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This "one knee only" garbage is an "old wives tale" that has been perpetuated by owners who feel that it gives them an advantage in judging. mad.gif" border="0 <P>I grant that it has been said and taught in judging schools for years that, "You should be able to judge the chassis of a car by getting down on one knee and it is not necessary to crawl under a car to judge the chassis." I have never viewed this as a prohibition against getting in whatever position is necessary to adequately judge the chassis. You can't judge the chassis of a Jaguar XK 120 on a grass field by getting down on only one knee!<P>I know of no judge who has been reprimanded, dismissed or shot for using something other than the sainted "one knee' position when it became necessary to find a non authentic component such as an electric fuel pump which has been cleaverly hidden high up under the body. I have on occasions laid down on my side to find that pump and if I am to be prohibited from doing my job in the best way possible, then my 33 year judging career will come to an abrupt end.<P>I will say that there have been numerous instances where an owner has bitched because he saw a judge in other then the "one knee" position while judging HIS car. I would just about guarantee it had nothing to do with "the rules", but instead was based on the owners concern that the judge might find a legitimate deduction under there.<P>I view harping on this "one knee" stuff as a form of political correctness. It is being used by some to gain personal advantage and has nothing to do with proper judging procedure or what is right.<P>If any of the powers that be in judging have any objection to my position and want the "one knee" rule to be hard and fast, then come on here and lets have at it.<P>Howard Scotland

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jac ~ You came on right after me. Had you preceeded me, my post would have said exactly the same thing.<P>Yes, it is in the manual. Is "shall" a recommendation or an iron clad rule and command? confused.gif" border="0<P>I think the time has come to get a firm ruling on this from the VP class Judging.<P>Are we prohibited from any other position?<BR>If we are I will have to retire from judging, because I am physically unable to use the "one knee" position. In most cases I judge chassis on two knees, because I can at least get up from that position.<P>I realize I could decline to judge chassis for physical reasons, but I feel an AACA judge should be able to judge <B>ANY</B> of the four categories on the judging sheet. We may prefer one over the others, but a judge should be able to do the ENTIRE CAR.<P>When any judge is unable to perforn as a complete judge, that person should retire. There are a number of judges out there who are just not able to do the job, but don't have the good grace to retire.<P>Perhaps my time has come. frown.gif" border="0 <P>hvs<P>Jim, after making this post I found you had slipped another one in ahead of this. We may have bad knees, but our typing fingers are fast. rolleyes.gif" border="0<p>[ 04-29-2001: Message edited by: hvs ]

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There I go getting the hard part! Sure jac, get the rookie to pick up the car.<P>I do agree with Howard on the one knee ruling. You can not properly judge a chassis in many cases as stated in the book. It's no different than judging only half the class' engine compartments and not the others to me. <P>Rick

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To follow up on Rick's thought. Why don't we have a rule that you can only open one side of a hood on cars with hoods which are hinged in the middle [most everything until the '40s]. rolleyes.gif" border="0 That would give the guys with two piece hoods a big advantage over the one piece hood guys. <P>Why not go a little further and let the owner decide which side we can look at. Sounds ridiculous doesn't it. shocked.gif" border="0<P>Well it's no more ridiculous than restricting the position the judge must assume to judge the chassis.<P>I have emailed the VP Class-Judging to review this thread, and let's hope he and the Judging Committee put an end to this "one knee" nonsense. A recommendation is certainly OK, but an outright "one knee only" rule is stupid.<P>hvs

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I'll throw my comment in to agree with the previous replies. We will lose a lot of really good judges if we stick to the "one knee" concept. With the really low cars and the fact that our knees ain't what they used to be for many of us, it is an idea that needs to change,<P>Now for a story (hvs, you knew it was coming) I was doing chassis on a '20s vintage car many years ago and noticed that there was a heater vent in the floor of this tourer. I had heard of exhaust heated rear seat vents before, but never seen one. The next thing I knew I was under the car, flat on my back to see how the thing worked. All of a sudden I remembered what I was told in Judging School. blush.gif" border="0 <P>I did return to the normal judging posture, apologized to the Team Captain and asked him to tell the owner that I would not deduct for the fact that all of the duct work to connect the heater was missing since I had violated the one-knee rule.

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Could the 1 knee rule have been from a long time ago when cars were built much higher off the ground and could be easily seen from 1 knee? <BR>I agree with hvs that it is impossible to adequetly see thew undercarrage of the lower built cars that we have. I personally have spent many hours under my car detailing the chassis that hardly anybody except a judge will see. I feel good when I see a judge get down and really examine my work. Thousands of people walk by my car and see it, but the judges examine it inside and out and top to bottom and really do a great job. THANKS again!! smile.gif" border="0

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Had an experience at the New Holland, PA show in 1998. They asked for volunteer judges. I volunteered as I have done many times. I was on 2 knees and looking over a 1967 Chevy. Suddenly, a rather huge person loomed over me and asked: "What are you looking for, Oil??" I responded, saying <BR>"hello, how are you".<P>It did not dawn on me immediately, that, this guy was ticked off that I was doing too much scrutiny.<P>If I had the chance (hindsight), I could have told him that all the cars (20+) that I judged, got a 2-knee look from all 4 views.<P>There are many people that do not do the undercarriage work and forget, sometimes conveniently, that the whole purpose of the AACA is to maintain the vehicle as close as possible to new condition. If they want to hide things and simply hope no one sees it, then they are missing the message.<P>Regards, Peter J. wink.gif" border="0

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Well if it is one knee or get shot I'll get shot. I'm 34,couple years ago suffered a busted leg (both bone in the lower leg, clean in two and fractured one in the knee joint)and have a hard time getting up from kneeling on one knee. I judged chassis' in SC while still on crutches!! It would be better for me to be on two knees (without crawling under the car)to look under it that for me to be judging exterior or interior or engine compartments. Too many places for errors for me because I don't know all the different makes and models but I do know the underside of a car and it is the most comfortable place for me to judge. <P>I think the "one knee" rule started to keep people from actually crawling under the car to inspect it.<P>I have heard a story of one judge spotting some cloth hanging under a car (I believe it was an A Model). She slid under, pulled on it and pulled out socks, t-shirt, and undershorts and when she slid back out said "heck this guy apparently didn't have any fun". Some of the older judges might know who I'm talking about.<P>As Howard said about height, I have done the sports car class twice. Once in grass and it is hard to judge a chassis when the clearance from the grass is only about an inch. And the other on pavement and it is still tough to see much of anything due to low ground clearance on these cars.<P>Only if the judge is crawling up under the car should there be a legitiment complaint. You can see things pretty good on the chassis' of the car from the 40's on up on two knees without crawling under the car. <P>Guess I could look at it this way if the owner wants to get nasty about it. judging car with low ground clearance on one knee: Can't see rear axle -5pts, can't see frame -5pts, can't see shocks -3pts, can't see trans. drive line -5pts get the drift. It'd be about the same as taking the points for trunk interior because the owner left it locked. I personally wouldn't do that but do feel it is legit becuase you can't judge the catagory if you can't see it, same as the trunk.

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heizmann <BR> missed your post. I agree with you about people restoring all the car except the underside. I've encountered two cars the if the underside was done resonable close to the quality for the rest for the car they would have gotten thier juniors. frown.gif" border="0 Both of these cars should have been easy 395-400. The one car I couldn't hardly even find the tie rods and draglink for the grease and grime hanging of the frame and steering. Both cars still had <B>antique dirt</B>caked on the underside. shocked.gif" border="0

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Thank you gentlemen! There seems to be support for consideration of a change in the "one Knee" rule. smile.gif" border="0 <P>I have <B>ALWAYS</B> felt that it was a weapon some owners were trying to use against the judges. mad.gif" border="0 I don't know of any judges who, if they really want to get down for a better look and to do their job right, would be deterred by the "one knee" rule. We should NOT maintain a rule that works to the detriment of the AACA judging system.<P>Now let's work to let it be known by one and all that it is a recommendation and not an inflexable rule. Nothing should be cast in stone. <P>hvs smile.gif" border="0

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O.K. Gents; in the world of technical documentation, I.E. Engineering Drawings & Specificatons etc., use of the term "shall" indicates a MANDATORY REQUIREMENT and use of the term "May" indicates a permissive requirement. This interpretation was part of DOD-STD-100 and was invoked on all Government contracts and generally recognized throughout the technical community even in commercial industry.(Non Government) <BR> I agree; the rule book should be changed because an adequate evaluation of an undercarriage on most anything built in the last 50 years can't be done on one knee! At the risk of kicking open a hornets' nest; the only owner who would object to a "two knee" undercarriage inspection is one who is trying to pull the wool over the judges eyes. If you truly have a "Show Car", it is assumed that the underside is just as nice as the trunk, interior, engine compartment or body. At least that is this owners opinion. No; I am not an AACA Judge.<P> Tom

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Thanks for the response. Glad to stir the pot once in a while. Seems as though the "one knee" rule at this time is correct, be it right or wrong from opinions i this post. Funny it was mentioned that car owners with hoods that open both ways have an advantage if judges don't open the door on othe side. My experience also included this. The judge opened the driver door and the integrated mirror/spotlighted chipped the paint on my hood. This was at a local chapter in Florida's spring show. I was really just interested in the one knee rule so I would not be mistaken when I bring it up at our next meeting. Thanks for all responses. shocked.gif" border="0

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I have just received an email from a non AACA judge relative to the <B>EXACT</B> wording from the Judging Manual relative to the chassis judge and the "one knee" position. The manual says:<P><B>"CHASSIS JUDGES NEED NOT CRAWL COMPLETELY UNDER A VEHICLE. LEAN DOWN ON ONE KNEE AND LOOK UNDER THE VEHICLE"</B><P>So --- we have all fallen victim to the old wives tale foisted upon us by some, for whatever reason. It is NOT a rule, it is a suggestion at best.<P>We are <B>NOT</B> restricted to the "one knee" position and this is quite clear if the manual is read accurately.<P>So Roadmaster and others, you might pass on this message to those who would restrict the chassis judge's ability to judge thoroughly.<P>Hopefully this message will become part of the Judges Training Chairman's program and we can dispell this false "one knee" restriction once and for all.<P>hvs

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With the "CHASSIS JUDGES NEED NOT CRAWL COMPLETELY UNDER A VEHICLE. LEAN DOWN ON ONE KNEE AND LOOK UNDER THE VEHICLE", does that mean I can go under from head to ankles, I just got to keep my feet sticking out from in under? wink.gif" border="0 <P>Maybe that's the ruling so the team captian can find his chassis judge that fell asleep under the car. wink.gif" border="0<P>By the way the stament is under Judges in sec II-4d. <P>Seriously, there is no need to crawl under the car, but it is easier on the judges knees and he can do a better job if he is allowed to be on both knees.

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I'm glad we have this straightened out, since I have been under a few vehicles to get a good look, and on my stomach doing sports car and race car chassis. I wanted to point out, it is not always just the chassis judge that has problems along these lines.<P>A few years ago I was completely under a bus and I was doing engines. It took a full pass around the bus to locate the diesel mid-engine under the floor. After a huddle with the Captain it was decided I would only judge the half of the engine I could see from below since several seats and a piece of floor would have to be removed to get to the other half. The good news was there was lots of room under there. grin.gif" border="0 <P>Jim...

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Having had my car judged at the AACA Nationals and fortunate enough to win both a First Junior and Senior Award, I have no problem with a judge doign what ever is reasonable to judge the undercarriage of the cars. Before I went for my First Junior, I spend MANY hours under the car to ensure that it looked as nice udnerneath as it did on top. I was not concerned (well not any more than any nervous participant) as to how the judge would perform his responsibility. I felt I was treated fairly and was not concerned. Having also shown at the Mustang Club of America Nationals (which allows and encourages their judges to actual lay on their backs and crawl under the cars), the AACA judging was fine. If the owner has done his homework ont he car and is not trying to hide anything, I feel he shoudl not be concerned on how the undercarriage judge does his/her job - as long as it is fair to all participants. One knee, two knees or on his back - I personally have no problem with any of them. Just makes the award obtained more valuable to me persoanlly.<P>BOB

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Having had my car judged at the AACA Nationals and fortunate enough to win both a First Junior and Senior Award, I have no problem with a judge doign what ever is reasonable to judge the undercarriage of the cars. Before I went for my First Junior, I spend MANY hours under the car to ensure that it looked as nice udnerneath as it did on top. I was not concerned (well not any more than any nervous participant) as to how the judge would perform his responsibility. I felt I was treated fairly and was not concerned. Having also shown at the Mustang Club of America Nationals (which allows and encourages their judges to actual lay on their backs and crawl under the cars), the AACA judging was fine. If the owner has done his homework ont he car and is not trying to hide anything, I feel he shoudl not be concerned on how the undercarriage judge does his/her job - as long as it is fair to all participants. One knee, two knees or on his back - I personally have no problem with any of them. Just makes the award obtained more valuable to me persoanlly.<P>BOB

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An announcement was made during the judging breakfast at Talladega that the one knee "rule" is considered only to be a general guideline and that if for whatever reason, i.e. very low vehicle, bad knees, etc. the chassis judge must properly evaluate the chassis and if it take two knees down - do it! This will be clarified in the next Judging Manual, but it is the official opinion at this time.

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Now if "they" can show the same common sense in acknowleging that radial tire are safer than bias ply, people could be driving there vehicles with safer equipment. I challenge anyone to dispute the fact that radial tires are not safer. Otherwise they have their heads in the sand. Thought I'd stir the pot a little more. this is sure to get a response from people saying that radials are just cheaper, but not so for wide white radials. Let the thread grow!! shocked.gif" border="0

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Roadmaster, Please educate us. Just how are they safer on the average antique automobile we drive and show? I'm sure most of us already understand the ride difference they provide over a bias tire, but what actually makes them safer? I really would like to know this.<P>Rick

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Handling safety in the rain is one excellent example. Some people actually drive their cars daily and don't just leave them in a garage until the next show. Traction in the rain is unquestionably better thus safer. Braking in the rain or on a road that is still wet is decidely better. These performance tests have been done and prove the braking is improved, thus being safer for the driver that deals with these conditions ( drives the vehicle daily). Also when you have bias ply tires and drive on a stretch of road that has ruts or grooves or where roadwork is being done and the pavement is uneven or not very good, the bias ply tire will jerk the vehicle occasionally in a way that could cause a mishap. But the main reasons I believe are the wet condition for braking and handling. I don't think the arguement that you shouldn't drive so fast in these conditions merits much at all because as all know a wet strip of road at any speed can cause a loss of control to some extent. I expect all purists to blow this off, and they will respond to have another set of radials for driving if you want and bias for show. But alot of people cannot afford all this expense. If the radial tires make the vehicle safer than they should be allowed in my opinion. Thanks for letting me state my views. I'm sure people won't support this as much as the one knee rule because "that's the way it's always been". confused.gif" border="0

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So, then what you're suggesting is that the AACA should allow all owners of vehicles that have 14" and 15" radial all season tread tires, as they are for the most part the only radial size and type tires available, to show and accept their vehicles without point deductions at a high level AACA national meet based on originality, so they can run their antique cars in the rain? I'm I understanding this correctly? I'm just curious with the memberships thinking on this with radials. <P>Rick

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First of all I believe you can also find radial tires in 13"and 16 " sizes. I'm wondering if seat belts should be allowed? Are they? Is it due to safety? I think if you put a radial tire on that has the wide whites or whatever is correct to the extent of the car - that that should be allowed. What is exactly the AACA's position on safety equipment being allowed with no points deduction? I thought one of the purposes of the AACA, I'm probably mistaken, was to keep old cars in their original condition and to preserve an interest in restoring old cars instead of scrapping them. I've seen cars with paint jobs that were far superior to any the factory did- but that is okay? I myself love old cars, that is why I drive my car a lot, and yes sometimes it does rain, and yes sometimes the bias ply tires are not as safe as radials. I'm sure the "Membership" will side with you, as they do in most cases. But I don't believe your last response had an answer for any of the points I brought up. I could post a ton of info from tire manufacturers about the safety advantages of radials over bias ply. But the "membership" does not want to hear it because they don't like it. It's not that I don't make a valid point, as you cannot disprove any of what I've said. So let's get the "memberships" opinion and bury this again, which is what you want anyway. The question is are radial tires safer. Answer is unquestionably. Does the AACA care about it's members that actually drive their cars frequently. I don't think so. I don't see why it would not be considered okay to have radials in non-national shows either. Thanks for the time you've allowed me to spout off , but this is a position I'm very adamant about. If it is safer, it should be allowed, period. Thanks.

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Original? Let's see, add radial tires, add halogen head lights, add disc brakes, change all 6 volt systems to 12volt, put in air bags, add night vision technology. There we now have an original car with today's safety technology. Hey if you want to drive an antique car everyday put radials on it. If you want to show a car as original, then it's gotta be original. That's what makes these car so much fun to see, because that's the way they were without modifications.<P>I really do not see the radial issue as being one that is "that the way it's always been" You allow modifications for any reason and you damage the purpose of the hobbie. The preservation of antique cars. I have driven cars with bias tires for years and I have never had a situation that if you use common driving sense that you were in danger because of the design of your tires.<P>Don't mean to sound too aggressive but it is just my humble opinion. <P>Back on the original thread subject. I have no problem with any judge crawling under my car. I have nothing to hide.

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smile.gif" border="0 For safey, I'd put energy absorbing crumble zones into the car before I worried about radial tires. I've got bias tires on my car and it does not bother me. And, yes, I drive it. And I drive it in the rain occasionally. You have to make sure that old vacume wiper works correctly sometime don't you?<P>The antique car hobby spans a lot of ground. It turns out that one of the goals of the AACA is to preserve originality. There are other groups with different goals.<P>There are some limits to originality based on legal and financial concerns: My state requires a rear reflector on all cars (two after 1958). My car did not come with one. So I put on one that looks like it might have been put on by the original owner.<P>It is not reasonable for a single person to tool up to produce an exact match of a tire if it is not being made today. So you allow the closest available. (I hope that when my current tires wear out some one will be reproducing the correct Goodyear All-Weather tire in my size.)<P>These exceptions from originality are very reasonable despite the goal of keeping cars authentic. And they are allowed by the AACA.<P>Driving a car on a frequent basis is a different thing than competitive showing of a car. There are those in the AACA who are not into judged shows and have their cars set up for touring.<P>Some people happen to like both. Many of those have more than one car: A show car and a touring car. There are even a few that successfully show a touring car. The work it takes to keep a frequently driven car in show condition limits the number of people who do that.<P>So you make your choice: Is perceived safety and definite improvement in ride comfort for driving worth the points lost in competitive show judging? You pay your money and take your choice.<P>For myself, the DPC looks really good (assuming I ever enter a show at all). In the meantime I will keep those bias tires on the car while I rack up the mileage on tours and occasional around town driving.
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But show cars with seat belts are okay! Radial tires have been around for quite some time. What is the safety benefit of 12v over 6v? And paint jobs and rechroming done better than what ever left the factory is okay though! Sometime driving sensibly does not preclude a driver from needing to stop as quick as possible on a wet surface, sometimes people do pull out when it will put your vehicle and your passengers in harms way. Glad you've never experienced this. I also have no problem with a judge crawling under my car if need be, as long as the rules state so and all other cars get crawled under that need be, and not done selectively. That's my huble opinion.

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Roadmaster ~ If the AACA is so off base in its rules, and you find them so offensive, perhaps you belong to the wrong organization. There are plenty of hot rod clubs that will adequately fill your need to modify. rolleyes.gif" border="0 ~ hvs

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I believe I've pissed off some people because they don't agree with me. What a sad day it is when someone voices an opinion and is asked to leave the organization because of non-agreement. You have yet to answer the facts of seat belt usage and it being allowed. I just think radial tires are more important to safety that seat belts ( especially lap only systems ). As far as saying the rules are offensive, I believe you are putting words out that I did not say, but that isn't surprising coming from you. I expect this from you from reading many of your previous replies to people. Sure did not get any responses discounting the safety factors I brought up. I guess in this organization it is unheard of to disagree with you hvs. I'm sure you would have been a good dictator. But alas, I will not leave the club under your reasons, as ignorant as they are. Please feel free to respond though. I won't ask you to leave the club, I'm not that pompous and self-serving. Thanks for the discussion, maybe it coud be moved to another heading so as to get a response on the tire issue that has been brought up, unless hvs is also the one in charge of that. shocked.gif" border="0

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Whoah, easy big fella. Roadmaster you bring up some good points but your comparisons are off base. Since you say no one has addressed the safety of tires and the comparisons that you express I will.<BR>1. Seat belts - Most states have a LAW that say you must wear them- NO states say you must use radial tires. <BR>2.Stopping while driving less than 60 miles per hour. I guarantee a car with disc brakes and bias tires can stop faster than drum brakes and radials. So should we allow disc brakes with ABS on a 40 ford?? My point- get statistics of how many antique cars that have crashed because they had bias tires not radials. Less than 0 ? Also no one I know that has a car that they show would drive in pouring rain or poor conditions. They pull over and wait it out. This is a show car not a daily transportation vehicle.<BR>3. You can't even compare seat belts to tires. You hit something going 20 miles and hour without a seat belt and see what happens. You want me to accept that bias tires are a death trap? I have a 69 440 GTX, 4 speed driver that I have bias tires on. I can drive it as hard as I want and never have I had a problem. (Except with a radar gun once) I doubt there few if any cars on a show field at AACA that will goes faster and stop harder than this beast. <BR>5. Sure paint and chrome is better than original, that is all there is. I can see me asking my chrome shop " Hey can you do a real poor job with the same chemicals they had in 1930." He can't, that is just what we are left with. Paint- count of points for nice paint, Yep, that will help the hobby.<BR>6. I drive my 69 road runner convertible on nice days. When I do, I have different tires, different carb, different wheels, diff. ballast resistor. When I show it I take this stuff off and put on the original stuff. Do I do this for safety sake? Nope, I do it because it is original. Showin is one thing and goin is another. Like someone else said, you pay your money and take your chances. It is not like someone doesn't know that radial tires are going to get hit with deductions. No surprise here.

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Roadmaster, Please get a hold of yourself! There's no reason to come busting on HVS. All HVS is saying is, if your discontent with the rules of the AACA, then there are other clubs out there and you may find one that makes you happy. I agree! It is very clear that the only one getting upset on here, is you. <BR>All I was attempting to do, was to ask you some questions as to why the club should accept the radial tire on the judging field other than for the sake of the comfort ride. Just some questions is all I had for you as it seemed you had knowledge on tire manufactoring (other than ride and handling) which is commom knowledge and most of us are aware of. Please tell us more, as you say you have tons of information on this subject. I as a member of AACA would like to know this from you, even though you said we don't want to hear it. I don't want or am asking for any arguement. If you want change, them explain why the AACA should.<BR>It is not for any of us to defend the bias tire to you, you started by saying "They" (meaning, I take it the AACA) needs to find some common sense over the radial issue. Again, please educate us, or is that all you have to offer?<BR>Rick

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Roadmaster ~ I have carefully re-read my previous post and for the life of me cannot see what has you so all fired steamed up. What is wrong with saying that perhaps you might be happier somewhere else if you find AACA rules so distasteful. I didn't tell you to leave, or that you are not wanted or anything like that. I only said that hot rod clubs fulfill the need a person might have to modify an antique vehicle.<P>Now if your problem is that you just have an overwhelming need to mouth off and pick a fight with AACA, go ahead. Someone might listen.<P>If you really want to be constructive, you might consider asking the moderator to transfer all of this to a separate thread so that it doesn't interfere with the valuable discussion you started on chassis judging.<P>hvs

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I personally have no problem with radial tires not being allowed without deductions. The whole point of AACA judging, as I see it, is to ensure the car has been restored to as close to factory original as possible. I realize that seat belts are allowed and I understand why - I personally would not pull out of my driveway without wearing one; however, in all honesty I would prefer that there be a small deduction on them just because they are not original (well prior to the 60's I guess) but I have no problem with them being allowed under the present rules. (correct me if I am wrong ronbarn, but I am sure that while they are allowed that they are judged for quality ???) <P>I guess my main thing is that some folks like to drive their cars and some like to show them and some like both; however, if you are going to drive your car and still show it, be prepared to accept any deductions that you may get based upon changes to the originality of the car done for your pleasure. This is why I have show cars and driver cars and the two never mix (except in the DP class)<P>BOB<p>[ 05-10-2001: Message edited by: oldmotorcycles ]

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I see oldmotorcycles point. It is just a sore spot with me that I get carried away. I did get some info on the safety differences but it is not really worth posting it. It is about the sidewalls flexibility and the handling differences. I guess my frustration is not having enough money to show and win, and drive for fun. My apologies for my outburst. cool.gif" border="0

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