Oil Change Questions

[RoadsterRich]

I have a nice new Pan gasket from Olson's Gaskets, I've drained the pain, and ready to drop it for cleaning.<P>The owners manual says "At least once a year, preferably in the fall, the oil pan should be removed from the engine and thoroughly washed. The oil strainer should be removed and washed at this time." It also states "Kerosene should never be used for flushing out the oil pan and lubricating system. A certain amount will remain in the system, collecting in pockets from which it cannot readily be drained, and will dilute the oil." Another document says to "Wash the pan and screen with kerosene." <P>Now I'm confused, what should I use to wash the screen and pan with, and how should I prep it before putting it back?<P>Also it makes a reference to flushing the lubricating system. Should I be attempting to flush it? If so what should I use to flush it? A light weight oil?<BR> <BR>When I put everything back, I was told it would be a good idea to use an SAE 10 oil to start with, to help flush the system and then to replace it shortly with SAE 30 that is called for in the owners manual. Is this a good idea?<P>I have the an old replaceable element filter on the car, I do not know if it is original or not, nor if I can even get a filter for it. It is a cannister with an oil fitting on the side top, and at the bottom, with a spinnoff nut on top that releases the cover. Inside a brass tube runs up through the center.<P><P>The manual calls for a "Pur-O-Later EA-2" filter. I assume it would be wise to have some sort of filter in place before starting up for the first time. Any and all suggestions here are welcome.<P>Thanks!<P>Rich

[Guest]

The first time I dropped the pan on my car, which was "restored" in the 70s I was quite surprised at the amount of real hard deposits in the pan, approximately 3/4 inch in some spots. This is an unfiltered oil and air system (just an extensive oil screen). It took days of soaking and digging to get all the crud out including using kerosene on several final washes. I wiped it dry before reassembly. I refilled it with the ususal 30w detergent oil and drained it again after the next outing. Be aware of any procedure necessary to prime the oil pump after reassembly. Usually a dry sump pump will not self prime. FYI, my owners manual also suggested annual pan cleaning.

[ronbarn]

Few cars of the early '30s had any filter at all. My '34 Chev does not have a filter. There were a lot of confusing instructions put out by manufacturers at the time. Cleaning out with kerosene was one approach, but when the filters started being added to the engine some manfacturers went to the no kerosene approach.<P>My recommendation is to drop the pan and clean everything you can reach with something - I prefer mineral spirits over kerosene or diesel (and never use gasoline). Then reassemble, nice and clean, and use 10W-30W or 20W-50W when you button everything up. Ted's comments about priming the oil pump are good.

[Guest HOOIE]

I have heard "old timers" talk about draining the oil and putting kerosene in the engine and starting it up and running it for a little bit to clean the engine out. I suspect it would! This may be what the owners manual is warning not to do.

[ply33]

ronbarn, don't confuse the low tech Chevy with splash fed bearings with the well engineered cars from Chrysler Corporation. In 1930 Plymouth had full pressure feed lubrication and an oil filter. And if you wanted a better car you got the Chrysler. <P>I don't have the appropriate Chrylser parts book to check, but Plymouth started using an oil filter on the 30-U models starting in April of 1930. From 1930 through at least 1934 Plymouth used Chrysler part number 324271 which was a disposable canister. The replacement part for this is still available (NAPA 1035 and/or WIX 51035).<P>The type of filter you have in your picture was used on later Plymouths. I am not sure when the element type was first used. It does not show up in my parts books that cover up through 1934. The use of the replaceable element versus disposable canister seemed to vary from year to year and car to car until the L-6 engine was retired.<P>Filter elements for the filter shown in your picture are still available. I believe that you should check out the NAPA 1010 and/or 1080 filters.<P>I agree with the above comments about cleaning out the pan, screen, etc.

[RoadsterRich]

In checking with the Chrysler Master Parts List (1924-1933), oil filters are listed as being standard on cars back to 1924, with the earliest listing in the book for a 'Chrysler 6'. Since the manual only goes back to 1924, I can't comment beyond that.<P>The original Chrysler part number for the oil filter in my car is interesting, in the 3 sources I have (The Chrysler Master Parts List 1924-1933, Chrysler Master Parts List 1929-1939, and the AEA Chrysler 6 - Code W tuneup chart) each one lists a different part number for the oil filter. Also the 24-33 manual lists two different part numbers based on the serial number.<P>In looking at the dash on my car, I believe it originally had the style that was a long cylinder with an upper and lower mounting bracket. Same diameter as the current one but better than twice the height and non-changeable element. Looks like an elongated over sized food can.<P>For now, I think I will live with finding an element for the currently installed filter. This will give me a chance to research what is exactly right, and will add some modicom of protection while I work on the engine.<P>Dropping the pan is going to be fun, I have the car up on jack stands. This affords me enough room to slide up under the car, but not a great deal of elbow room. I suspect the pan lowering will be rather interesting. I think I will put the oil plug back in before starting this. Are there any hints or tricks to help in the removal?<P>Also on a side note, when I first got the car I checked the dip stick. It was just slightly low on oil. The upper part of the oil on the stick was as clean as fresh oil. The lower 1/4" or so, was black sludge. When I drained the oil the first 'glob' of oil was sludge, but after that it came out clean. Reportedly the oil is 30+ years old.<P>Well weather and back permitting I will be tackling the oil pan this afternoon or tomorrow afternoon.<P>Rich

[Guest Albert]

For the oil filters check the fram catalog that style was used on a lot of the old tractors and is still being made..bought 2 from canadian tire C7 for around $8cdn ea but check your size first and they come with new O rings.

[Guest]

Roadster -<BR>If you have a service manual, it should have some info on dropping the pan. On the old DBs, you have to cut the front wheels hard right and remove the oil indicator tip (there is no dip stick, it is a float indicator that drops with the pan). Putting the pan back is really tricky because the oil pump gears have to engage with the engine shaft and the oil float has to hit a 1/8 inch hole in the block. I've use a scissors jack and small vise grips to accomplish this. And the rear seal has to be glued and fitted to the block behind the rear main. I hope that yours is not this complicated.

[RoadsterRich]

All I have are First and Second editions of the owners manual, the 1924-33 Master Parts manual, the 1929-1939 Master Parts Manual (3 volume set). I have original manuals as well as having them on CD. I ordered a CD version of the service manual, it was backordered and due to be shipped this past October. It is still not here and I noticed it was no longer listed in their catalog. Perhaps Chrysler shot them down on the reprint of it. The owners manual has some great information and instructions in it, it does not cover the oil pan other than to say to do it annually.<P>By the way, the WIX part number for the replacement elements is 51010 or 51080. I just checked with my local non-chain parts supplier and he can get them for me. As I currently have the oil filter assembly off the car (replacing the tubing & fittings) I will take it down tomorrow and hopefully find the proper fit. <P>Rich

[RoadsterRich]

As a follow up it was a WIX 51080 filter. Fits perfectly. There is a spring and a cap of sorts in the filter assembly, mine were loose in it. They fit over the tube that runs up the center, do they go above or below the filter? (I assume below the filter, with the metal cap like piece on top of the spring?) I am replacing all of the fittings, etc while I am in there. The filter and fittings came to about $12.50. I bought them from the local family business, rather than NAPA. For one I can almost walk to their store, and for the other they have gone way beyond on finding parts for me, I'd rather give them all the business I can. Didn't get the pan dropped, its been raining and windy, I can't open the garage to work in that weather... maybe this weekend. Thanks for all those who have helped so far, I'll keep on boring ya'll with my progress...<P>Rich

[RoadsterRich]

Perhaps I should have started a new thread to get the answer to these questions, but I will try them here.<P>I know the Oil Filter is not original, however; I would like to clean it up. What color would the bracket have originally been? Black or ??? Anyone know where I can get the proper paint for the orangish body color on it? I am trying not to put anything I take off the car back on, unless it has been cleaned, rebuilt, refurbished, painted, and is ready to roll. Also from my last post buried in it was the question of where the little spring and metal cap with the hole in it go in relation to the filter cartridge? I would assume they push the filter up, since the inlet as at the top of the tank, and the outlet goes through little holes in the pipe up the middle of the tank.<P>As always, thanks in advance for the great help!<P>Rich

[ronbarn]

I agree with Ply33. I don't think any judge would challenge black bracket and Fram orange. Fram filter decals are also available. As for the location of the spring, it should be there in a location to make sure the oil flow is through the filter element, not around it. Am not sure about your specific set up, but if the flow of oil is into the center of the element and then out, the spring should hold it against the input port.

[ply33]

I can not help you on the internals of your filter as I have never seen the inside of that type.<P>As to color: Chrysler bought filters from various OEMs. One of the biggest suppliers of filters for Chrysler in that era was Fram and many of the filters were in Fram Orange. This is apparently the same orange that Fram uses today. The Plymouth Club allows as authentic the following colors: Black, orange, medium blue, or red. I suspect that the Chrysler colors would be the same.

[Guest]

I worked on MANY cars,30's 40's and up I clearly remember who had the most "rod" failures those years.The pans were not held on with "stove-bolts'

[Guest]

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[RoadsterRich]

In the never ending saga of the 30 Chrysler 77, work finally let up enough for me to go out and drop the pan. Boy howdy it sure was glued up there good. I took out all the bolts and still had a bear of a time getting it off, and there I was worried when I let those last two bolts loose that it might fall. I was so worried I had put a couple of bungee cords from one side of the engine to the other to hold it in place. Well the bungee cords still came in handy once I got it to let go. I had about 3/8" of thick sludge in the bottom. I hand removed the center section, however both ends are baffled so I soaked it in mineral spirits. That cleaned alot out, but still quite a bit of sludge up in the baffled areas. Unfortunately time was limited, so I left it soaking in the mineral spirits, I was running low so it is tilted to one end slight letting that end do the soaking. I'll have to drop buy and pick up some more tonight. Overall it was very clean outside of the sludge. There appeared to be some grit in with the oil (very little, I couldn't see it, but could feel it when I put my hands in it and rubbed the fingers together). When I put the mineral spirits in the grit seems to dissolve, maybe carbon buildup? Or some impurities in the old oil had solidified? Ah well, the long and the short of it is the oil pan is off, soaking in mineral spirits. While I have it off is this a good time to clean it up and paint it? If so what kind of paint is best to be used here? And how the heck do I prep it for the paint?<P>Oh and for THE most important question, anyone know how to remove the oil strainer screen on a 1930 Chrysler 6 engine?<P>Rich

[ronbarn]

Way to go Rich - Just keep soaking and sloshing to get rid of all that crud. If the particles dissolve in the mineral spirits that they are not metal shaving - the last thing you want to find in the pan. When you have a comfortable feeling that the sludge is removed and the pan is clean, be sure it is very dry. Use compressed air or some heat to dry it out. <P>As for painting, nothing magical and yes now is the time to do it. Clean throughly. I would use fresh mineral spirits first until you have it very clean. Then use a good pre-clean product. I would use something like DP40 two part primer and then whatever primer-surfacer you prefer , however this may not be necessary if the surface is straight. I would then recommend an epoxy type paint for durability - proper color for your engine, of course. Can't help there.

[Guest]

I sand blast the exterior of all my oil pans after masking the interior off and then give it a healty coat of polyurethane in the colr of my choice (no primer). The polyurethane paint dries to a rubbery consistency and the blasted finish lets it stick like glue. <P>Make sure it's absolutely oil free before painting, hot tanking seems to be the only way to get the oil out of the pores of the metal and I recommend this if you have access to the facilities.

[RoadsterRich]

Here is a picture of the pan straight after I took it off the car. I drained the oil and left the plug out for several weeks. In the picture, you can see where the plug is in the center, it is not depressed like that, what you see is the sludge and the depth of it around the drain. The circular rings towards the top of the picture, in the sludge, is the 'impression' of the oil pump screen in the sludge.<P><IMG SRC=http://www.1930chrysler77.com/pics/oilpan.jpg><P>I will follow up with a 'clean' pan picture once I have the sludge cleaned out. For tonight it is still soaking in the garage, filled with mineral spirits.<P>Chuck, bear with me, I am new to all of this. What is hot tanking, and where would I likely find the facilities to do this? I assume it involves a heat process, is this similar to what they do with radiators?<P>Thanks all!<P>Rich

[Guest]

Hot tanking uses much the same chemical as carb cleaner, only is usually in a much larger tank and is heated. Engine blocks are usually dipped in this type of tank and is really the only way to get to oil galleries clean.<P>The process has fallen out of favour as of late due to environmental reasons, and the availability of high pressure cleaning washers that resemble giant dishwashers.<P>You should still be able to find the old hot tanks around because they do the best job on inaccessible passages etc. The giant dishwashers work well but don't get long narrow passages clean.<P>The typical large engine remanufacturer has both, the engine is first "tanked"and then goes to the "dishwasher" for final cleaning. Oil pans don't usually go into the dishwasher because the high pressure spray blows them around (don't ask how I know this).<P>The hot tanks active chemical is "reactivated" with sulphuric acid so aluminum/magnesium etc. components cannot be cleaned by this method. This allows the facility to reuse the tanks liquid without having to dump and clean constantly.<P>The "tanker" may not allow painted components in his tank because it makes a slimy messy that he will have to skim off, so blasting is usually the first step before "tanking" for painted components.<P>Low pressure blasting (30-50psi max) is what I recommend as any higher might warp your pan. Coarse grit sand will leave a nice rough finish that takes paint well. Remember not the inside, you may never get the grit out from under the baffling. I use heavy cardboard and layers of aluminum tape to protect areas I don't want blasted.<P>The hot tank process will eat all that crud off, so wash what you can and dry it enough for you to mask it and then be prepared for the wonderful results. <P>Also I wouldn't be worried about getting the pickup off the pump as it is likely pressed in, send all the parts in with the pan. The hot tank will even get the crud out of the bypass spring port saving you all kinds of time. <P>Disassemble what you can (pump cover and rotor etc.), you might want to tack weld the pump pickup to the pump after it is cleaned as they have been known to work loose over the years and all that might be holding it on is the oil varnish (this is an old racing trick worth doing). <P>I recommend putting a reference punch mark on the tube and housing, so if it comes out of the tank in two pieces you won't have to guess the proper alignment. Weld it if it does. A couple of tacks is all that is required.<P>When you are ready to reassemble the entire mess I would check for 1/4"-3/8" clearance from the pickup to the bottom of the pan, any more than that and I would; a.) bend the pickup tube, b.) cut and lengthen same or, c.) make a custom spacer for the pump. <P>I doubt you will have this problem as this is a stock assembly. Check it just the same, test fit without the pan gasket and add the thickness to your measurement. You can use plumbers putty stuck to the pickup to get the thickness.<P>One last thing for this thread, I regularly flush my engines with diesel fuel to get the last crap out, the reason not to use kerosene is because it attacks the rubber oil seals. Diesel fuel does not.<P>Have fun!!<p>[ 02-06-2002: Message edited by: Chuck da Machinist ]

[RoadsterRich]

Here is a view looking up while under the car at the 'oil screen'...<P><IMG SRC=http://www.1930Chrysler77.com/pics/oilstrain1.jpg><P>It clearly needs cleaned, just have to figure out how to remove either it or the assembly it is in...<P>Rich

[Guest]

Does this engine have the oil pump in the block Rich?<P>It looks like the pickup is just pressed into the block, if this is the case some configurations I've seen have a threaded screen/pickup cup. You might put a strap wrench on the cup and see if it turns. Some times just the screen screws on. Wouldn't hurt to try.<P>Nice photos btw, were you on your back on a creeper?

[RoadsterRich]

Chuck, I didn't have room for me and the creeper and the camera, so that was me on my back on the garage floor looking up. You can see some larger, and more detailed views on my website under the Engine section of the photographs at:<P><A HREF="http://www.1930chrysler77.com/SD.asp?D=Engine" TARGET=_blank>http://www.1930chrysler77.com/SD.asp?D=Engine</A><P>I appreciate all your, and everyone elses input. As always the help here is amazing! I have over 200 photos of various pieces parts of the car so far on the site, before I am done it will likely be in the thousands. Guess I'd better think about being more organized with them.<P>Rich

[Guest]

After more closely inspecting the photo it looks like there is a pin that goes through the pickup tube below the screen, if so removing it might allow the screen assembly to drop out.

[RoadsterRich]

Yet another image from the oil pan saga...<P>As a followup I am including photos of the oil pan as I go through the cleaning, restoration and repaint process. This image was taken after the first cut at cleaning the pan. I have done one additional cleaning, photos to follow when I get the chance to take them...<P><IMG SRC=http://www.1930Chrysler77.com/pics/OilPanClean1.jpg><P>Additional images can be seen at:<P><A HREF="http://www.1930chrysler77.com/SD.asp?D=Engine" TARGET=_blank>http://www.1930chrysler77.com/SD.asp?D=Engine</A><P>Rich

[Guest stude8]

Rich:<BR>The canister type filters were considered "Partial Flow" design. They had a restriction configured to cause oil to follow the path thru the filter media (Cotton wadding) but if or rather when it did become plugged with debris there would still be a bypass path around the element to keep from starving the bearings for oil. I have a friend who has a theory that in their present life collector cars see much fewer and less harder miles per season than when they were daily transportation so no filter is as good as a poor partial flow. In fact my 1930 seldom gets more than 500 miles a season and often I watch clean looking oil go into the drain pan each fall before it goes away for Winter. Anyway don't be lured to buy a bargain "Old Stock" filter at a fleamarket, the cotton wadding may be full of bug larve. Stude8

[Manuel]

hello Rich,<BR>I saw your discussions on your sump/oil pan. [i have just joined the AACA discussion group] i recently dropped the sump on my 1933 Dodge. i had the same results as yourself. [black sludge everywhere] the sumps look very similar in shape & size. there is a split pin, spring & washer holding the gauze in place in my engine.<BR>what i would like is to replace the sealed throw-away oil filter cannister fitted to my engine. does anybody know the Napa or Wix numbers for my filter?<BR>good luck with your sump overhaul.<BR> Manuel

[ply33]

Sealed throwaway bypass filters: NAPA 1035, WIX 51035.