Teetor-Hartley Engines Again (Still??)

[Bud Tierney]

My Buda V8/Pilot?? thread turned into a T-H thread, so decided to start a new one under the correct name...

I found a T-H file, apparently from 2007 when some then T-H posts piqued my fickle curiosity; included was a quite confused engine list... Unfortunately. in those years I seldom listed what websites said what, so I have a list of 25 or so engines/engine variations, many with b/s and many with conflicting b/s and/or question marks, obviously from differing online sources as none of my old catalogs has full b/s for any T-H engine (I have 5--count 'em, five--b/s combinations for the "T")...

Bores on my list range from 3" to 41/2, except for a 4 Cyl referred to as the "only numbered "T"", a 53/8x51/2...since I have T17, T18, T19 on my list, that ID was either a mistake or an early "T"...

Does anyone have, or know of, a definitive or reliable engine b/s list?

I also found a note to search TEETER, but no page mentioning it; maybe something will turn up there...

EXPLOR: On my machine, your tag looks like "II"; I assume it's actually "TT"?? If so, or whatever it is, I show 41/2x6, with a question ma4k, for the "TT"...

Any comments appreciated...Many thxx!! Bud

[1912Staver]

Hi Bud, I will look at all my Staver Chicago material and supply as much information as possible. I have a few sales catalogs and they state the bore and stroke for most of the Teetor's they used. Unfortunately they never state the model designation of the engine. In fact it is not until the last year of Staver production {1914} that they admit the engines are supplied by Teetor , previously they more or less implied the engines were their own product.

Greg in Canada

[1912Staver]

I have never heard any mention of Teetor -Hartleys being used in trucks. Teetor was a fairly small company who it would seem only originally got in to the engine business at the request of American {underslung} . They marketed their engines pretty much entirely to regional ,upper middle class and beyond , smallish production makes. American, Staver, Pilot, Auburn, McFarlan and select others.

I don't think they had the resources or the interest to compete in the much more cost conscious Truck market. They simply lacked the economy of scale to go head to head with the likes of Buda, Wisconsin, Waukesha, and Continental to name only the real "biggies". Lots of others tried ,but most soon failed.

As the days of being able to sell almost any automobile or engine {the early and mid teens}; evolved into the much more competitive late teens , Teetor saw the writing on the wall and diversified out of the engine line. Luckily they had good a good product, and a talented engineering staff, and became one of the big players in the Piston Ring market. If they had stayed an engine builder the story would have probably been much shorter.

If this comment appears a bit out of the blue it is because it was in response to a question about Teetor - Hartleys used in trucks. That comment has subsequently vanished but I will leave my post up.

Greg in Canada

Edited April 24, 2015 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[1912Staver]

I may have spoken too soon regarding Teetor and trucks. I found a photo on the" Pre War Car " website of a later Teetor 6 cyl. that was reported to have been removed from a Cosmopolitan {Brockway perhaps ? } Fire truck. Anyone out there know more about this engine ? And if it looked like an O.E.M. use or a later retrofit? Owner was listed as a Mr. Jason O'Brien living in Connecticut.

Greg in Canada

Edited April 24, 2015 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[Bud Tierney]

Greg: Well, they came close to the truck business---I ran across a 5-4-1918 squib re' a 31/2 Ton McFarlan truck, to be built by T-H with a T-H 6cyl, but Mroz (US Trk/Comm'l Veh Ency) says "...does not appear...made it past prototype stage..."...

Interesting question as to how long T-H stayed in production of T-H tagged engines...(engine business sale referred to as in 1918)...

Squib 1-1-20: T-H purchased 40K in machine tools in 1919...

7-1919: Incptn Ansteds US Aut/m'tve Corp (holding co with T-H et al as subsidiaries) with announcement 10-9-20 (10-4-20 stock offering) including that all sub's to retain corporate identities and to function as prior to consolidation...

hearse.com piece on 1920 Luverne hearse "with T-H motor"..

3-1-21 article, Lexington full production, plant 75% capacity (one shift), with both Ansted Eng'grg and T-H Mtr Cptn plant 100% capacity producing new Ansted motor...

8-1921 10 page article: paean to Ansted/Lexington/USAC., incl desc, specs, pix of new Ansted motor for Lexingtons..

[Bud Tierney]

AArrrrgh!! Another senior moment!!!

Yes, of course, Coker Tire's fire truck engine...from memory:

Coker Tire was rebuilding the Marmon Wasp racer, which originally had a unique Marmon built t-head, long gone...

Per their rebuilding website (profusely illus with pix of car and engine work, the last time I was in it) the closest engine they could find was in an old fire truck (one small pic then on site?), reportedly or supposedly an ALF Cosmopolitan model...

Someone somewhere commented the engine looked like a T-H...

Cokers computer had mine down as a spammer, blocked out; I would ordinarily've queried alfowners and spaamfaa, but if I did I don't recall any replies...

I either moved on, or had a computer meltdown, losing everything, and when back online never got back to it...

With the rebuilding extensively documented, Coker would have info re' the engine, and, if a T-H, the fire truck it came out of...

Postings should come up Googling Coker-Marmon Wasp-Teetor Hartley

Note: some stuff did come up under Teeter-Hartly; didn't run Mroz's Teeter-Hardly...

[1912Staver]

Hi Bud, I have looked on Coker's site. There are good photos of the engine they used for their Wasp replica but it does not look like a Teetor engine. Possibly the regular A.L.F. from the fire truck they started with ? The engine on the "PRE WAR CAR" site definitely is a Teetor. It's the mono block, 6 cyl, T head with the big sweeping water outlet casting bolted to the top of the head. On the old Pilot, Davis and McFarlan thread there is an original advertising photo ; part of the advertising for a Pilot 75, of the same model of engine, {one of Kent Moore's photo's I think}. Coker's Wasp uses a 6 cyl., 2 blocks of 3, T head. I don't think Teetor ever made a T head 6 using 2 blocks of 3 cyls.,. The first Teetor 6 ; possibly built for American only, was as far as I can remember a 2 block of three engine but a L head rather than a T head. I will dig a little deeper and see if I can find a photo.

Greg in Canada

Edited April 25, 2015 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[Bud Tierney]

Searched alfowners, did find I made a 2011 query, and did get a reply from a knowledgeable member that ALF used own engines (not a specific direct answer but obviously to the best of his knowledge).

[Guest Xprefix28truck]

The TH engine that came from a Cosmopolitan is owned by Allen Wolff. He installed it in his American Underslung. Allen is a member here... I have info on TH being put into trucks. I will have to find it. It was for a government contract. After they started building them it ended in a lawsuit. Not sure if any survived.

Edited April 26, 2015 by Xprefix28truck (see edit history)

[1912Staver]

Thanks Kent, I thought someone would know more about that engine. Do you think it was an original install in the Cosmopolitan or perhaps a re-power ? Does not really matter, especially since it has found a good home in an Underslung. For some reason there has at times been some curiosity about Teetor -Hartley truck use. Perhaps someone is hoping to find one in some derelict teens truck. I understand a number of Wisconsin era Stutz's have engines that at least partly began life in F.W.D. and probably other truck's. In any event I think Teetor -Hartleys were a pretty rare thing in truck use.

Greg in Canada

[Guest Xprefix28truck]

On July 20th 1918 the Government entered into a contract with the Garford Motor Truck company for 1000 2ton trucks. On

October 23rd the government ordered another 3000 of the 2 ton trucks. Wisconsin Motor Manufacturing subcontracted the engines out to TH. The order was cancelled on November 15th 1918. As to whether any were built or survived is a good question. If you care to read the original document here is the link......

http://books.google.com/books?id=08-gAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA266&dq=teetor+hartley&hl=en&ei=Ibf6Tf-NN8-utwffkbjEDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAzgK#v=onepage&q=teetor%20hartley&f=false

[Guest Xprefix28truck]

Greg, There has never been any info found as to the original install into the Cosmopolitan. All I know is what Allen had told me in that it appeared to be factory installed..... But who knows?

[Guest Xprefix28truck]

TH has always been a very hard subject to accurately document installations. I have documents from around 1916 that state they were used in Chevorlets. Now we all know that didn't happen. Also in a 1922 engine data book they list TH engines as being used in 3 autos. The Pilot the McFarlan and Mercury. Now figure that one out..... If you go by info that is well known about the sale of the engine business, you would never think that they put TH engines in anything after the sale. That would also be incorrect. I know of a single family owned Pilot that remains all original and was built in 1921. Still has a TH engine in it...

[Guest Xprefix28truck]

This is the chassis that has the Cosmopolitan TH engine in it.

[Guest Xprefix28truck]

Greg, Just a side note.... I do now own one of the earliest TH engines along with the TH 6 cylinder. I found and purchased a single cylinder TH engine from one of the first powered inspection cars...

[1912Staver]

Kent, that's great ! One of the first along with one of the last, makes a nice pair.

Since early Teetors have been brought up , do you have any knowledge about what is probably Teetor's first automotive engine? I am referring to the 4 cyl. side valve engine that has 2 blocks of four cyls. , and cyl. tops that are individual domes. Each cyl has a fairly large round plug with a smaller hex. It is refered to in Walter Sealy's 1972 AA article covering American's history as the 1906 American engine {second model}. This would probably be the Continental engine often refered to as Teetor's start as an auto engine builder. I do not think any exist today .

Even the oldest surviving American's don't feature this engine , including the conventional chassis Roi De Belges touring that is generally described as a 1906. Seely's article states that the initial {late 1905 / early 1906 } batch of Teetor engines would have only amounted to 25 or 30 examples, and it is possible this was the total number built of this type.

Greg in Canada

Edited April 26, 2015 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[Bud Tierney]

(1) If I recall correctly, there's another piece of that War Dept claim in which T-H claims they were unable to perform only because, under the Wisc-T-H subcontract/agmt Wisc was to provide certain jigs (and patterns?), and that Wisc negligently or deliberately failed to provide them...this would appear to mean T-H never got into production.

(2) Std Cat shows a Mercury, built in (if actually built) Belfast, NY., 1922, announced with a 4 and a 6, that apparently died that same year...

There's also a Mercury industrial tractor, a smaller rubber tired unit if, again, I recall correctly, but don't know when it was produced, altho it'd hardly be in an automobile list...

(3) the low production of the original engines may've been the basis for the "handbuilt engine line" comment...

(4) I've assumed some of the comments re' providing engines for Chev, Packard etc could be confusions between actual T-H engines and their piston ring production...

(4) XP, would you advise what is on you 6cyl's tag?? It looks like (on my set) "II", but I assume it's actually "TT", for which I have 41/2x6...

[Guest Xprefix28truck]

Bud, My tag is an "H". Kind of looks like "II" but it does have the crossbar for the "H". The lawsuit was for $230,000 dollars to cover tooling and inventory. I agree that they probably never built any....

[Bud Tierney]

Kent: lost in all these T-H threads, but since all roads lead to Rome...trying to rebuild engine list to ID sources...slow...

(1) on 2011 engine list posting find differences: 32 catalog shows

AA as 33/4

H, H18, H19, 19H as 31/8...original emails lost in meltdown, probably my mistake...

(2) conceptcars Am'cn U'slng has 1910 Traveler with 4Cyl 53/8x55/8 50Hp T-H...closely matches my list, but not original source as has no "only numbered "T" comment...

(3) re' the story of the restorer restoring three Americans in return for one to keep, were those engines ever ID'd as to model, b/s???

(4) a 1930 wrist pin catalog lists a "19T" (McFarlan) in the engine list section; under McF it lists a "19", 1918-21 with 6cyl 41/2 "own" engine...all specs listed match EXC eng list and make list are off 1/16 length...But eng list has three Teetors, and specs in engine list and make list are ALL off by 1/16 (???!!!)

(5) anything on the Teetors in the first Lawter tractors, or the "20 foot boat with 40HP Teetor" in the 1915 Hegerstown paper?? (search oldmarineengine=zero)...

Will be digging more...

[Guest cben09]

When did Teetor become Teetor-Hartley,,,,I see no Hartley markings

on my 4x6",,,,1913 engine ,, u/tube /google [ 1913 Pilot ]

for a vid of car running,,,Cheers,,Ben

[1912Staver]

I don't remember the precise date, but the Teetor family and Mr. Hartley were a group effort from nearly the beginning. The Teetors were the technical / hands on part and Hartley was the money backer. It's more detailed in Marjorie Teetor Meyer's book about her father , Ralph Teetor. The engines were often called Teetor ; but sometimes by the full Teetor Hartley, and at least once Teeter {official advertising}.

Greg in Canada

Edited May 1, 2015 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[Guest cben09]

Hi,,Can someone put a link to ''1913 Pilot" a vid I made of

Pilot-Teetor details,,and a running car,,

Showing startup details etc,,Cheers,,Ben

[Bud Tierney]

BEN:

(1) Welcome to the quagmire---I first assumed, looking at engine stuff, that Teeter and Teetor were misspellings...later Kent posted about a legal? name change (maybe too many jokes about teeter-totter engines?..

There's a railway bicycle inspection "car" ad headed "Hartley Teeter", or maybe Hartley & Teeter? (with illus of two-seat and one seat "cars") at the bottom of which is Teeter-Hartley Motor Co...or was it Light Insp etc? Anyway, it's a mess...and then there's poor Hartley/Hardly etc...apparently in RR lingo anything that runs on rails is a "car"...

(2) does your 4x6 have a tag, and if so, would you advise what's on it---I'm trying to reconcile existing engines with the lettering system listed in parts catalogs...

KENT: does your H tag have bore/stroke?? Should be 31/8xsomething (I believe the gasket catalogs 3x5 is incorrect, as other ref's are 31/8)...

[Guest cben09]

Hi Bud [or is it Budd] haha,,hope you can stand the humor,,still,,

,,,On the serious side

I assume my engine to be the 60 Hp [by ALAM rating]

there were minor diferences,cant recall for now

I have ,,,somewhere,,,,a Pilot catalogue,,showing differences,,

It is a single block casting,w/6 cylenders all the intake ports

cast/cored in that casting,,masterpiece of patternaking!!! !

The block ads to the rigiddity of the crankcase,,

It is a T head,,Like Pierce and others of that period the head is not

removable,,the valve acess is through screw plugs and acess to

springs is through door/covers on the side TEETOR nicely cast in,,

THERE IS NO BRASS TAG,,,sorry,,but a few numbers here 'n there,,

The cone clutch is a pleasure to use,,It is happy at 45mph,50s pushin it

It is a big engine to start on the crank,,but it responds peacefully

and behaves well,,

In years past I have driven a 5n3/8xx5 1/2 American,,also a fun ride

The bearings on both these engines are huge,,

All for now,,,Ben

[1912Staver]

I am primarily taking Walter Seeley's 1972 AA article as a source for this rundown of the early Teetors.

These are all 2 blocks of 2 Cyl. and L head with one exception , the 2 block of 2, I.O.E. "special"

Ist 4cyl , 4 9/16 X 5 , 35-40 HP. This is the Continental sourced, domed cylinder engine . As far as I know none survive.

2nd. type , 5 x 5, 40-50 HP. This is the engine that Fred Tone designed once he joined American in 1906. Walter Seeley states Tone was the designer and Teetor the builder in his article. Seeley talked to Fred Tone's son and had access to Tone's archive when researching the Deemer cars. I don't think the Teetors had the ability to design high performance {for the day} automotive engines, but Tone certainly did. This 1906 engine was the basis for Teetor right up to 1911.

3rd. type, 5 1/4 x 5 1/2 , 50 Hp. This was the special high power engine that was used in American's special roadster. The oldest Deemer car uses this engine. It seems to be available as a option until about 1909

4th. type, 5 3/4 x 5 1/2 , 70 Hp. Intake over exhaust valve. This is the real odd one. It seems to be the engine used for American's racing effort , and probably a few very special road cars as well. I haven't found a lot of information on this one but I am still looking. I don't think any survive.

5th. type, 5 3/8 x 5 1/2, 50 Hp. this became the standard American engine and is used on most of the regular production American's in 1909, 10 and 11.

in 1911 Fred Tone left American and his influence on Teetor probably ended as well. for 1912 the Teetor engines went thru quite a change.

Greg in Canada

Edited May 2, 2015 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[1912Staver]

It has come to my attention that there is also a conventional "L" head, 5 3/4 x 5 1/2, 60 Hp. engine. This probably replaced the 5 1/4 x 5 1/2 50 Hp. as the high performance / larger car engine in about 1909 onward to at least 1911. Possibly developed at the same time as the I.O.E. racing engine of the same bore and stroke. I will call it the Type 4 and the I.O.E type 4a. Types are my own designation and have no basis in American or Teetor use.

Greg in Canada

[1912Staver]

Just in case people get the impression Teetor's history is as simple as a list of Bore and Stroke sizes , it's not. There were also engines built with built in "belly pans" {the crankcase casting was extended out to the frame rails along the full length of the casting.} and others that just have the heavy mounting arms projecting to the frame members. As well at least one air cooled I.O.E. engine was built, photos of it appear in the offerings of one of the main Ebay Lit. suppliers . (search American Underslung to find Mr. Miller's reprints of his extensive American / Teetor archive} The early history is quite complicated, and is even more difficult to sort out given the very few surviving cars and engines. Bud, I doubt any of your catalog listings go back far enough to include these early Gen. engines.

Greg in Canada

[Bud Tierney]

Yes, my only catalog that covers a few (very few) of 08-09s and some of the teens is the 1917 Burd ring catalog, and it's set up by ring size--like "41/4 bore with 1/4" rings", then listing engines, cars, trucks, tractors using that size, the only other info being number of rings used. Can be helpful but mostly frustrating--so near (probably? in there) but so far (no way to be certain!!)...only three T-Hs are listed, the largest being the T-H T17 6cyl 41/2 bore using 5 3/16 rings...

Interesting about the cast iron "belly pan"...being a city boy I had to be advised by Ag types that while this was used in some Industrial power unit installations, some early tractors had no "frame/chassis" in front for the engine to bolt to...the bolted in engine with the cast "oil pan" became part of the structure of the tractor itself, if I'm explaining that adequately...

Had a listing from a tractor ref book from when looking for Ag engine ID-- a Lawton 20-40 (Lawton Tractor Co, Newcasltle IN, moved to St Marys, OH) 1913 or so, using an unidentified Teetor, no b/s, apparently replaced 1914-16 by a Wauk 43/4x61/4, at which time it was de-rated to an 18-38 (and died)...

That de-rating would appear to mean the Teetor was larger CID or, at least, a large one...the early tractors with vertical inlines were almost always 4s for the low RPM torque...

[1912Staver]

Hi Bud, The belly pan engines are as far as I can tell unique to the conventional chassis {non underslung} Americans. All the underslungs used a subframe style frame and a realitively narrow crankcase with shortish mounting arms and no pans. Also the crankcase castings are Aluminum on all except the final Gen. of Teetors as nearly as I can determine. In addition when I re-examined the photos of the air cooled 4 Cyl. I noticed the valve arrangement is a real odd ball; Central overhead Exhaust with a side intake, rather than the more conventional I.O.E. that the Racing underslungs are reported to use. Anyone have a photo of a water cooled I.O.E. Teetor?

Greg in Canada

[Guest Xprefix28truck]

The name was officially changed to "Teetor Hartley Motor Company" in 1914. You will find much discrepancy in the engine numbering system. The more I dug into it, the less it made sense. The company legally changed it's name again in 1917 to the "Indiana Piston Ring Company". The engines were still being labeled "Teetor Hartley" after the legal name change. In some publications things were listed as "Teetor Hartley" and then in some others it was "Hartley Teetor". As well as sometimes being "Teeter" with the "er" instead of "or". From what I understand the Lawter that was built in New Castle, supposedly with the TH engine, never really seemed to be built. I live in New Castle and have tried many things to find out more info on Lawter. New Castle historical society has virtually nothing. I have a friend that does own a Lawter that was built in Ohio. More to follow.