Engineering dead-ends

[Guest]

I ran across an interesting item the other day. In an article about a mid-fifties Aston Martin high-performance six cylinder engine, it said that the valves are adjusted by changing lifters! The factory provided six sets of incrementally longer or shorter lifters and your mission on that beautiful Saturday morning fifty years ago was to disassemble and reassemble the valve train, mixing and matching lifters until you get the suggested clearances. Yikes! <P>Any other examples?

[Guest]

they were probably hydraulic or maybe desmadroic. OR, it might have just been some writer needing something to generate interest.

[Guest leadfoot]

I seem to remember on my '57 Jaguar that the owner's manual mentioned a coding system for different "pads" to insert under the valves and adjust clearances. I wonder if this is similar to the "Prince of Darkness" syndrome for British cars.

[Guest Albert]

One of the VW's did the same sort of thing, where you measured your excesss valve clearence and added a shim under the ware disk to give the correct clearence..

[Guest De Soto Frank]

You could have just as much "fun" adjusting valves in a first-generation Chrysler Hemi: there was a little tubular "gauge" with a notch in the end of it, and you placed this gauge over the end of the valve stem, with the spring removed and the end of the valve stem was supposed to fall between the end of the tube and the bottom of the notch (a difference of about 1/8 to 1/4 of an inch, if I remember.<BR>If the stem was too long, you ground the excess of the end; if it was too short, you replaced the valve! There was no adjustment on the rocker arm itself!<P>Fortunately, this proceedure was usually undertaken only during valve grind, as the hydraulic valve lifters were pretty-much self-adjusting during the "service life" of the engine!<P>Different valve lifters for lash adjustments; man, that's gotta be right up there with "non-demountable" rims and having to wrestle a tire off & on with the wheel still on the car!

[Guest]

Nowadays we know that cooling the oil is beneficial.<BR>Anyone out there remember the Skinner oil rectifier? Packard used it in '24-'25 I think and Willys knight made use of it as well until '29.<BR>This device was essentially a plenum chamber mounted on the exhaust manifold and the engine oil would circulate around it, the theory being that gasoline and other contaminants would be burned off and the supposedly vaporized products sucked back into the intake while the heavier "rectified" oil thus cleansed of contaminants would drain back into the crankcase.<P>Unfortunately it didn't work out that way as the lubricating qualities of the oil would be literally burned away in short order, and if the oil was not changed VERY frequently sometimes it would carbonize and the particles would play havoc with the bearings and journals which is why Packard stopped using it shortly after while the built-in durability of the sleeve-valve engines would go much longer before any wear was noticed since it was widely believed at the time that the sleeve-valve engine "improved with use"and carbon formations, while harmful to conventional motors, was looked upon as beneficial to sleeve motors, some owners in fact were proud of never changing the oil,just topping it up occasionally as many testimonials bear witness.<P>This bit of trivia I got direct from Austie and Les Cutting whose Falcon Knight motor I worked on years ago,with a Skinner rectifier.........

[ronbarn]

A similar oil purifier system was used on the '27 Marmon E75 (six cylinder) and the '27 Stutz Eight. Apparently it was not used by either Marmon or Stutz after that year - geez, wonder why?

[1937hd45]

I'm sure the Aston mentioned above was the twin overhead cam six that did so well on the race circut in the 1950. I think they are refuring to spacers placed under the cups thar ran off the cam lobes.

[Guest]

37~<P>I dug out the article. The engine is the twin-cam, twin-ignition (in the race edition) six with aluminum block with iron liners and aluminum head. It was designed by Tadek Marek in 1955 and used through the fifties and early sixties. The original design called for 3 liters, stretchable to 3.5 liters.<P>The engine was used in the DB4, 5 & 6 and the DBR2 race car and a few others. <P>I quote from the article: "...there's a choice of seven graded thicknesses for the bucket tappet, and fine adjustment is done by grinding the valve stems or the valve seats. There are no shims." Faulty memory led me to say six thicknesses of tappets. <P>The article goes on to say that the chief Aston engine assembler, on the job since 1966, gets the clearances right on the first go-round only about 85% of the time.<P>Vintage race versions of the engine, built with current techniques and bored/stroked to 4.7 liters are said to put out over 350 bhp. <P>~Bill

[Dave@Moon]

Of a more recent and less technical nature, I've always had a warm spot in my heart for the dissappearing "clamshell" tailgates of full-size GM station wagons from 1971 to 1976. I once saw these referred as these as "an answer GM gave to a question that noone asked."

[ply33]

DeSoto Frank mentions grinding the valve stems to get the clearance close on a Chrysler Hemi.<P>I am not a early Ford V8 person, but I was under the impression that this is exactly the method used to set the clearance in those engines. Worse: The Ford V8 did not have hydraulic lifters, so the clearance had to be set to the actual running value. And, being an L-head design with one cam shaft above the crank, the valves and valve spring keepers were pretty deeply buried.<P>Engineering dead ends have to include all the false starts on easier shifting and semi-automatic transmissions. Any cars equipped with automatic clutches today? Or free wheeling?

[Guest]

Back in the thirties,if a Ford V8 and a Cadillac were standing side-by -side idling,they both sounded about the same. Flat-head V8's were very easy to work on when you had the right equipment.(and they didn't throw connecting rods either)

[1937hd45]

"Flatheads Forever" you need to register, that is a great ID. This past summer a flathead Ford hit 295MPH at Bonneville. It was modified, and in a streamliner. See <A HREF="http://www.flatfire.com" TARGET=_blank>www.flatfire.com</A>

[Guest De Soto Frank]

'Nother "dead-end" came back to me:<P>The "Startix" ! That only lasted a season or two, from what I've read.<P>Or how 'bout '58 Edsel's "Teletouch" electric push-button shift? I've seen more than one '58 Edsel with a manual "stick" jutting up from the transmission hump!<P>Free-wheeling had a limited lifetime too.<P>I started to mention the "fun" of flathead Ford valves (both the V-8 and the N-model tractors) and their "split valve guides", in my original post, but had a moment of self doubt, and was worried about having the Ford camp climb all over me! <P>Didn't the Fords have a "mushroom-shaped" valve stem that necessitated the split valve guide?<P>Other dead-ends: the "Electric Hand gearshift"; Vacuum clutches; the sleeve-valve engine; the Wankel engine; and so on.<P>I wonder how many of these ideas will re-emerge as the engineers run out of new gimmicks - remember Subaru and "Return of the Hill-Holder"? Everybody except Studebaker owners was thinking that Subaru came up with that idea all on their own!

[Guest]

I remember the Startix, if the car stalled it would automatically restart it,or kill your battery trying.<BR>The Ford flatheads had split guides that were held in the block by valve spring tension, brilliant idea but poorly executed since "unloading " the tension on the spring to remove the keepers was not a job for the uncoordinated. like myself.....................<P>

[1937hd45]

This post started with a overhead cam engine valve adjustment question. This weekend I bumped into a friend that just finished doing the valve adjustment on a Model J Duesenberg. He was thrilled that he can now do one in 18 hours. First one years ago took 36 hours.

[Guest]

You Ain't lived unless you have adjusted the valve clearance on an "F" head Rolls or Bentley.The side valves are adjusted using "Braille".You cant see them (no removable Inner splash pan),so you"Feel" them under a wide manifold,not impossible,but dont try it if you have arthritis !

[1937hd45]

I remember installing a clutch in a mid 1930's Rolls, it required "cotton duct washers" can't remember what they were for, but we all got a good laugh out of it. Does any car have more linkage tham a Rolls?

[Guest stude8]

Reminds me of my first experience with replacing a valve in a 3hp Briggs/Stratton snow blower mill. The service valve stem was at least 1/8" too long. Took it back to the store and was told about grind to fit! I got lucky and didn't ruin it, got within 2 or 3 thousandths of what it wanted to be. Just sounds like a good marketing idea to sell more valves. Stude8

[caf]

Anyone recall the name of the electric shift mechnism on the Cold 812? Saw one at Hillsborough Sunday , sure is a beautiful car , was a black convertable with side exhaust pipes. Also was thrilled to see a 1925 Doble touring, Just spectacular , a real engineers car!

[Guest]

Doble model E's are fantastic cars, in less than a minute you are steaming and ready to go.<BR>Everything is fully automatic and constructed of the best materials, guess that's why only millionaires could afford them.<BR>The Cord had a "preselector" box, flip the lever into the desired speed, release the accelerator, depress the clutch and you're there, I don't know the name but it was the same essentially as the Wilson preselector box used in England for about 30 years. <BR>I have a weakness for semiauto trannies like the Chrysler M6 that I learned to drive on along with other oddball gearboxes.

[Al Smeraldo]

I remember adjusting the valves on my 1951 Dodge Sport Roadster. You had to work under the fender, take off side plates on the engine, then use three tappet wrenches and a feeler gauge while the engine was running. This was done under the hot exhaust manifold. Lots of burned knuckles on that one. Al

[Al Smeraldo]

I also did one of those Jag heads. You had to do one cam at a time and remove the one you finished or the valves would hit one another and bend when you rotated the cam. Learned that one the hard way. Al

[Guest leadfoot]

Hey Al -<BR>It's interesting how little engine designs changed between 1915 and 1951 at Dodge. The same procedures are necessary with the same hazards on the early Dodges, except you work on your knees over the fender and under the hot exhaust.<P>An added bonus - there is no timing mark on the early DBs. You start the engine timing process by accurately adjusting the hot #4 exhaust tappet with #1 cylinder at TDC on intake. You have to work quickly before the engine cools off.

[Guest Randy Berger]

DeSoto Frank, Edsel's "Tele-touch" was engineered by Autolite in 1956 for Packard. When Ford took over Autolite in 1957 they tried to recoup the cost of engineering that unit by installing it in the Edsels. Running all the wiring down the steering column was not the smartest idea - works fine if you never turn the wheel.

[Al Smeraldo]

Leadfoot, I think they used that same design until 58 or 59. Al

[Al Smeraldo]

Randy, My dad had an Edsel. Turning the wheel had no effect as the control head was stationary. The wires were run the same as directional signal wires are run on all cars. Al

[Chris Bamford]

Two more examples...<P>The early Model T Fords did not have adjustable tappets. To adjust the valve clearance, one was instructed to grind the valve stem down if too long, or peen the non -wearing portion of the stem carefully to actually stretch the stem by a few thou.<P>The 1923 Packard Six (one of which my father had in the '90's) had a 7th spark plug, in the intake manifold, that was called a "Fuelizer" (I think). Apparenly the idea was to pre-warm the mixture on it's way into the engine as an aid to combustion. I wonder if this concept made its way into 1924?

[Guest De Soto Frank]

And another one:<P>I remember seeing an ad for a '22 or '23 Lincoln, touting their "Electro-fogger" carburetor and manifold; apparently it had a heating element which was intended to help vaporize the fuel-air mix.<BR>(This was when the Lelands still had Lincoln.)<P>Was the average gasoline available back then really that bad or were these ideas "Alchemists" solutions for improved performance?

[ply33]

Apparently the typical octane of gas sold in the mid to late 1920s was between 50 and 60. My impression is that it was a lot more like kerosene than what we call gasoline today.<P>Given that, one of the difficulties all manufactures had was of getting the fuel to vaporize. All sorts of carburetor and manifold heating mechanisms were used for this.<P>One of the problems owners of 1920s cars have today is that these heaters are not needed on today's gas and can cause drivability issues.

[Guest]

The Lincoln "fogger" was a circular coil of nichrome resistance wire of sufficient ampacity to heat up just below the point where the gas would ignite, Packard did it better with their "fuelizer" which was a plenum surrounding the intake containing a spark plug that ignited a gas-air mixture{pulse combustion} fed to it from the carb, much akin to a South wind heater or a V2 buzz bomb.

[Guest]

[Guest]

carburetor heat is a necessary evil of such aspirated engines. It is accomplished in many different ways. I'm nor sure how the Lincoln Electro Fogger worked but my guess is that it is a glow plug in the carb base or very near. Such glow plug design has been used in various other engines as a source of carb heat among other methods.

[1937hd45]

The above Rajah is for use in a Packard Fuelizer that L.I. Stellite mentioned. Do you want to see other sparkplug "Dead Ends"?

[Guest]

Yes!<BR>Didn't early spark plugs require periodic disassembly for cleaning & maintenance?

[Guest]

Indeed they did.<BR>The porcelain insulator was sealed with a copper crush washer held on by a hollow nut. <BR>The bad quality of early gas plus the very frequent oil fouling {oil control rings were not thought of yet} with consequent carbon build up was the cause.<BR>Somewhere I have a sheet from 1906 that shows the leading brands of sparkplugs and their claims, maybe I'll take a pic and send it to peterg to post.

[Guest Randy Berger]

Al Smeraldo, I don't know about your car, but none of my Packards ever ran the turn-signal wiring down the center of the steering column. The only wire there is for the horn and that is a ground wire, so that if it loses insulation it may blow the horn but not start a fire. How did Edsel accomplish this? to keep the center still while turning the wheel?? Makes more sense that way - just trying to picture how they did that.

[Guest De Soto Frank]

Al & Randy,<P>Might be a moot point by now, but I'm not quite sure how Edsel executed that stationary control head for the "Teletouch" at the center on the steering wheel; I'm pretty confident though that almost all columns with "built-in" turn signals run the wiring down through the column jacket and not the center of the steering shaft; in fact, most horn wires also went outside the steering shaft with the signal wires when that incorporation occured.<P>I have indeed had "steering shaft horn wires" short out; boy does that attract unwanted attention (even gestures!) when you're in the middle of turning a corner and have to get over to the shoulder so you can disconnect the horns! !<P>The biggest problems I've heard about concerning the "Edsel Teletouch" was the "modified windshield-wiper motor" that actually shifted the transmission linkage: Edsel owenrs have told me that the shift motor would develop a "heat-short", and refuse to operate due proximity to hot exhaust system. A few Edsel guys have said have told me they found a way to repair or improve the motor and make it work fialry reliably.<BR>Can't say if that's legend or not: my '59 Edsel wagon has a 3-speed column shift! <P>Of course, I never had any problems from my Push-button Torqueflites (except maybe the occaisional button popping out of the dash... )!

[Guest Randy Berger]

DeSoto Frank, The Edsel engineers mounted the unit off the bell housing near the exhaust - guess that created some odd problems. Packard mounted the motor (it was NOT a windshield motor), directly on the manual selector shaft, which created other maintenance problems. Sometime when you want a chuckle, read about how to remove that unit for repairs/inspection. ALL other pushbutton units were mechanical (Mercury and Chrysler) and they seem to have withstood the test of time better than the Autolite design. <BR>I still like my pushbutton, it has worked fine for about 15 years.

[Al Smeraldo]

I don't know how Edsel connected the stationary switch head to the wires as I never took it apart. However I had a 1950 Austin A40 that had a stationary horn button. The wire went through a long tube that that fit inside a larger tube that connected the steering wheel to the gears inside the steering box. The horn button was removed by taking a nut off at the lower end of the steering box and pulling the whole assembly out through the top. If I recall correctly it was about 5 feet long. I guess I found another engineering dead end.