R W Burgess Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 (edited) http://www.thewholecar.com/1930-bentley-blue-train-recreation Edited April 20, 2015 by R W Burgess (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
30DodgePanel Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 Definitely museum quality. Exterior upholstery ? :eek: WOWAny idea what material was used on the exterior of the body on the cowl and doors ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Peterson Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 Of the 350 cars I'd put in my museum (after winning the mega-billion-dollar lotto), that car would be right near the top of the list in desirability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Peterson Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 Definitely museum quality. Exterior upholstery ? :eek: WOWAny idea what material was used on the exterior of the body on the cowl and doors ?The body frame is covered with muslin over chicken wire with a thin layer of cotton batting used to span large open areas, and over this a top layer of fabric, usually a pigmented synthetic leather. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BillP Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 And that is how to spend money properly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
30DodgePanel Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 Looking at the back seat photo I couldn't help but think "Drinking and driving in style" ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 ABSOLUTLY BEAUTIFUL! Not only driven on the wrong side, but gauges are upside and backwards. Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 There were special fabrics made for car bodies. Tolle Souple, Rexine, Fabrikoid were some of the brands. Today you would use some type of vinyl top material. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 The details on that car are exquisite, whomever did the restoration is at the top of their game......or is it whoever? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Peterson Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 That's actually a replica, as opposed to "restoration." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 Yikes, I missed that it was a replicated car....still, great craftsmanship..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 That's actually a replica, as opposed to "restoration." I like that, a good word for clone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Dobbin Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 Would that "replica"be welcome on the AACA Glidden Tour? Eligible for DPC? Maybe see it in the AACA Museum? Absolutely beautiful, a work of art. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 You guys puzzle me sometimes. Gorgeous car, but admittedly fabricated out of nothingness and only an approximation of the original, yet everyone goes nuts. But someone modifies an old Chevy, and the pitchforks and torches come out. Why is this car deserving of our praise (spectacular craftsmanship aside) and other fake and/or modified cars are not? I see quite a few non-period parts on that car; are such "upgrades" OK as long as they're beautiful or someone spent a fortune on them? Are we now interpreting the intent of the builder? Why are modifications to make the car easier to drive, safer, and more reliable OK with a vintage Bentley and not OK with a 1968 Chevrolet? Was the Bentley inherently unreliable or dangerous when it was new? Why is nobody arguing that the original components were just fine as they were and replacing them makes the Bentley builder an idiot who clearly doesn't know how to make an old car run properly? What if the guys at Greasemonkey Garage had built it for a TV show?Now, don't get me wrong, I'm just playing devil's advocate here and yanking your chains all in good fun. I agree with all of you that the car is absolutely stunning. I'm just wondering if lots of money and an incredible result are all it takes to make everyone forget the AACA's core mission, a drum that gets beaten pretty regularly on this forum, and lesser modified cars are treated pretty unkindly around these parts... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsancle Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 Definetly well done but I have little interest for anything that does not have real history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 Alsancle, you have my vote. Bentley never built a straight 8. Marvellous as this recreation is, if I had that kind of money I would want it to be more authentic.https://stevemckelvie.wordpress.com/2015/01/27/bentley-and-the-blue-train/Ray<script type="text/javascript" src="safari-extension://com.ebay.safari.myebaymanager-QYHMMGCMJR/4dd8d9fb/background/helpers/prefilterHelper.js"></script> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 I saw it a Amelia.......I was not impressed. A replica done on a modern chassis. The build quality was first rate. Interestingly, it didnt sell at the auction. It probably was bid to half of what they had in it. (About 450k if my memory is correct.) Why not put all that effort and money into a real car? Too each his own, but the fact it didnt find a new owner at such a large event speaks to the fact that in todays world you can build almost anything you can dream up if you have the money. I does not mean any one else will want it or pay for it. I rather have a real Ford T than a "fake" WO Bently. Just my two cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Bond Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 Fabulous - but it reminds me of a three dram story - so, if you've got a minute (or 9 or ten) let me tell you about an episode occurring in the Scottish Highlands back in the early 70s. The tale is as related to me by a dear old friend, Hector Cormack - also known to many of us as Hector the Collector. Hector had one of the finest automobilia collections existing at the time, and provide me with a wealth of knowledge about motoring's rarest artifacts. But I digress - Hector and I were on a rally in Scotland, and had pulled in for the night at a very nice B&B that has been the gate-keeper's cottage at a large estate, very much like Downton Abbey. After an amazing dinner, we retired to the lounge and brought out the evenings refreshment - Single Malt Scotch of course. (Gads, I hear bagpipes even just thinking about this!). Hector at one time drove a Speed-Six Bently with a fabric body by Wymann. It was a beautiful demon of a car with beautiful dark green fabric coachwork. It was in just such a setting, while on a rally in the Highlands, that he and fellow club members had landed for the night in an old castle, that had become a B&B. Cars were parked alongside a fence near where the windows were so everyone could keep an eye on their vehicles, open the windows and listen for curious prowlers. After a couple of wee drams however, not a sound was to be heard save for the snoring of the contented motorists. The next morning, after a bit of a sleep-in, everyone enjoyed a fabulous breakfast, then packed their bags for the days coming run. Upon approaching the cars to dust them off, all seemed well, until Hector went around to the other side of the car - his screeching probably woke the dead in the nearby churchyard. It seems that the empty field next to where the cars were parked was home to a small heard of goats. All evening long, they had stretched their necks over the fence and feasted on the fabric bodied car. The had succeeded in ripping off great hunks of the fabric body, and were still chewing on their "treat" when Hector's screams scared them away. It most likely was the glue used on the coachwork that attracted them. Of course the car was repaired in due course, and continued to participate in club events until it was traded years later for some antique motorcycles. It normally took at least the second glass Scotch to get Hector loosened up enough to tell this tale, and by the time he was finished, the third dram was history. So, if you have a lust for one of these fabric bodied vehicles - just be careful where you park it.Terry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R W Burgess Posted April 20, 2015 Author Share Posted April 20, 2015 (edited) If you guys do not want to see this I can easily delete the thread. Your choice??Thanks Terry. A little humor is what this thread needed. I always appreciate hearing your stories. Like some people tell me Terry, YOU should write a book!!! Edited April 20, 2015 by R W Burgess (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 I am enjoying this thread! Along with other boring old so and so's, I have been arguing for years that the practise of discarding original coach built closed bodies found on vintage Bentleys in favour of replacement replica "Le Mans" open 4 seat touring types, has been a disaster from an historical perspective. You guys don't need me to tell you how much more one of these open Bentleys sell for when compared with a closed type and the lust for cash is what has been the motivator. In a strange sort of way, then, this total fabrication is to my mind a far better option as no Vintage Bentleys need to have suffered in it's creation. Whether W.O. would have approved of a straight 8 is somewhat doubtful as he preferred the natural balance of a six; although I suspect Wolf Barnarto might have gone for it, but I suppose that is something we will never know. Ray. <script type="text/javascript" src="safari-extension://com.ebay.safari.myebaymanager-QYHMMGCMJR/4dd8d9fb/background/helpers/prefilterHelper.js"></script> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Peterson Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 Of the 350 cars I'd put in my museum (after winning the mega-billion-dollar lotto), that car would be right near the top of the list in desirability.I meant, of course, the real thing. Tho, in deference to Ed, I would much rather have this replica W.O. than a Model T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 I was lucky enough to have exposure to 3 litre, 4 1/2 blower, Speed 6 and 8 litre WO Bentleys by my car mentors growing up. It's gotta be the real thing to light my fire. I vote for the Speed 6, yes it's too big....... but it is VERY cool. Here is the Bentley I grew up on....... it was interesting to get to help with the build....... the motor is incredible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
30DodgePanel Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 (edited) Wayne, your point is well taken. After all, the premise of your original heading spoke to the "polished look" and not the originality. Although it's a replica it is still is a gorgeous piece of machinery and regardless of what it will or will not sell for is a mute point in my opinion. If you have money to burn then keep the fire stoked..The craftsmanship is to be admired at the very least although posting on a purist website is sure to draw the critics in all of us, but that's par for the territory is it not?... Edited April 20, 2015 by 30DodgePanel (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Roth Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 .... still, the workmanship seems exquisite ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 If you guys do not want to see this I can easily delete the thread. Your choice??Thanks Terry. A little humor is what this thread needed. I always appreciate hearing your stories. Like some people tell me Terry, YOU should write a book!!! Wayne, it's just because this is in the General section of AACA forum and you are a dyed in the wool AACA member always sticking to the core AACA belief's that maybe some of us didn't expect your contribution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Samuel Cuthbert Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 Hello Gents, A quick introduction if I may? I publish that little website and noticed some new visitors in my metrics!I'm an Aussie that has wound up being based on the border of Italy and Switzerland, and decided to make the most of his proximity to some glorious classic cars here. I began networking with owners and photographing as many fine vehicles as I could, choosing those with exquisite details or an interesting background, to write about on a website I would then publish. I peppered my own shoots in amongst some of the most interesting auction listings from around the world, so that readers that enjoyed my work could also be kept up to date with the goings on of the more remarkable automobiles going under the hammer at RM Sotheby's, Bonhams, etc. It's a new thing, but somehow my readership has exploded (with perspective of course, I'm just a one-man operation here) in the past few months and our articles keep finding enthusiasts such as yourselves.So thanks to Mr Burgess for linking our piece, and to those folks participating in the thread, debating the merits of this recreation. It's really neat to have you enjoy the site.I simply find the subject in question far too beautiful and well-crafted to possibly criticize, but I do understand that you lot are quite a different crowd from my typical audience. I'm going for more of a casual vibe, one that you could show a friend who primarily gets his automotive information from "Top Gear" (RIP) and have them take something away from the experience, but mostly just be entertained. Introducing classic cars to a new, younger audience, means keeping things light and squeezing in some pertinent details when possible. I'm going to operate under the wild assumption that most of you would probably enjoy something a little more authoritative and educational, so apologies you do browse other articles and find things a bit too laid back. So, although I'm sure any criticism from this crowd would be backed by a generally very informed opinion, I suppose I just want to clarify how I personally see this vehicle. I come across non-original vehicles all the time on my quest for interesting subjects to introduce readers to, and try to classify them in my mind into the four "R's". These are just personal labels, not definitions, but I think it might go a ways to explaining why I cut this subject some slack.Restoration - Something many of you are no doubt familiar with. An original vehicle being restored to its former self. Original or factory correct parts and materials if needed, and perhaps a coat of paint. True as it can be, if you are going to go about bringing a barn find back to life.Replica/Reproduction - Another commonly used pair of terms. A car built outside of factory specification, aiming to become as close to an exact copy of a model as possible aesthetically, with sometimes dramatically different underpinnings. In some cases, quite incredible effort and engineering go into creating a copy that is indeed very close to the original, but clearly, if built by anyone but the original manufacturer, it's always going to be labelled a replica.Restomod - Taking a classic body and combining it with modern running gear. Not trying to copy something, or attain any sort of sense of originality - simply to have classic styling with modern performance.Recreation- My final classification, the one most applicable to this Blue Train special, and the rarest of these non-original labels I mentally place on cars. With these, I suppose you have to define them as a hybrid of a replica and a restomod. Here, an enormous effort has been undertaken by Petersen to build a vehicle that looks to be a faithful reproduction of the Gurney-Nutting coupe bodywork, but they have opted for a fair amount of artistic license with regards to the underpinnings, engine choice, and interior details. Clearly, convenience, performance, cost, and the wishes of clients to have some modern luxuries included, may have meant they decided to build something that is not intended to be directly judged against an original car.Just my thoughts, and by no means am I invested in these opinions, if anyone would like to offer their own take on those terms, or challenge my way of classifying these non-original cars, I'm all ears. I'd like to think that I will be covering many more cars of interest to folks like yourselves, and would appreciate some insight into the way you look at these types of cars.A final word, in case you have an international reach here - if any of your members will be visiting my part of the world (I'm down the road from Lake Como) with a historically significant or simply beautiful automobile, I would very much like to discuss spending an afternoon with you to document it in typical "The Whole Car" fashion. My contact is below.Thank you, Samuel Cuthberteditor@thewholecar.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 Welcome to the forum, Samuel. You are a lucky so and so. May I suggest that you add another category to your list - that of conservation. Over the past 25 years, I have endeavoured to conserve rather than restore the originality of my car. This means repairing original materials rather than replacing them. The result will never produce "as new" finishes and is very time consuming to get it looking natural. The idea is not to remove every imperfection but, rather, appreciate the gentle patination that comes with age and use but at the same time ensure good mechanical condition.Just a suggestion. Ray.<script type="text/javascript" src="safari-extension://com.ebay.safari.myebaymanager-QYHMMGCMJR/4dd8d9fb/background/helpers/prefilterHelper.js"></script> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Samuel Cuthbert Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 See you made me scratch my head there Ray, because on first read, I thought you had misunderstood that I was just trying to classify "non original" cars as per Mr Burgess' thread title. But then I wondered if you carried the view that conservation of a car with repairs using original materials, although admirable (and ideal in your eyes), would nevertheless still remove it from being classified as original - because it had been repaired. Is that the case? I would definitely have considered a car like yours, that had been treated as described above, as an original car. But then I'm certainly no authority on originality, so I don't know how technical this definition seeks to be regarding historic cars. Perhaps you would enlighten me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Peterson Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 Welcome to the AACA forum, Samuel. And thank you for your very well thought-out post. The "Blue Train" Bentley is indeed one of the most beautiful cars in the world, real or otherwise. Lake Como, is one of the most beautiful places I've ever been to. You are a very blessed man to live in that area. I Hope to return some day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R W Burgess Posted April 20, 2015 Author Share Posted April 20, 2015 So thanks to Mr Burgess for linking our piece, and to those folks participating in the thread, debating the merits of this recreation. It's really neat to have you enjoy the site.Samuel Cuthberteditor@thewholecar.comWelcome to our AACA Forums Samuel. It's always amazing to me to find out who is watching and listening to our ramblings. I forwarded your story from a e-mail sent to me, and thought it appropriate to post on our web site. Please stay in touch with us.Wayne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 Wayne, your point is well taken. After all, the premise of your original heading spoke to the "polished look" and not the originality. Although it's a replica it is still is a gorgeous piece of machinery and regardless of what it will or will not sell for is a mute point in my opinion. If you have money to burn then keep the fire stoked..The craftsmanship is to be admired at the very least although posting on a purist website is sure to draw the critics in all of us, but that's par for the territory is it not?... I am glad we are having fun with this, but Wayne only posted a LINK, Not the article, so I think technically a correct post. Real thing, clone, replica, whatever, a well done beautiful car! Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 (edited) Samuel. Your coverage is excellent and obviously popular. I simply wondered if you might consider widening the field to differentiate between cars that have been restored; those that are original, and those that are conserved. To my mind you can have a 'restored' car which may look 'new'; a totally original car which may be unusable and pretty rough, and one that has been conserved which is different again. Not many cars receive the full conservation treatment unless they are exceptionally rare or important because the process is so time consuming and often difficult to achieve. Saving a leather interior which is usually regarded as beyond repair, for example, is possible with the correct conservation techniques. This sort of thing is usually the preserve of a museum conservator and is seldom seen in vehicles that get much use. The best examples that I can think of are to be found amongst the earliest cars - those taking part in the annual London to Brighton Veteran car run would perhaps be a good source if you could gain access for your photographs.Just something to look out for, perhaps?Ray. <script type="text/javascript" src="safari-extension://com.ebay.safari.myebaymanager-QYHMMGCMJR/4dd8d9fb/background/helpers/prefilterHelper.js"></script><script type="text/javascript" src="safari-extension://com.ebay.safari.myebaymanager-QYHMMGCMJR/4dd8d9fb/background/helpers/prefilterHelper.js"></script> Edited April 20, 2015 by R.White (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe in Canada Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 Any different than this car here. They are both as they call them[ATTACH=CONFIG]305810[/ATTACH] in the art world either a FAKE or FORGERY. These are better names than clone, tribute, after market, reproduction or what ever name you want to call them. I also see people calling them a work of art but I have never seen a forgery or fake being in an art gallery being referred to as a master piece as these two are. In 10 years from now to me (sorry for being so brutal ) they will have the same value as my Buick $150. a ton. In any case I have a glass radiator ornament I can sell you. The signature does not have the initial R in front and the experts call it a knockoff with no real value so what is the difference????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Peterson Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 I think it requires a good artist to make a good forgery. The difference in the Bentley and the Bugatti may be in that the Bugatti probably has a fully authentic drivetrain/chassis and is aesthetically accurate inside and out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 (edited) That sounds like fighting talk there ,Joe! From what I can gather, the top end of the classic car market is full of cars for which the owners make false claims and always has been. Just how many "original" Bugatti Type 57s must there be with just one or two original components? Plenty, I can assure you!To my mind there is only a problem when a re creation or replica is claiming to be an original car with the intention of deceiving a buyer. A more cynical view might be that a fool and their money are soon parted and that anyone who falls into the trap is fair game. Either way, there is no attempt here to pass off this car as a real Bentley - let alone the original fast back that Wolf Barnarto owned and nick named the Blue Train car in deference to the speed six that he actually won the £200 bet with.Remember the 1930s' Auto Union racing car that COYS pulled from their auction at the last minute? Even the experts were taken in by that one. It turned out not to be quite what they thought it was but then the history of old racing cars can be notoriously difficult to track. So this re creation is a bit of fun. It is well executed but not to be taken seriously.Here are a couple of others.http://www.vintageracinggreen.com/racing_green/racing-green-cars/b-special-blue-trainRay.<script type="text/javascript" src="safari-extension://com.ebay.safari.myebaymanager-QYHMMGCMJR/4dd8d9fb/background/helpers/prefilterHelper.js"></script> Edited April 20, 2015 by R.White (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Roth Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 With some very rare cars, only three or four were originally built, and all seventy-three still exist..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 With some very rare cars, only three or four were originally built, and all seventy-three still exist.....Absolutely, Marty!!<script type="text/javascript" src="safari-extension://com.ebay.safari.myebaymanager-QYHMMGCMJR/4dd8d9fb/background/helpers/prefilterHelper.js"></script> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hudsy Wudsy Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 I find it somewhat reassuring that there are still folks somewhere on the face of the earth who can produce, or reproduce, if you prefer, true automotive craftsmanship. There are areas of endeavor (i.e., some types of sculpture) where they term "lost art" is used earnestly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1937hd45 Posted April 20, 2015 Share Posted April 20, 2015 Wayne, your photos will not open so I can't coment on this car. For the record, the real Blue Train Bentley is one of the finiest looking cars of that vintage IMO. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R W Burgess Posted April 20, 2015 Author Share Posted April 20, 2015 http://www.thewholecar.com/1930-bentley-blue-train-recreationBob, you should be able to click on this website above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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