64 Riviera Wildcat Questions

January 28, 2015

Hi. I have my late grandmother's car now (she was ROA # 5537), and I just uploaded a photo of it into the random gallery. A friend was siphoning the gas today (half tank). The first 1/4 looked fine but smelled abnormal. He was unable to siphon more than 1/4 before it stopped draining. At that point he noticed minute traces of rust particles, while later mentioning the filter looked good.

I called around and was told the tank could be flushed and resealed. I do not know if that is advisable. For the price range quoted, my friend suggested attempting to find a new or re-manufactured tank. After many phone calls, I learned it was not a simple feat.

Another friend suggested running a video scope into the tank, first. He said if it did not look too bad, to simply drain as much as possible and then fill it with 100% gasoline, along with a fuel stabilizer. Female here and know next to nothing about cars. Is there some special trick to siphoning out the rest of that gas (a long hose was utilized)? Does anyone have suggestions as to where I might find a tank, as well as any additional suggestions (I have already located a sending unit)? Thank you in advance.

Edited January 28, 2015 by 1964 Riviera Wildcat (see edit history)

68RIVGS · January 28, 2015

Welcome to the AACA ROA Riviera forum and your very first post!

Stale gas has a very distinct odour, and rust scale can form inside a steel tank from moisture, particularly if the vehicle has sat for a while.

If your going to put a new sending unit in the tank, the original gas tank will have to be removed from the car. While it is off the car, and assuming it is in good condition, the tank can be cleaned out and resealed at the same time. Replacing the old tank with a new one may not be a simple easy task, as other members may already know.

Good luck, and enjoy your grandmother's car !

RivNut · January 28, 2015

here's an alternative to keep in mind.

http://forums.aaca.org/f177/65-gas-tank-repair-replacement-240580.html

There's been no follow up since either person posting has filled this tank with gas. Perhaps they'll chime in here and bring us up to date. One thing that is not mentioned in th posts is that this replacement (?) tank is only 17 gallons instead of 20.

Ed

Edited January 28, 2015 by RivNut (see edit history)

Lapham3 · January 28, 2015

If the tank is in good shape structurally, a sealer can work well. I've used the POR-15 brand and had good luck on several motorcycle and generator tanks. The tanks must be cleaned inside first and any scale knocked loose-(I shake it around with good sized nuts and bolts) The sealer takes a few days to cure, but dones the job-good luck.

January 28, 2015

Hi, and welcome to the forum. Great place to be, and a wealth of information to be found here.

I pretty much did what Lapham3 and 68RIVGS suggested. Mine sat for 20+ years with fuel in it.

I also ran a disposable clear fuel filter before my regular filter to catch junk that came out. Went through 3 of them and have not had any problems.

Best to you,

Buddy

Seafoam65 · January 28, 2015

Hi. I have my late grandmother's car now (she was ROA # 5537), and I just uploaded a photo of it into the random gallery. A friend was siphoning the gas today (half tank). The first 1/4 looked fine but smelled abnormal. He was unable to siphon more than 1/4 before it stopped draining. At that point he noticed minute traces of rust particles, while later mentioning the filter looked good.
I called around and was told the tank could be flushed and resealed. I do not know if that is advisable. For the price range quoted, my friend suggested attempting to find a new or re-manufactured tank. After many phone calls, I learned it was not a simple feat.
Another friend suggested running a video scope into the tank, first. He said if it did not look too bad, to simply drain as much as possible and then fill it with 100% gasoline, along with a fuel stabilizer. Female here and know next to nothing about cars. Is there some special trick to siphoning out the rest of that gas (a long hose was utilized)? Does anyone have suggestions as to where I might find a tank, as well as any additional suggestions (I have already located a sending unit)? Thank you in advance.

There is no reason why you shouldn't be able to siphon all the gas out of the tank. make sure your hose is long enough to reach the bottom of the tank. the other thing to note is that when siphoning gas, you must keep the other end of the hose below the lowest point of the tank or it won't siphon. One thing I intend to do this year is get with a repro tank manufacturer and see if I can convince them to make a tank for 63-65 rivieras. All they would need to do is utilize an existing tank

they sell and put a different filler neck on it. On the sender unit they could use their existing A-body

sender and put on a different resistor if the ohm readings are different. It should be a piece of cake!

RivNut · January 28, 2015

When changing senders you need to remember that the gauge has the same resistance in ohms as the sender. You can't use a '65 sender with a '63 gauge and vice versa; the '65 is a 90 ohm unit and the '63 is a 45 ohm unit. I think the '64 is a 90 as well, but I'm not sure if in '64 they kept the old or went with the new. This also makes it tough when replacing the OE gauges with aftermarket ones.

Ed

JZRIV · January 28, 2015

Welcome to the forum.

Before doing anything, I suggest focus be on determining the condition of the tank. Tank replacement should only be considered as a last resort when it is 100% confirmed yours is beyond repair.

A few "minute" rust particles doesn't necessarily dictate replacing or pulling the tank for repair. If you have a shop that has a scope that would be the least invasive and costly action. Scopes are pretty common these days as cost has come way down. Harbor freight sells a camera scope for $90 but haven't used one to know the quality.http://www.harborfreight.com/digital-inspection-camera-67979.html

Most shops have them so you may know someone who is willing to help you. Depending on the image quality of the camera, you may or may not get conclusive evidence to move forward but its worth a try as it would only take a few minutes once you get access to a scope. Caution that the scope may get damaged if submerged in gas

If a scope is not available, or inconclusive, the next options would be to insure old gas is removed. Best to use a pump vs gravity siphon. Once old gas is removed replace the fuel filter and try to get the car running. If the fuel filter clogs quickly then you KNOW the tank will need removed. If it doesn't clog then you may get away with running a couple tanks fulls of gas and replace the filter again.

Or: If you want to have someone remove the tank, once the sending unit is removed and access hole open, visually you can see inside the tank which then you can 100% determine how bad it is. It may just need flushed out which is easier to do once the access hole is opened up. At that point the decision with be much simpler.

Edited January 28, 2015 by JZRIV (see edit history)

BadgerRivFan · January 28, 2015

Helpful advice here, but remember guys 1964 Riviera Wildcat indicated that she "knows next to nothing about cars." An explanation of what a sending unit is/does would be helpful for someone with very little experience. I'll leave that one up to RivNut...

RivNut · January 28, 2015

Al, you give my too much credit, but I'll take it as another "Google challenge." I found this on the V8Buick website. I'll take the credit for finding it, but none of the credit for explaining it in a way that's easy to understand.

The fuel sending unit in these cars is a simple potentiometer, a variable resistor. Its the same component you'd find in any piece of electronics that uses a dial for something, [like the volume on a radio. - Ed] There is a float that floats on the gas, that lifts or lowers an arm, which rotates the potentiometer and changes the resistance it creates. An ohm is the SI [international System of units - Ed] unit of measuring electrical resistance. The fuel gauge is really just an ohmmeter, reading the resistance across the potentiometer in the sending unit. The fuel sender on most of these cars is set up such that when the arm is rotated all the way counter clockwise (no gas) there is 0 ohms of resistance, and when it is all the way clockwise (full gas), there is 90 ohms of resistance. The replaced 0 with "E" and 90 with "F", and that's a fuel gauge. On the '64s its the same setup, but with a 0-30 potentiometer. This works fine, the system is just less sensitive to small changes in the amount of fuel.

I added a couple of editorial additions for clarity/examples.

Ed

Edited January 29, 2015 by RivNut (see edit history)

January 28, 2015

Yes indeed, a new title other than "junior member" should be created in honor of my lack of knowledge regarding automobiles. "Non-tinkerer member" would suffice quite nicely, even though I have pulled a jet ski motor in the past, whereas my grandmother (original owner) used to adjust her Riviera's carb. Fortunately I am blessed to have an angel of a young mechanic whom is knowledgeable with my newer vehicles, or I would be beyond doomed. I have since forwarded him a link to this thread, asking if he has access to a video scope.

I also forwarded it to my friend having suggested the scope. Although extremely car and motor knowledgeable himself, he has a friend in the classic car refurbishing business with a two year waiting list, and intends to ask him for further suggestions (unfortunately they both reside out of state, or I would be golden).

My local friend having attempted to siphon the gas called someone whom suggested removing as much gas as possible, then adding Sta-bil 360 to the new fuel, and supposedly that would resolve the issue. He had explained to him that not much rust was visible within the siphon hose. I do not know, but I do know that rust is evil; so, I want all of it out of there. Has anyone used it?

http://www.sta-bil360.com/how-it-works

When siphoning the gas, my friend used maybe a 6' clear hose, perhaps an inch diameter, with a sinker anchored onto the bottom of it. The car is garaged upon a flat surface; the tank he drained into was lower than the Riviera's tank. Perhaps the length and/or large diameter was the issue. When it got to where he could siphon no more, he cut off the sinker, to no avail. I suggested putting the portable gas tank on its side, but that helped for only a bit more. I suggested cutting the hose at an angle, but he did not try that, before calling it quits. He has since suggested jacking up one end of the car, to force the gasoline to one side, so as to remove as much as possible.

I have seen someone utilize a portable air tank method to siphon fuel from one of my jet skis. Perhaps that would work. He rigged to the siphon hose creating a vacuum of sorts, but that is all I can recall. Thank you very much for the warm welcomes and prompt input, as well as the suggestion of the pump method. It is possible I purchased one of those long ago for my skis, and simply never unpackaged it, leaving it long forgotten. I will search the garage.

Edited January 28, 2015 by 1964 Riviera Wildcat (see edit history)

steelman · January 29, 2015

Don't forget that old gas is in the fuel lines as well. Both of them, including the return line. These gum up with the old gas more easily than the tank itself. These need to be flushed and blown out at a minimum, after you decide what to do with the tank itself.

January 29, 2015

I did not know. Thank you very much Mr. Owens.

arnulfo de l.a. · January 29, 2015

You can get a cheap electric fuel pump to drain the gas. I do it all the time . Works like a charm.

arnulfo

January 29, 2015

Good to learn they exist. I may do that. Thank you very much, Arnulfo.

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