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"Original" cars...or restored 40 or 50 years ago...a fooler


trimacar
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Not my car, but here's a Franklin for sale, seller starts out saying all original paint and interior, and then further states that some people are telling him not so.

It's interesting to me, our idea of an "original" car is something that has some wear and age to it, without thinking of real time, in this case 80+ years. A LOT of cars that were restored in the 1950's and 1960's are being looked at as "original" cars, due to the patina....with people not thinking that, for example, a car restored in 1965 now has 50 YEARS of aging......

I looked at a wonderful early (1910 or so) brass car one time, a beautiful original looking Peerless touring, that one would swear was an original, never restored, car. A phone call to a friend who is more than well versed in early cars, he seems to know every one out there of any note at all, told me the car had been restored in the early '50's, then toured extensively. It sure fooled me!!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Other-Makes-Brown-Black-1932-franklin-16-a-airman-sedan-beautiful-classic-car-/121570861343?forcerrptr=true&hash=item1c4e30211f&item=121570861343&pt=US_Cars_Trucks

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Yes, I agree, fellow trying to sell a car for thousands, and the pictures look like they are pictures of pictures, both taken with an old Brownie camera!!

The distortion looks like that made when a scanned photograph is enlarged. The pictures appear to originally be the size and dimensions of those from a film camera using 126 Instamatic film.

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The distortion looks like that made when a scanned photograph is enlarged. The pictures appear to originally be the size and dimensions of those from a film camera using 126 Instamatic film.

The photos may be old enough that they are photos of the car in original ​condition

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The prewar cars that people were "restoring" in the 1950's in many cases were basically very good original cars to start with. Many were just nice low mileage originals that got a tune up, tires, paint job & the bumpers chromed and were then called "restored." I'll take one of these any day as they were generally very well cared for cars from new.

Edited by K8096 (see edit history)
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The prewar cars that people were "restoring" in the 1950's in many cases were basically very good original cars to start with. Many were just nice low mileage originals that got a tune up, tires, paint job & the bumpers chromed and were then called "restored." I'll take one of these any day as they were generally very well cared for cars from new.

I'll take one !!

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This points up an issue for AACA to consider in HPOF

(Historic Preservation of Original Features) evaluation:

Can an old restoration fool the judges into thinking

that a car may be original? Those HPOF judges might

be certifying a few cars as "original" when they aren't.

People look to HPOF cars as examples of factory authenticity,

to be kept as historic references for the future.

Thus, could you be unknowingly basing your expensive new

restoration--paint colors, striping, interior trim details, etc.--

on what Fred's Auto Body established in 1965?

Edited by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)
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"Fool" a judge? No use questioning it, it's already happened, I won't name names but it's a fact. There are beginning to be fake original cars, just as there are fake restored cars. There's an art to making something look old, and many people know, and are practicing, that art.

I don't think there's anything wrong with doing so, unless the intent is to fool a buyer and thus command a premium price when sold.

With time, memories and details fade away....so they'll all be real 100 years from now....

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Back in the late 70s I had an unrestored 1911 REO. Anyone looking at it would have agreed it had its original paint but by an amazing circumstance there was a photo of it, taken in 1939, in Old Cars Weekly (identifiable because the photo caption mentioned it was taken on the way back from the 1939 Air Races ... and the car still had stickers on the windshield from the same event). I contacted the gentleman who submitted the photo and he told me he'd had it painted... in 1938.

Edited by JV Puleo (see edit history)
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Guest cben09

A good friend bought a 1910 tourer,in 1930,,It was a bit tatty,but not bad

He decided to paint it,,and to keep it original it was brush painted in good color

and Valentines best varnish over it,,

It was a well known VMCCA tourer and drove over the road to Detroit

for the Golden Jubelee in '46 I think,,All this with no chase car

Its a re-paint is it not,,,How many of these ORIGINAL cars are

laquer or enamel,,,,,unknown in 1910

How many early cars have been repainted

Major Goyette's museum in Peterboro,Nh was ALL original cars,,

Then there is the matching numbers thing on cars and bikes that

never had matching numbers,,,and the bike I took out of the crate

that had half of the engine # stamped upside down,,

Memories,,,Ben

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Some people are trying to pass off old restorations as original because they think they can extract more money for the cars. I've seen this done with several cars at Hershey in recent years. We've got one guy here in Texas representing a poorly maintained car as original, despite being told that it had been fully and nicely restored in the early 1960s (I have pictures to prove it).

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Ben's made a good point. All pre-WWI cars were brush painted and varnished. Spraying, and lacquer paint are products of the 20s. If we want to speak of top end cars, Locomobiles, Packards, Pierce Arrow, Peerless etc., it wasn't at all uncommon for them to be painted every year as a matter of maintenance since the early "coach painting" was not durable although it looked spectacular when new. Like the matching number thing Ben mentions, I suspect the term "original" tends to be interpreted in terms of late 30s to 50s cars and may not be properly applicable to brass cars or even some in the teens and early 20s.

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[quote name=trimacar;1403196)

I don't think there's anything wrong with doing so' date=' unless the intent is to fool a buyer and thus command a premium price when sold.

With time, memories and details fade away....so they'll all be real 100 years from now....

Second oldest profession, Used Car Salesman!

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John_S_in_Penna

Re: "Original" cars...or restored 40 or 50 years ago...a fooler

This points up an issue for AACA to consider in HPOF

(Historic Preservation of Original Features) evaluation:

Can an old restoration fool the judges into thinking

that a car may be original? Those HPOF judges might

be certifying a few cars as "original" when they aren't.

People look to HPOF cars as examples of factory authenticity,

to be kept as historic references for the future.

Thus, could you be unknowingly basing your expensive new

restoration--paint colors, striping, interior trim details, etc.--

on what Fred's Auto Body established in 1965?

The HPOF Evaluation Committee has considered this quite a few years ago. AACA judging has always been based on honesty that the car is restored as built by the factory and delivered to the first owner. For that reason, every car rolls onto the show field with 400 points. The owner is expected to have factory documentation to support any major deduction by the judges. The judges deduct for items not factory original. HPOF is much the same. The owners are to disclose items which are not original on their car. Deductions are made based on the evaluation committee assessment of the car, considering the owners comments. Every owner comment may not result in a deduction but will be reviewed by the committee for deduction. If the committee can not determine if a component has been restored or not, there is no deduction. Remember, this is HPOF, Historical Preservation of Original Components. The key word is COMPONENTS. A 1920's car that was repainted in the 1950's may receive an HPOF because the engine, engine compartment, interior and underbody have been maintained, but not restored. There is no deduction for maintenance items which have been replaced. HPOF cars still must meet AACA judging standards for "as delivered to the original owner". This means that hose clamps, tires etc. which are maintenance items must be of the correct style and size or they will receive a deduction.

Can judges be fooled? Yes. Both in point judging and HPOF. But the spirit of AACA judging is that the owner has been honest in his representation of the car to the best of his knowledge. We all fail when an owner represents something as factory correct or original which he knows isn't or has been told by someone else that it doesn't matter the judges don't catch it.

HPOF certified vehicles are wonderful restoration guides because the owners will (should) tell you what is original and what has been restored because they are maintaining the car for that purpose and their enjoyment of an original car.

Edited by 61polara (see edit history)
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Thanks for the explanation, Dave.

However, for a car restored in the 1950's, an owner

likely may not know what's original, and what was

replaced 50 or 60 years ago; so he could be honest,

attest to the HPOF judges that his car was original,

and get his old restoration certified as mostly unrestored.

Trimacar's original point was that old restorations may fool people.

Today's judges, living 100 years after the early cars were made,

almost certainly don't know what the correct interior trim details were

for a 1913 Cartercar or a 1919 Cunningham; nor its paint offerings,

nor many other things. They do their best, but they're probably

thinking, "this looks very old" and "this looks generally appropriate

for the era."

Any ideas, anyone, on how to improve the HPOF judging process?

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A good faux finish it an artform, and some people are very good at it. I saw one 1910 era car at Hershey years ago that everyone knew was "Fake" but the workmanship to get the paint to look that old was a true work of art. If I were to find a nice low milage 1910 touring that had the back removed to make a truck, I'd want the reproduction rear seat to match the aged original front. I'd state that it was a replacement, but othere might not. Bob

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Good point, Bob. I've heard of original HPOF cars

needing some work, and the restorer went to great

lengths to make the new pieces weathered-looking to

match the rest of the car.

A shiny piece in the middle of a rough-looking engine bay

would look completely out of place; but some years from now,

after the car changes owners, who will know it's from 2015

instead of 1915?

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Guest cben09

Just saying,,,,,,,

If we took those 2 original Panhards

the V-2 with iron tyres,,an' the big '05 tourer,all original

and restored them to 1950 unrestored condition,,,

To me ,,,more pleasant to view,,,when I see those i cry,,,

When some of these get restored,,original parts get chucked

Gotta clean up,,,Ben

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