Does anyone have a clear span 50' by 60' garage?

[auburnseeker]

I posted over on the Garage journal looking for ideas on building a new garage.

We bought a newer larger home which came with a 28x50 clear span garage.

I have 2 garages, a 24 by 24 at one house, a 24 by 28 at the other house and a 40 by 40 Shop which is basically 2 -20' by 40' bays where I have my parts business.

The eventual goal is to get everything on the new property which is just over 7 acres and sell the other 3. To do this I'm going to need a bigger garage than the 28 by 50 which will become my workshop. What I want to build, ultimately is a storage building to work on car projects in. More storage/ display room than workshop. I've been looking around. Seems 50 by 60 might be a good fit. I would like to know if anyone has a garage this size and if so how is it for storage and layout. I was originally thinking of one center 12 foot by 12 foot door. Possibly even one at each gable end. The thought is to leave the center open and park cars along the outside wall pointed in so I could access any car at any time without having one boxed in by a dead carcass I just took apart and is waiting on parts.

I would love to see pictures of a garage this size with cars in it to get a sense of how much room there will be.

If anyone has built something recently I would also like to know rough costs. I would like a 14 foot outside wall, 6 on 12 pitch, Asphalt roof with a 2 foot overhang. Wood siding would be great. It will have a cement floor and insulation eventually as it will be heated. I'm not against a steel frame. Not crazy about steel siding but It's not entirely out of the picture either.

I found a warehouse type building that seems reasonable and even larger than I was thinking (always better right) but installed price with concrete and electric may put it out of my price range. Here is the link. The Warehouse 72 - Barn Pros

I'm unfortunately going to probably have to turn a couple of my cars into a building but without the building you can't really have the old cars. Especially here in the North East.

Does anyone have any ideas or suggestions? The garage journal is pretty big and busy. I noticed my newbie post was a page back the first day with no real response.

[alsancle]

If you search the garage journal you will find everything you will ever want to know as just about everything has been covered. However, it requires leg work on your part. You won't get much traction with a "what should I do" thread as there are many guys that are dreaming so those threads get ignored.

The building you posted looks awesome. My only thought was to make it look like that and not the industrial building that it actually is requires some expensive siding work that the one in the picture seems to have.

My other comment is that you will need multiple access doors and the heating cost with that much space will be tremendous, even at 50 degrees. Also, can I store some cars in it when it is done .

[alsancle]

Looking at that website they have some neat garages for what looks like reasonable prices. The issue I have with the steel buildings is that if you are putting it up in a residential environment, you need to spend money on the siding and roof so that it doesn't look like an industrial building.

[Guest AlCapone]

Yes I have a span of those proportions. Last fall I purchased a hobby farm that had an enormous barn ( rodeo arena ) on it. I think the open space is approximately 75 by 175 and a lean to about 20 by 175. The building is too big to properly heat without sectioning if off. With the price of cement nowadays I am glad the previous owner cemented the lean to. The ceilings in the lean to are not as high but they are still likely 20 feet tall. Because I have a very large car collection it certainly serves my purposes but then again you can get too large. I immediately installed 15 sky lights each about 5 feet by 10 feet because the hydro bill was very, very high. I think there were over 80 large wattage bulbs. I also insulated the lean to with spray on urethane insulation. I am now in the process of replacing all the windows and doors to a higher efficiency type. All in all it is fun to go for a ride inside your barn but it does have its drawbacks. ( I have placed owl decoys in the rafters to keep other birds out ). I guess my point is you can get too big. Wayne

[Guest prs519]

Simplistic, but you might want to do a scale drawing floor plan, and use some small ordinary objects to serve as cars, also to scale. It would help to visualize and plan. No wasted space that way.

Perry

[auburnseeker]

Simplistic, but you might want to do a scale drawing floor plan, and use some small ordinary objects to serve as cars, also to scale. It would help to visualize and plan. No wasted space that way.

Perry

That's what I was thinking. (my wife thought i was crazy when I mentioned doing that) I actually measured my Cord today 16 ' 6" long and 6' wide so I can transmit that into the rollable scale model I have and see how it maneuvers in the alotted space. I should do it with a couple of wide track pontiacs of the same scale and see how they handle it (they would be the biggest space hogs I can think of. )

I know heat won't be cheap but right now we are heating 2 houses we don't live in and 3 garages. One is fairly well insulated, the others not nearly as much so even a bigger building built with efficiency in mind will probably be cheaper in the long run. (The reason for less garage doors as well. They are terrible for heat loss. )

I have good southern exposure as well so properly placed windows might help out a bit. Our 3000 square foot house used about 500 gallons of fuel for the 3 coldest winter months this year and it's pretty well insulated. Seems like i should be able to get it in that ballpark or less especially if I keep the temp at 45-50. The idea is to keep stuff from freezing not have a beach party in January.

The more thought I give it, I'm really leaning toward something like the 60 by 72 kit I posted.

I can build it, as long as I can take the time away from my business. I could even deal with a bit of a jammed shop for a year as I get the garage finished up atleast to the heating stage.

We actually are just outside of town enough that I don't think the aesthetics will be a problem. The way the property is laid out I may be able to hide the building to a certain degree.

The fir siding and shingled roof will blend in better with the cedar siding and shingled roof that are on the garage and house right now. The steel building is going to look a bit out of place regardless.

A friend built a 32x40 and had the Amish construct it, had the foundation poured and wired it. It's wood sided with shingled roof. He's at the 40,000 or so range right now and still needs to pour the floor although he has plumbing to it and electricity figured in that price. I will check with his builder as well to see if they can come in with a ballpark price that might work. It would be really nice to get the structure atleast up and the roofing on it. I can put in the windows, finish it off and wire it. I just don't have a crew for the big stuff. I do have a tractor with forks so that will help.

[John_S_in_Penna]

IMPORTANT: Make sure your roof structure (trusses or rafters;

beams, columns, door headers, window headers, etc.) is designed

for the proper roof snow load. It may be 40 or more

pounds per square foot in your area.

YOU CANNOT RELY ON THE BUILDING SUPPLIER/MANUFACTURER

TO GET THIS RIGHT. THE INTERNATIONAL BUILDING CODE AND

INTERNATIONAL RESIDENTIAL CODE (and possibly some others

that are based on the ASCE-7 standard) ARE DANGEROUSLY UNSAFE

for snow loads.

Why? They specify a "ground snow load," then multiply it by reduction

factors, to obtain a "roof snow load." Our area had numerous roof

collapses in 1993-95 due to that code provision, and it's still in the code.

Experienced engineers, however, know better.

P. M. me if you want a little more information.

Edited March 25, 2015 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[GLong]

Auburnseeker: by far the most important item will be heat and insulation, that is if you plan on working in the building in the 6 months of winter.

My original shop was 40'x60', and I just added 30'x60' to one side. Resulting in 60x70.

The new 'showroom' addition is intended for showing and parking cars, and the original shop will keep it's 3 lifts and machine shop. I was often having to move 2 or3 cars to get a vehicle to the 2-post lift for regular maintenance.. And starting any car just long enough to move it 50-80' then shut it down is terrible for the engine, starter, generator, battery etc.

The entire shop and showroom have hot water heated concrete floors. I do not try to maintain a specific room temperature, I just keep the concrete slab at 55*, this usually keeps the air temperature at 45* measured at 5', about my shoulder height. The outside air temp, and wind make huge differences in the air temperature, so I supplement the floor heat with a waste oil burning furnace.

The shop was built in '96, I bought the place in '97, I used foam boards carefully cut and fit between the purlins on the walls, and put foam boards on the ceiling, the foam boards have an aluminum reflective surface facing down into the room, this reflects much of the radiant heat back down and also makes the building much brighter.

But foam boards, no matter how carefully cut and installed do not seal out most of the drafts around the plywood siding, and other corners and gaps.

So I used spray foam on the showroom addition, and it is amazing what a difference it makes. I will be pulling everything off the walls of the shop, moving everything away from the walls, and have the spray foam guy back in to give the interior a 1" thick sealing layer of foam. He said he does this a lot, since people are figuring out how important sealing and stopping infiltration of cold winter air is.

I highly recommend a heated concrete floor, and spray foam insulation. I would also install at least one door 14' high door so a semi truck, or a motorhome with roof A/C units can clear the door. 'Light tube' skylights give lots of 'free' light and don't let out the heat, Use LED lighting exclusively, it cost nearly nothing to run.

GLong

[Dennis]

I live onside of the U.S. but I would suggest a steel frame building as you indicated a 4--12 pitch, with metal roofing which will outlast asphalt or wood. I also belong to Elks 18 years ago we built a steel structure with concrete siding which looks like cedar siding and also comes in sheets that looks like T-1. You could also lay your shop out on paper with scale models of the vehicles that you own, I would add at least a foot on each side to give you room to move. The building that we had constructed has 12 foot eves I would recommend for your purposes at lease 14 foot. A area set aside for working on your vehicles two or three at a time with room for tools, work benches, power tools and just extra room to move around in, this room could be heated for a more comfortable working conditions during the fall and winter. The structure that we built is 4800 square feet and is 60 by 80, it is also insulated in the roof I think r30. Granted it is not a shop but the size is the size that you are looking at and engineered for snow load which in the Portland, Oregon area we don't as much as on the East Coast but we still need to take it into consideration. The walls are also insulated but I am not sure what the rating is but there are 2 X 6's on edge in the walls. Using metal roofing when you have snow or ice build up when it does finally slide off it can take the eves trough off which happened here about four years ago, still cheaper to replace the eves troughs than the roof. Also the concrete siding is fire resistant. I hope this helps and as the gentleman suggested be sure the roof load bearing is high enough for lots of snow.

[Friartuck]

All good comments here. I'll add look into radiant concrete floor heating. Given you're in upstate NY, use the 2 inch thick 250 PSI rigid sheets laid down with ship lap joints. Its a special order. Beware the sheets at the big box stores are the 150 PSI rating. That will crush under the concrete and vehicle loads. Insist on using the right insulation. Also use vertical sheets against the inside of the foundation. Zip tie the 1/2 inch PEX to the reinforcing wire, not stapled to the insulation. Even if you don't use PEX and the radiant route, still insulate to ensure the slab doesn't become a wick to pull out the heat. PM me for additional info.

[Guest AlCapone]

All good comments here. I'll add look into radiant concrete floor heating. Given you're in upstate NY, use the 2 inch thick 250 PSI rigid sheets laid down with ship lap joints. Its a special order. Beware the sheets at the big box stores are the 150 PSI rating. That will crush under the concrete and vehicle loads. Insist on using the right insulation. Also use vertical sheets against the inside of the foundation. Zip tie the 1/2 inch PEX to the reinforcing wire, not stapled to the insulation. Even if you don't use PEX and the radiant route, still insulate to ensure the slab doesn't become a wick to pull out the heat. PM me for additional info.

A wealth of knowledge in this aspect for sure !

Wayne

[R Walling]

I have a 70 X 100 clear span building that houses my body shop. By the time that I installed two spray booths and the office I ended up with a clear working space of only 60 X 70. I then added a 50 X 70 clearspan addition which I divided in half.

This gives me the possibility of a 150 X 70 clear span if I wanted to convert it to open space.

I thought that that would be a good option, as it is a commercial building, but I'm not sure how much money I would have saved if it were designed differently. At least now I have the option.

As far as heating goes, I installed an over sized hot air heater (350,000BTU) and 24 hour ceiling fans which keeps the floor warm and the heat away from the roof. This allows me to keep the heat at 40 degrees during the night, but I can have the shop at 70 degrees within 20 minutes for proper working conditions.

My builder advised me not to instal any skylights as they will eventually leak and are a large heat waster. Over the years I have sheet rocked the walls and added 6" of insulation.

I whole heartly advise a very large heater, This will allow you to enjoy your shop on cold Saturday mornings when you will only be there for a few hours tinkering.

Edited March 25, 2015 by Roger Walling
size of complete building (see edit history)

[auburnseeker]

We have skylights in the new house. I was surprised since it was built by a roofer as his own house which he owned for 20 years. Although I do like the light from them they probably won't go in the shop. Not only cost but also the flatter pitch will probably make them be a problem in the future. I can see the heat loss around the ones we have, mostly just on the glass surface itself but it still creates ice that eventually can damn up on the rainy winter days.

I really like the in floor idea and may be going with a wood/coal boiler to heat all 3 buildings as the house is already boiler heat.

I may even have to go with the building one year with a gravel floor and the heat/flooring the next to make it a little more feasible.

Snow load is definitely a concern. I want the maximum load. I had a contracting business, before I went into car parts only, because I didn't want to have employees and it's hard to be a builder without employees. One of the projects I built was a 4000 square foot 3 story camp. I could build the building but with the size it's going to be near impossible without atleast a few helpers to get the structure up.

Insulation I was thinking glass with an inner foam layer. I'll have to explore spray foam.

I know you can get 50 year shingles. I honestly think tin around here only gets 50 years before it becomes rusted. I really hate the sliding factor with tin. Especially when you talk a 30 foot roof sliding on the ground then piling back against the building or rain coming in after it slides and damning up against the building because it can't escape the snow which is now frozen into a 6 foot tall wall of ice.

The 2 heat sources might be a good idea. I know I intend to heat it all the time only to a a 40 something degree temperature so a quick blast to warm it up a little to tinker for a few hours might not be the worst thing. Atleast with everything heated already you won't have the condensation problem. I'll have to explore the bigger door as well. with a 14'6 sidewall shouldn't be a problem. I might even go up one row of blocks or a short poured wall to get the lumber off the ground. That's what they did with the existing garage.

All good ideas. Thanks for offering them. That's what I was looking for, real experiences.

Do you remember the cost of the spray foam and how thick was it?

[Restorer32]

No matter how large you build it, it will still be too small. We have an 80x100 and still have a car stored in a trailer, 1 in a shipping container, one in my home garage...

[auburnseeker]

I know 100'x200' would be great but reality sinks in as well. Unfortunately whatever I choose will probably be at the extreme top end of my budget regardless of what it is. I'm realizing it's probably going to be a 2 year deal at this point.

[CHAD THOMAS]

not sure what the lay of the land is, but my buddy put a basement in shop doubling his floor space for roughly 20% more cost.

maybe something to consider.

[auburnseeker]

It's probably about 3-4 foot of grade over the entire area. Due to the layout of the property I would like to put the garage on the back portion so it's not the focal point. Actually behind the existing garage. You will probably see it when you come up the drive but it will be in the distance, not right on the drive.

I wish I had the money to make something as a focal point. A showroom with glass in a craftsmen style with big Overhangs some dormers etc. I can only imagine that would push the price to 500,000 before all is said and done with the size I'm thinking.

It's the old what I want, A Duesenberg SJ, what can I afford, well better than a VW but not quite a Duessy so I end up with an Auburn. I can't complain but I've learned to not get over optimistic either.

I know I have ledge here so I don't think I'll get too deep if I start digging.

I was thinking of putting an open 2nd story down each side with a railing. I have enough height to do that and It will really increase my inside space while still leaving the center open for a lift at some point. I can do that later as time and money permit as well in sections to spread it out over a longer period of time.

Does anyone have any idea of what their concrete floor with radiant heat cost? Insulation, Tubing, Mesh, Concrete etc.

[Mark Shaw]

I agree with GLong:

"I highly recommend a heated concrete floor, and spray foam insulation. I would also install at least one door 14' high door so a semi truck, or a motorhome with roof A/C units can clear the door. 'Light tube' skylights give lots of 'free' light and don't let out the heat, Use LED lighting exclusively, it cost nearly nothing to run."

I built radiant floor heat into my attached 24' X 34' home shop using PEX tubing and an ordinary gas water heater. I used to park five cars in it by using one 4 post storage lift, but I had no room to work on cars. I acquired a 40' X 60' free span metal building with two gable end doors one large and one small as described above. I have two storage lifts in the building and have lots of room for a workshop under a 20' X 40' loft at the opposite end from the doors. I use the loft for household storage and parts. The only problem with this arrangement is shuffling the RV and cars stored on and under the lifts. Our mild climate does not require much heat, so I adapted an old house oil heater for used motor oil to keep the chill off when the temperature gets below freezing just to keep my cars happy.

[auburnseeker]

My taste

Probably my budget

[auburnseeker]

Looks like a shingled roof on this building which doesn't include the actual roof materials just perlins for a metal roof comes in at around 10,000 for sheathing 5/8 plywood, a lifetime architectural shingle I'm assuming atleast 30 years, figuring atleast another 1,000 for drip edge and paper/ ridge vent.

Ironically it seems steel roofing is more expensive. Almost twice as much. That seems to be for standard roofing nothing fancy like standing seam.

[auburnseeker]

Cement slab prices look like they will be around 20,000 for a building that size. IS it cheaper to do footings and a floor or a slab? The calculator I found didn't say how thick the slab would be. Seems footings and a floor would be a little cheaper?

Those 2 things bump that kit right up to the 85 mark if I build it and put the roof on myself. I think I'm running over budget already

That's with no heat in the floor, insulation or power in the building. Seems like those would punch it up to the 100 mark.

[GK1918]

Our shop is about that size 12' door 15' pit we do machining and truck work. I just advise, if going wood-wood trusses, take the extra time to plate with plywood triangles

all truss joints. Don't trust those cheap pressed tin truss joints. easier to do when on the ground. We just built a 80 x 100 barn last summer and already lost three

trusses do to snow, in kind of those tin joints - it takes one failed joint, and there goes the domino effect. So plate your joints with plywood, you wont be sorry. sam

[R Walling]

I would be concerned about the in concret heating in the case of power failure and freezing. Including the option of not heating it for an extended period. (Like when you go to Florida for Jan. to May) (;-)

One thing that I have heard about in floor heat is that it only heats the air to a height of about 6 feet. ??

[auburnseeker]

I would be concerned about the in concret heating in the case of power failure and freezing. Including the option of not heating it for an extended period. (Like when you go to Florida for Jan. to May) (;-)

One thing that I have heard about in floor heat is that it only heats the air to a height of about 6 feet. ??

I figured I would have to antifreeze the system to prevent freezing. There is always the generator option to run the circulators in a power failure. Fortunately we are in a good zone for electric. We are zoned with a few large retailers and several gas stations a little over a 1/2 mile away so they are quick to get power on to them.

I haven't heard about the infloor heat limit of 6 foot. I would imagine if the building is well insulated there shouldn't be a huge difference in temperature I figured I would have to use a couple industrial ceiling fans anyways. I think the moving air helps keep things dry as well. I know in my shop I leave my fans on all summer and the building which is all concrete never has that swamp/damp cave feeling to it.

Thanks for the truss plate idea. That's one of the things I was hoping to learn about. I want to know all the tips and tricks others have learned in the process to try to avoid problems or little upgrades that can make a big difference in the end.

Thanks for all the help and ideas so far. Nothing on the garage journal. Our's seems to welcome newbies better judging by the response to new members inquires.

[Guest BillP]

I've built and rebuilt a few barns and buildings. In upstate NY, you get some winter (I used to live in Oswego). Begin with a thorough and detailed drawing of what you intend to build, from bottom to top.

Starting with footers, I would go at least 48" down and build a proper cage of rebar, without the beam strength it provides, the concrete will crack. Provide J-bolts or equiv to anchor the block to. Come up with two or three courses of block, enough to keep the wood dry. Put foam strip on top of the block to seal the gaps and go up with walls.

As for the floor, Scrape it all out to a depth that will accommodate the floor and everything you're going to put under it Dig out all organic stuff, like tree trunks that will rot and unsupport the floor. I like to put in pea gravel to sort of level and make it semi-clean to walk around. Nail some homosote or whatever they call it around the inside perimeter so the slab can slide up and down over the seasons. It's not as dramatic as that, but it does need to move a little. Then heavy, reinforced plastic sheet as a vapor barrier, this is very important. I put 2" foam board down, then welded wire mesh, try to support the mesh on bricks so it will float in the center of the concrete. You may have to pick it up with a garden fork anyway during the pour. I like to slope the concrete to the door, I think the last one I did was 2" on 25 feet. I don't get any additives like fiberglass in the concrete, just the straight stuff. If your batch plant is not far away, go over and talk to them, tell them what you're doing and ask for tips or suggestions. Saw cut the slab after 24 hours, it's going to crack, the cuts make it pretty. That part is dusty so get somebody else to do it.

Those are a few tips, I'll maybe think of more.

[Paul Dobbin]

Auburnseeker,

Here is the link to Morton buildings, where they allow you to dream and plan on their web site. All your questions are good and this may be the site to get answers before you design a nightmare. http://mortonbuildings.com/reference_number/3873/?photo=2942

Their stuff is a-la-carte, so you can add what you like and is in budget, plus they send a crew and do it all in a flash, so you can get back to work sooner. I've seen many if them that look fantastic. Play with their site for ideas and answers.

We built our wooden building ourselves and had the luxury of changing things as we went. I did hire a professional builder/carpenter as my helper and adviser. It may have been less expensive with Morton.

I used scissor trusses to get a 14.5 Ft. center height (to accommodate my lift) with 10 foot exterior walls (56X36) plus carports on each end. (1 is half a side the other full side) My goal was to not have a commercial look in a residential/small farming area. I put two 10 Ft wide doors in the side and a 11.5 footer in the end for our motorhome.

[John_S_in_Penna]

Here's a little information on metal roofing. Auburnseeker wrote

in posting #20, "It seems steel roofing is more expensive. Almost

twice as much. That seems to be for standard roofing, nothing fancy

like standing seam."

The inexpensive kind of metal roofing has screws that penetrate down

from the top, with rubber or similar grommets around the screws

supposedly to keep the penetration water-proof. Such a roof may be

acceptable on a storage building, but over the years, as the grommets

deteriorate, and the metal roof moves due to thermal expansion and

contraction, you will have hundreds of small openings in your roof to

let water drip through! I know of one fire station that had such a roof;

it became a regular nuisance, and sealing it was futile.

Such a screw-down roof is not suitable if you plan ever to finish any

part of the interior.

Standing-seam metal roof is much better, though also more expensive.

Some standing-seam panels lock together; better yet are the panels

that are "seamed in place" by a special machine. Note, too, that metal

roofs come in various gauges (thicknesses), and if someone wants to

quote you a low price you'll be getting a cheaper roof.

If you live in snow country (such as New York for the original poster),

be aware that snow will suddenly slough off the roof: Hundreds of pounds

at a time will slide off. A 3000 square foot building, with 40 pounds of snow

per square foot of roof, will have 120,000 pounds of snow it must support!

Arrange your landscaping accordingly: Sliding snow will damage it!

And a 2000-pound swath of snow suddenly hitting your Aunt Bessie

could cause injury, so keep sidewalks and other pedestrian areas well away

from the eaves! Consider configuring the roof itself so doors and walkways

aren't along the "eave" side of the building, or add a porch roof over those doors.

Snow guards along the eaves can help hold back the sliding snow.

The "roof eagles" or individual snow guards aren't particularly effective;

and if you use these, they should be attached to the standing seams,

because they can rip the roof panels if they are simply attached to the sheet metal

of the roof itself. Far more effective are continuous metal bars attached to the

standing seams--these are usually colored to match the roof itself, and you

often see them on ski-resort buildings.

Edited March 26, 2015 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[64rustang]

I have been researching a building project myself. Much smaller scale. There is a lot of good information here. I would like to add a few items. Be cafeful if you use spray foam and fiberglass. This is called a hybrid system. Many of the spray foam companies will squirt 1 inch of spray foam on the back side of the sheathing, then tell you to put fiberglass batting over it. They say the foam is the vapor barrier and you can save money with fiberglass. This does not conform to the NYS Building Code. 2 inches of closed cell foam are required to meet the Bldg Code for a vapor barrier. Open cell foam requires nearly twice the tickness to create a vapor barrier. If you install a hybrid system, be sure a proper vapor barrier is installed. If not, you will create the perfect environment for mold. I had the attic in my house spray foamed. It is expensive. About $1/board foot (12"x12"X1"). But it is great if done correctly. Closed cell foam has an approximate R value of 7 per inch. The next piece of advice is to hire a qualified engineer or architect. Like mentioned before, they can calculate snow loads the correct way. As we all know this winter was tough in upstate and central NY. I still have 12"-24" of snow on the lawn. My information comes from my coworker who is the Building Codes Enforcement Official for our town. We share an office and have had many "lessons learned" conversations about residents either getting swindled or that had contractors that know everything because they have been in the business for "x" years. I have seen many "experienced" contractors have their world turned upside down after being educated by the CEO. Most contractors don't have a copy of the Code, or even know how to access it for free online. They rely on the CEO to find any issues during the construction inspections, especially if an architect or engineer did not do the design. Good luck with your project! Remember, you usually get what you pay for.

One last item I just remembered. Before you do anything at all, go see your Zoning Enforcement Official to discuss your proposed project. I am the ZEO for our town. I've had numerous residents anxious to get the shovel in the ground, find out that they are in a NYSDEC wetland, Land Conservation District or FEMA designated floodplain. Better to find out these issues before you start to spend any money. Don't be my brother in law who built his 32x64 pole barn on top of a 60" water main. He had to move the pole barn. D'oh! He didn't know the number for 1-888-DIG-SAFE. He was also an "experienced" contractor. All you need is a few trucks with magnetic signs in NY. My apologies for the extended rant.

Edited March 26, 2015 by 64rustang
Corrected inaccurite information (see edit history)

[GLong]

64rustang: Mixing of insulation types is permitted, at least in my state, the big thing is to not have TWO vapor barriers, I have 2" of closed cell spray foam [the R7 foam] then 3.5" of fiberglass in my 2x6 exterior walls in my house. BUT the fiberglass does not have any paper, no vapor barrier, just bats of fiberglass. This was specified by both the building codes and by several foam and insulation companies and heating engineers.

What you mentioned was also mentioned to me: don't mix the insulation types, UNLESS you understand and correctly control moisture.

The beauty of the spray foam is that it eliminates a condensation site, or surface since each stud space is sprayed, and there are no cold surfaces.

I'm surprised to read your post regarding the NY State codes, since I went to great lengths to make sure I used the spray foam insulation and fiberglass correctly.

GLong

[Restorer32]

I have been researching a building project myself. Much smaller scale. There is a lot of good information here. I would like to add a few items. Do not mix insulation types. If you start with spray foam, stay with spray foam. Many of the spray foam companies will squirt 1 inch on the back side of the sheathing, then tell you to put fiberglass batting over it. They say the foam is the vapor barrier and you can save money with fiberglass. This does not conform to the NYS Building Code. 2 inches of foam are required to meet the Bldg Code for a vapor barrier. And that requirement is based on the type of foam. They are not all the same. However, you are not permitted to mix insulation types. You will create the perfect environment for mold. I had the attic in my house spray foamed. It is expensive. About $1/board foot (12"x12"X1"). But it is great if done correctly. It has an approximate R value of 7 per inch. The next piece of advice is to hire a qualified engineer or architect. Like mentioned before, they can calculate snow loads the correct way. As we all know this winter was tough in upstate and central NY. I still have 12"-24" of snow on the lawn. My information comes from my coworker who is the Building Codes Enforcement Official for our town. We share an office and have had many "lessons learned" conversations about residents either getting swindled or that had contractors that know everything because they have been in the business for "x" years. I have seen many "experienced" contractors have their world turned upside down after being educated by the CEO. Most contractors don't have a copy of the Code, or even know how to access it for free online. They rely on the CEO to find any issues during the construction inspections, especially if an architect or engineer did not do the design. Good luck with your project! Remember, you usually get what you pay for.

One last item I just remembered. Before you do anything at all, go see your Zoning Enforcement Official to discuss your proposed project. I am the ZEO for our town. I've had numerous residents anxious to get the shovel in the ground, find out that they are in a NYSDEC wetland, Land Conservation District or FEMA designated floodplain. Better to find out these issues before you start to spend any money. Don't be my brother in law who built his 32x64 pole barn on top of a 60" water main. He had to move the pole barn. He didn't know the number for 1-888-DIG-SAFE. He was also an "experienced" contractor. All you need is a few trucks with magnetic signs in NY. My apologies for the extended rant.

Excellent advice. I am an elected Councilman in a small PA town. My brother is our Codes Enforcement Officer. Folks refuse to understand that in states with a state wide building code the CEO has little or no latitude to allow anything other than what the code specifies. We can legally modify the code but only if we make it more restrictive, never less. There is actually a commercial service available that will compare satellite photos of your municipality month to month and notify the municipality of any new building or earth moving activity but we find that it is almost always a jealous or vindictive neighbor who reports un-permitted building activity.

[wmsue]

I put in a 3 zone radiant heating system for my sidewalk and apron area outside of my garage. Tek Supply sells a double bubble reflective foil insulation that comes in a 4' x 100' roll that rolls out easily and won't compress under the weight of the concrete. I used in under the slab and zip tied the pex tubing to concrete wire. I run RV antifreeze in a 40 gallon electric hot water tank with a timer and it works great.

When I built my house in 2002 the price I got for radiant floor for my basement was $8 per sq ft. I couldn't afford to pay that price nor did I have time to do it myself. So the basement is a bit cold in the winter. Great for brewing lager style beer though.

[GLong]

Adding pex in the concrete floor is not terribly expensive, and pays you back with comfort and efficiency. The comment about the floor heating to only about 6' is basically correct. I have a two-story entryway with a balcony in my home, the only heat in the home is infloor pex. The temperature on the balcony is roughly 5-6* cooler than at shoulder height on the main level. This is a GOOD thing.. why have your heat up against the ceiling, trying to leave the building??

Being in heated air is not the way our bodies like to be warmed. Radiant is much more comfortable. Think of being outside in the winter, with no wind, and a bright sunny day: the radiant heat from the sun makes the day seem 10-20* warmer.

With a radiant heated room, the objects are warm, like your tools, tool boxes cars, hoist etc. With all of the objects in the room warm, your body is not radiating it's heat away towards cold surfaces. An example: stand next to a door wall or window when the outside temp is low, with your inside temperature a comfortable 70*,, When you stand next to the window or glass door wall, you can feel the heat leaving your body towards the cold surface.. Then go stand next to an insulated wall or an inside wall which would be room temperature. You won't feel your body heat radiating away.

With a heated shop floor, my feet are warm, the floor is 55*, the tools are not cold, and don't get condensation on them from a blast of hot air from a space heater. I can work in air temperatures of 45* inside the shop for an hour or so, with my feet warm.. For longer hours on a job, I use a waste-oil burning furnace, as a 'hot spot' to warm my hands. With the building spray-foam insulated, and the objects in the shop relatively warm, the shop is very comfortable when the air temp is 60*.

The proper location of the shop, relative to water run-off and proper grading away from a building are VERY important with a heated floor. The ground/substrate/grade must be dry. Dry sand or Pea gravel work great. Thankfully my shop location is roughly 2' above the area grade, and the soil is well draining, with no clay.

Having a thick foam board outside the footing, or the perimeter of the floor is vital, you must have a thermal 'break' from the frozen outside ground. Then the insulation under the slab is not as critical, the pea gravel, or dry sand actually become part of the heat reservoir, retaining heat, for hours and days. I do insulate my slab, but I'm way over-kill about the insulation board surrounding the building and slab.

About shingles: the 'long life' shingles are for the most part a scam. I installed some very good, 40-year shingles on my house when I rebuilt it, and the house does not have any moisture issues or is lacking in ventilation etc.. What is lacking is a quality ashphalt shingle on the market.

My new shingles, put on in late fall of 2009 have failed to hold up to wind several times. The shingles 20-30 years ago had a thick stripe or dots of tar on the underside to adhere the shingle tabs to the underlying shingles . The modern shingles have what looks more like a stripe of paint, that is slightly sticky on the bottom of the single tabs. Even after 4 hot summers this 'sticky stripe' has not adhered the shingles together.

After three wind related repairs in three years. I went up on the roof with a caulking gun with black tar adhesive and lifted every tab, and glued it down. Only about 10% of the shingles required using a tool to separate the tab from the underlying shingle.

The other problem is that the 40-50 year shingle time span is based on the thickness and quantity of the ashphalt in the exposed tab. But the exposed tab is just glued onto a thin, make that very thin shingle base. This is the part that has the roofing nails through it into the roofing deck. The heavy exposed tabs may hold up to 40 years of winter and summer weather, but the underlying thin shingle base sheet sure as **** does NOT. The shingle manufacturers will only replace the damaged shingles, and not labor, or not any damaged shingles from the patching of the damaged areas...

So, on my shop, which has ashphalt shingles on the original 40x60 portion, but the addition showroom has steel roofing. I will be reroofing the old section with steel this summer.

Under steel roofing, I put continuous "Ice and Rain Shield' underlayment, this is the thick rubber that sticks to the plywood. It seals each screw at the threads as it goes into the plywood. I do this so that if or when the rubber washer on the screws gets old an might start to leak, the water will just run under the steel, and over the Ice/Rain Shied' and off the eave of the roof.

Personally, I like the fact that the snow will slide off the roof, but I do as already suggested: I don't put sidewalks, or landscaping bushes, or doorways under an eave that probably will shed some snow.

In my area, a steel roof will look great for ~50 years, and still last another 30 years when it starts to rust.. If a good urethane or similar paint is applied in time, the roof will outlast the rest of the building.

GLong

[Restorer32]

Our all steel bldg has screwed in place steel roofing. No leaks yet after 24 years.

[edinmass]

As far as size, my building is 60x120 clear span and 12 feet clear. IT IS TOO SMALL! Bild as large as you can afford. You will use the space. Yes, my building is full. I have 4 cars at another location. Ed.

[alsancle]

The problem with building too big is that you really get diminishing returns if it is a residential property. I would love a building the size of the one Ed has but if I built that at home and lets say it was 200k or 250k. It would probably depreciate the property by an equal amount. The solution is to of course put the building on a commercial lot but in Mass those are very very expensive.

[64rustang]

64rustang: Mixing of insulation types is permitted, at least in my state, the big thing is to not have TWO vapor barriers, I have 2" of closed cell spray foam [the R7 foam] then 3.5" of fiberglass in my 2x6 exterior walls in my house. BUT the fiberglass does not have any paper, no vapor barrier, just bats of fiberglass. This was specified by both the building codes and by several foam and insulation companies and heating engineers.

What you mentioned was also mentioned to me: don't mix the insulation types, UNLESS you understand and correctly control moisture.

The beauty of the spray foam is that it eliminates a condensation site, or surface since each stud space is sprayed, and there are no cold surfaces.

I'm surprised to read your post regarding the NY State codes, since I went to great lengths to make sure I used the spray foam insulation and fiberglass correctly.

GLong

GLong,

I wasn't in the office today to confirm with the CEO. I called him. I will correct my post above after responding to your comment. I misunderstood what he had told me prior. NYS does allow a hybrid system, as they are called. There must be a minimum of 2" of closed cell foam insulation to create the vapor barrier. The fiberglass batting can then be used. The issues we were having were with the local spray foam guys only spraying 1" of foam. There were also issues with the spray foam guys using open cell foam. The CEO clarified that the hybris systems could not be used if other insulation systems were currently installed, such as rigid foam board. My apologies for the incorrect information. All the more reason to hire a qualified architect or engineer to design anything bigger than a shed.

64Rustang

Edited March 26, 2015 by 64rustang (see edit history)

[auburnseeker]

I already have a commercial building on a commercial lot but I'm trying to move everything to one location. My business, internet car parts doesn't require the commercial location. My commute is only a few miles each way but everything is scattered between the 2 properties so I'm always running around. The building at my other location is completely laid out wrong and is concrete so altering it's design is going to be quite difficult. I have 2- 18 by 38 foot bays, so I really think I would be further ahead to build new here. The shop also needs a new roof as it is and insulation work for starters as well. I think it's easier to just start over and get what I really want. It's also easier to keep an eye on things when you can actually see them out the window.

I was thinking I would figure out what I wanted to build and get some rough pricing to see what I can afford, then check into the zoning aspect. I know of similar buildings having been built in the area in residential areas so I'm hoping it won't be a problem. We have 7 acres and where I want to put it will be behind the existing garage, none of which you can see from the road so I think I'm starting on the right foot. If I have a size in mind that I know will fit my needs and budget that might help start things on the right foot with the COE . Better than going in and saying I want to build a big building and have no idea how big or what materials. Being the area I'm in they may even prefer that it be wood sided with a shingle roof. They prefer stuff look a bit more natural than a big tin can.

Around here I think the extra space is desirable as alot of the people buying in the area have Campers and large boats to store. I'm trying to blend with what we have here now so it all looks like one style. The garage and the house are cedar sided, shingled roofs. I think that would make it more palatable for a future buyer as well.

I'm going to check out the Morton site tonight. I couldn't find it when I started looking. I just kept getting Brokers that sell Morton buildings where you had to inquire for pretty much everything.

I did send some questions to Barn pros but haven't heard back.

Lots of great info so far, Keep it coming.

[R Walling]

One thing that you may want to consider is the damage that a fire will have on different buildings. One would think that an all metal building would be best but metal buildings are tempered steel and will be destroyed completely in a large fire. A wood framed one could be repaired if it is put out in time, wood chars, but is not necessarily destroyed .

I am a big believer in 5/8" fire code sheetrock to slow down the fire.

The price of fire insurance should be considered on different types of buildings, and although a clear span is nice, fire spreads slower in a divided one.

[GLong]

64rustang: thanks for checking, I was going to do some more internet searching to find out if I messed up !! Not that I could do much about it, short of tearing out a lot of drywall !! WHEW !! I'm glad I don't have to think about that !

The open cell foam is, as you mentioned not considered a vapor barrier for 'hybrid' insulating systems. I used closed cell foam which is expensive, but good insulation is worth the money.

Take care,

GLong

[auburnseeker]

I just got an email back from Barn Pros on the warehouse 72 and it comes standard as 25 lb snow load. The maximum they can engineer it to is 50#. The online charts for our area and county specifically call for 60 # so the barn is out. The upgrade would have also been another 8500 for the snow load and an extra 2000 for an engineers stamp for NY.

I guess we are off to Morton to do some research.