I will be in possession of said Brass Era car.

 

As I start to become more knowledgeable and pursue the Classifieds for this sort of car, how do you determine what is a fair price to pay, or what such car(s) are worth?  I guess, I mean, how do you not overpay?  The best I can do is maybe locate a similar car for sale and note the asking price of that one, and see if the one I might be interested in is priced less, of course not really knowing if that "other" car is fairly priced, or actually ever sold at that asking price, or anywhere even close to the asking price.  I mean, how many 1913 Studebakers trade hands in any given year?

 

The other hurdle I face is a lack of garage space.  Trying to work on that...my wife adores the cookie-cutter house in suburbia, whereas I am more of a house and barn in the countryside in which the barn can house several cars...of course, fully realizing that a barn isn't the best of places to store a car--more accessible to vermin, etc., than an enclosed garage.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hello Again mrcvs! Glad to hear you joined the HCCA. It has been my favorite club. I joined in 1967. Anyway, please do also join your local regional group. Get to know the members in your area, they can be a lot of help (and usually become good friends) and perhaps give you a lead on a car. We did not have a regional group where I am in Wisconsin so,we started one!

 

I am curious as to exactly why you desire a brass-era car. Are you interested in touring or are you wanting a car to show? Personally, touring is the most fun (and frustrating too when things break on ones car, and they do). If that is your desire you really don't need that awesome car. There are things in the road that have a nasty habit of giving one's car paint chips, among other things. If you acquire a beautifully restored car, such as  Pope Hartford, you will most likely will cry at the first chip. I know I would. My cars for touring look like used cars, with lots of patina, and thus road dangers (i.e stones and such) are of less of a concern. But if you want to show, you will need to save up for a car like that and/or pay for restoration work, and that can be expensive.

 

But I have to ask, what is wrong with a Model T? They are reasonably priced, parts are readily available (important), they give you the feel of the past and  they are quite tourable. If you look through your Gazettes you will see that a lot of the tours are populated with Model t Fords. I never actively sought a 'T' but wound up acquiring a 1915 Roadster. Yes, it does have those three pedals on the floor but it does not take long to learn to drive it. I haven't put a lot of miles on it yet but next year (after hip replacement) I may moth ball my 1909 Regal and drive the 'T' on tours. I think a 'T' is a good way to start with brass-era cars. You are not in too deep financially, should the hobby prove to not to be to your liking, and you can get a lot of experience with the brass-era car hobby. If you are as hooked as I am, then you can move up to a larger car. The other thing to think about is you mechanical skills. Brass cars have things that can annoy one, such as carburetors and magnetos let alone the need to have someone pour babbittings should you car so need it. Something to think about.

 

Good luck with your search.  Keep asking questions though. There are no dumb questions and the more you ask, the more you learn. A bit of advice that I am still not sure of is - 'you never pay to much for a car, you just bought too early'. Oh, I share the desire for a Pope. Actually my love would be a Thomas-Flyer. That would be my ultimate brass-era car. For a Classic, I long for a vintage Bentley. Both which are very unlikely to wind up in my garage. But, as Jefferson Starship said 'it ain't what you want it's what you need'.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

First, I am interested in one for touring, so having a Brass Era car that sits under a tarp all the time except when hauled on a trailer to a car show is not my style.  I would take it to the local car show, but that is just my means of transportation to and from the show.

 

As for a Model T.  That is indeed an entry level Brass Era car.  I think I want something a bit less pedestrian, although I have not certainly ruled out a Model T.  I had seen a 1913 Studebaker at the local show and one was offered for sale in California, I think, some time ago.  I tend to accumulate and not flip or resale, and with limited garage space, it would probably make things crowded a bit when I get the Model T, and then some other Brass Era car as well, although, hopefully by then, I will have long ago sold where I'm at and moved on to a place with more covered space.  On this note, a car that can be in a barn, or similar environment, as opposed to a show car, would prove more practical.

 

So, how do you know what to pay?  I mean, even if an identical car as one that was listed for sale, it still is comparing apples to oranges.  Condition may be far different, the asking price of the car you are using as a reference may be far different than what it sold for, if it even sold at all.  Maybe a Model T is better in this regard, as at least there are a significant amount of sales relative to other makes & models.

 

I was born 3 years after you joined the HCCA, for what it's worth.

 

But, thank you!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi mrcvs.

 

I agree with you, touring is the way to go although I have restored cars for show in the past. The chase for a trophy does not appeal to me anymore. We (my wife and I) do go to local shows though. There is a definite lack of knowledge (and interest?) in the general public about the brass-ear car and we who own them have a bit of an obligation to get them 'out in the open' to generate interest and keep the hobby alive.

 

My car friends also thin the 'T' is too pedestrian, a did I until I got the '15 Roadster. This was more of a nostalgic acquisition as my dad took me to see a '15 Roadster when he learned that I was becoming a car 'nut'. I thought it was cute and would get one of my own sometime. That sometime took 50 years. I was just going to look at it as an art piece and remember my father with it but I learned to drive it and it is one fun car.

 

If you don't go for a 'T' I would recommend a Buick rather than a Studebaker. There seem to be more parts available for the Buick and plenty of people tour with then, so help and advice is available. They seem to be dependable.  Buick produced many models so there is a wide price range for them. Speaking of prices, in real life I am an appraiser (houses though not cars) and it is a bit of an art to value something. If you continue with your research, reading the Gazette, looking a Ebay listings and the like in time you will get a feel for the proper price range of a given car. It is not necessary to try to get examples of the same car you want to value (unless there are lots of sales of the make) but one can develop a value range for, say, 30 hp four-cylinder cars or two-cylinder chain drive cars etc. I am not a fan of auctions as indicators of value. Too much emotion involved in auctions. My opinion.

 

I hope you find what you are looking for. If you were not so far east I would say come over and we could show you some examples of brass-ear cars and maybe get you driving one. I would think that there might be a Model T club in your area, or a local HCCA regional group. If they are like our local groups, they may give you a ride or even get you in the drivers seat. It is one thing to read about and look at cars, another to actually feel one on the road.

 

Good luck!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi mrcvs.

 

I do not own a Model T because my family history goes back over 100 years with Buick so I own Buicks.

 

That said, if you are going to tour the Model T is the best vehicle for a first time tourer.  There are lots of groups to tour with,  parts are available for everything, and THERE IS LOTS OF HELP from other members to keep you on the road. Be a friend and you will have lots of friends.  

 

If you are on a tour and a part breaks, you can call one of the Model T suppliers and have the part at your hotel the next morning if you want.  This is not possible with most other cars.

 

I was out on a tour in June with friends and had a rod break on my Buick truck.  At one time I have a new (used) rod for it coming from a friend in New York, the base engine in Ohio at the machine shop, and the rest of the parts at my home in Michigan.  Not able to be fixed in the field.

 

Might have been able to have been fixed at the hotel parking lot if it was a Model T.

 

Some day I might just buy a T to say that I have one.

Edited by Larry Schramm (see edit history)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Logic says I should get a Model T, eventually, but, then again, I am not always that logical, so we shall see.

 

I am not completely a novice to early cars, as I have a 1917 Maxwell and a 1930 Ford Model A.  I suppose if the Brass Era car ended up put away for awhile pending finding a particular part, I always have the Model A to drive, so it is not imperative that the car run at all times, although this tends to be more attractive than the alternative.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...