Brake Accumulator Alternatives

[KDirk]

Have to concur with Ronnie on this. We do not know the operating specs for the Mitsubishi part. If it is not at least equal to the Teves accumulator in design pressure, the bladder is likely to rupture when put to system pressure. Thus would be the same as no accumulator at all, not a good situation. That it is not a direct fit is also a strike against. Why bother making an adapter if a plug and play alternative (as Hydac purports to be) is readily available?

If the Hydac unit works as advertised, the search is over IMO. I don't think you will find another suitable new part for less than $135. Taking shots in the dark with other parts is risky, and not worthwhile unless there is significant cost savings in doing so to prove their suitaility. That said, it wouldn't be a bad idea to have another source in case one dries up suddenly.

KDirk

[rogold99]

I ordered the Mitsubishi unit the day before Ronnie posted about the Hydac finding otherwise I would have tried to order a Hydac. I figured since it was already on its way I would check it out and post my findings. At least others know it is not a direct fit at best.

[Ronnie]

Just throwing this out for anyone considering experimenting with accumulators... A concern I have with testing low pressure accumulators on a high pressure system is personal injury from an accumulator rupturing (exploding).

Example: If you have an accumulator designed for 400 psi it might be built out of a much thinner steel than the one built for the Teves system that normally operates at upwards of 2000 psi. Keep in mind that the accumulators are filled with a gas that is going to be compressed as hydraulic pressure is applied to the diaphragm. No matter if the rubber diaphragm ruptures or stretches the gas inside the accumulator will be compressed. It would be like filling a small air tank that is rated for 400 psi with 2000 psi of air. The result could be catastrophic if someone is standing nearby if the steel accumulator ruptures with gas pressure inside.

It may seem that I'm being overly cautious about testing something as simple as an accumulator. I have been around hydraulic systems for over 25 years and I can tell you it is better to be safe than sorry. Anytime you are compressing a gas (air or nitrogen) to high pressure you are asking for trouble if you don't know the pressure rating of the container... be it an accumulator, air tank, or whatever.

[NCReatta]

I should receive my ADAC accumulator today/tomorrow and am optimistic about its suitability for the Reatta based on the seller's apparent expertise and statement that it will work. $135.00 plus tax plus Priority Mail shipping $150.75. I do not think that this is necessarily the end of the alternative line as far availability and pricing. Accumulators are widely used in the field of hydraulics and it becomes a matter of getting the proper match from physical attributes as well as internal volumetric sizing/pressure. Interesting to note that ADAC is sponsoring some automotive racing competition in Europe. Kingsley http://www.Reatta"]www.<wbr>Reatta Specialty Parts - the name to know it comes to headlight motor repair kits' date=' 'vert sun visor clips/EZ On replacement tops Slightly off topic: In my professional career, my Company purchased one of the "climbing" cranes that built the World Trade Center towers in New York - the ones that were later destroyed. It was an Australian manufacture and was appropriately called the "Kangaroo" crane. Relevance here is that it had hydraulic draw works involving a lot of accumulators. It was designed for use as a lift crane and we modified it to use also as a barge mounted duty cycle crane. Took over a year to get it "right" and we dumped a lot of hydraulic fluid in the Mississippi River in that process. The crane is still in use and can be seen docked in the port of New Orleans today.[/quote']

Kingsley, if I remember correctly, you sold your last Reatta to Jim Finn. How are you going to test whether these work or not?

It's amazing to me that us parts vendors even continue to try to remake parts. This happens so often. There's a need, everyone gets thrown into a panic "oh my gosh what are we going to do without _______ part? This is the end of the Reatta!"

Then here we are, we've spent quite a bit of our own money to have the Reatta accumulators remanufactured. After we've done all the work for sourcing, sent all the specs to our manufacturer in Germany, ordered a large amount, imported them from Germany (not cheap) and offer them for sale at a fair price (considering the amount of money we've laid out, the amount of time and effort, and a profit margin that we can continue to live on).

But that's just not good enough for you people. There's always got to be something better out there.

Ronnie made a very valid point about pressure. While the Hydac unit may look like it will work, it's walls may not be thick enough. When we sent the specs to our manufacturer in Germany, we included the pressure that the Teves system operates at.

Our accumulators WILL work. No guess work involved. I've had one on my own car for over a month (and I'm driving that car every day) with zero issues. It's probably one of the best stopping Reattas I've ever had.

This is why we never pooled and had the convertible top gaskets remanufactured. I have another NOS complete set here that could make a perfect mould from. But what am I going to do when I lay out the tens of thousands of dollars to have them made, only to have people say "that's too much, let's use corvette gaskets instead" (which will NOT work. Trust me I've tried)

I've had my hands on more Reattas in the past week than most of you have probably seen since you bought your car. Even more than an average BCA meet pulls in. I live and breathe Reattas every day. They're how I make my living. Am I trying to screw you guys with a price point that's outrageous? No. Am I trying to make a few bucks to cover my time and cash outlay? Yes. It's a simple business practice you learn in business 101.

I'm not retired. I'm not drawing on social security. In fact, I'm paying into it so others can contenue to draw.

I can't loose money on every part I sell like some vendors can. But I'm also not here just for the money. I'm in this business because I'm passionate about Reattas.

Our customers aren't willing to hit or miss with parts. They are willing to pay the money to get the right part the first time that won't blow up in their mechanic's face. That is evident by the fact that all 50 of our first case have been sold. The next shipment should be here by Friday.

I honestly think Barney said it best:

At some point, the price of maintaining a particular vehicle separates the men from the boys.

The $2 parts for the $10 cars are drying up. Reattas are becoming classics and going up in value. When that happens. like with every car, the cost of parts will go up too.

The good thing for us that are in the Reatta hobby for the long run is that when vendors like myself are making money, that money goes back into reproducing parts. I doubt you'll ever be able to build a Reatta out of a catalogue like you can with some cars, but more parts will become available as the interest in Reattas grows.

[handmedownreatta]

i expect you to make a profit on the stuff you sale.but sometimes your markup seems too high.

[DAVES89]

Marck for what it is worth I have been selling my NOS accumulators so that I can buy one [actually two] from you.

You offer a great service and while some may think your pricing is high it is very fair when the time that is required to secure parts is factored in.

[DAVES89]

i expect you to make a profit on the stuff you sale.but sometimes your markup seems too high.

I have said it before, "If you think it is too high now just wait. Pretty much all the low cost parts are gone. People will be buying cars just for the parts they need".

The last published price on a G.M. Accumulator from a dealer was $256.08 That is NOS that is at least 10 years old. A new one from Marck is $350.00 Makes sense to me.

Marck send me an email when they come in. I will order one from you. My email is;

lemke1044@aol.com

[Guest Kingsley]

Does anyone have a good take on what the OE Reatta nitrogen pre-charge figure is and what is the operating pressure of the system? Although I have had the AC Delco unit in my hand I do not recall seeing any reference to these questions.

Perhaps Marck can shed some light on the pressure and dimension specs of his unit so that we can all get a comfort level from it. I do congratulate him for his efforts to get these parts.

The ADAC accumulator that I purchased from the Florida vendor will be tested on a Reatta this weekend or early next week. The results, the pros and cons. will be posted. It would appear that the ADAC vendor has done his homework as to the need for the part, researched it, found a reliable manufacturer and moved in that direction. I believe Barney has posted a list of cars using the Mark II Teves units and I believe this vendor's compatibility list coincides with it. A rather broad market and undoubtedly a factor in his pricing.

We still have some questions and reserve final judgement until everything is in.

Kingsley

www.reattaspecialtyparts.com - the name to know when buying headlight motor repair kits as well as sun visor clips and the EZ On replacmernt top for the convertibles

[Ronnie]

Marck, I didn't post about the Hydac accumulators to step on your toes. I had been searching for replacement accumulators for a couple of weeks before this thread started. Since PD210 was looking for an alternative to high accumulator prices, (I didn't know if he was talking about about your prices or not), I decided the time was right to post what I had found about the Hydac accumulators. I thought he was in dire need for a cheap accumulator to keep his car going but it seems now that was not the case. I also posted them for the benefit of people like me who are on a fixed income that need to take advantage of low prices to make ends meet. I don't think you have anything to be concerned about with the me posting a source for the Hydac accumulators. I think you sell to a different clientele than I just described that will want the OEM style accumulator which the Hydac is not. It is a functional replacement that I'm almost certain will work on our Reattas but it does look different. It has to be installed differently because it doesn't have the fitting for the hex key on the top.

I commend you for your efforts to make Reatta parts available and for the passion you have for the Buick Reatta. I hope you continue with what you are doing.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Ronnie (see edit history)

[Guest PontiacDude210]

I understand now why this topic has not been brought up before. Yes, I am on a budget. If I mention that directly I feel like I'll get the "then sell off the expensive project car" speech again. I see no reason to run to eBay and pay $450 for the last NOS unit on the planet if there are others that work, manufactured to the same spec. I wasn't looking for an alternative to save myself some money or hurt anyone's business. I didn't even know Marck was having them remade honestly. I remember, however, a few years ago buying my first Reatta. I was in college, didn't have much money, and I loved the car. Not just 2 seaters, not just cheap cars, I loved the Reatta and I had wanted one for a long time. I found one on a lot for not much and I remember thinking every time I had to source a specialty part, "This is the week it goes to the scrapper so I can get textbooks." If the accumulator had failed back then, I may not have it today. Now I have a few bucks to use, I just wanted to try to help out other Reatta owners who may not have the money to keep a 400 point car, who are in it just out of a passion for the car.

On the subject of lower pressure accumulators, I wouldn't run one. I was under the impression that if you're going to strap a Mitsu or Beemer accumulator to your car, you ought know it's op pressure first. That was another purpose here, was to try to gather operating pressures from other units That could be viable substitutes. So I guess the question is, does anyone have the original accumulator pressure specs to compare to the hydac? I was under the impression That may have been done.

If we can determine the safety of the HYDAC, I think my purpose here is complete. I will order a HYDAC for my sunroof coupe, the rolling abomination, and a reman for my mainly original coupe.

[Guest Mc_Reatta]

Does anyone have a good take on what the OE Reatta nitrogen pre-charge figure is and what is the operating pressure of the system? Although I have had the AC Delco unit in my hand I do not recall seeing any reference to these questions.

Perhaps Marck can shed some light on the pressure and dimension specs of his unit so that we can all get a comfort level from it. I do congratulate him for his efforts to get these parts.

The ADAC accumulator that I purchased from the Florida vendor will be tested on a Reatta this weekend or early next week. The results, the pros and cons. will be posted. It would appear that the ADAC vendor has done his homework as to the need for the part, researched it, found a reliable manufacturer and moved in that direction. I believe Barney has posted a list of cars using the Mark II Teves units and I believe this vendor's compatibility list coincides with it. A rather broad market and undoubtedly a factor in his pricing.

We still have some questions and reserve final judgement until everything is in.

Kingsley

www.reattaspecialtyparts.com - the name to know when buying headlight motor repair kits as well as sun visor clips and the EZ On replacmernt top for the convertibles

Pre-charge is 580 to 1160 psi

Max operating pressure is 2610 psi

Measurement of those pressures is documented in the FSM section on diagnosing the anti-lock brake system.

OEM accumulator markings show max operating pressure spec'ed as 3046 psi and volume as 0.25 liter.

Very comprehensive article on our Teves Mk II from a very strange source:

http://vw-passat-mk3-35i.blogspot.com/2013/07/volkswagen-passat-35i-mk3-abs-teves.html

See if you can find the accumulator.

Funny that with all the cars that shared our Teves, the Ford Thunderbird guys seemed to have led the charge on replacement accumulators.

[KDirk]

Marck-

I understand your frustration on this. I have advocated for people to support the efforts you have made here more than once regarding the accumulator specifically. If I needed one now, and hadn't already acquired two Delco units myself, I would buy one from you no question as I know it will be right. Nothing says I won't be buying more in the future, so I could easily end up getting one from you.

Now, I also understand there are some owners who have a very tight budget. I could be flippant and tell them to buy a car that doesn't require expensive specialty parts, but that is ignorant and solves nothing; besides which it is not my style to do so. If there is an economy grade alternative for those who are in a real pinch, then I favor giving them an option.

The fact is, Reatta ownership will continue to get more expsenive from here forward. The result is that those who bought a Reatta cheap as it was an attractive and affordable option, will be forced out eventually by the cost of parts and upkeep. That will hold true whether it becomes a bona fide collectible or not as the numbers drop and parts become more scarce, as well as the effects of age on these cars. That will leave the truly committed owners, be they collectors or just enthusiasts of the model.

I guess my point is simply this: some will not or cannot spend upwards of $400 on a part, but can swing $150 or so. If that difference keeps their cars from being needlessly parted and crushed a few years more even, it benefits the rest of us who are committed to the long haul by stretching out the supply of parts that can be recycled a few more years if nothing else. If it results in more cars that can be saved and restored, assuming the values appreciated enough to justify doing so, that is even better.

Please realize that my interest in the Hydac part is not to undercut you or your efforts, but rather to help those owners who are genuinely unable to hack the price of a genuine part keep their cars functional and safe. In the longer run, I view that as a benefit. Of course, I understand your point of view as well as I have been in similar situations. And I know there are people for whom no deal is ever good enough, these are the perenniel complainers. There will be no pleasing some customers, so don't lose your sanity trying.

KDirk

[Guest my3buicks]

The main fact is that an accumulator shouldn't be such a rare or expensive part, when you consider that not only the Reatta used it but multiple other applications within the GM line. It doesn't sound like a part that GM should have dropped the ball on. I can understand model specific items being scarce, but not this part.

[KDirk]

Keith,

That is absolutely true. And not just GM, but many other makes both domestic and European. However, planned, and forced, obsolescence is an integral part of the business model for car companies now and has been for decades.

What is disturbing to me is how much worse it is getting. The desperation to continue growing sales each quarter is palpable. Considering the shameless channel stuffing being done by GM and Ford that I have witnessed first hand locally (and Toyota is doing this as well based on parking lots rented out to store overflow dealer inventory) and the advent of absurd financing terms (7 and even 8 years now being pushed) clearly demonstrate they are trying to sell cars at any and all costs. They know the consequences of this foolishness, but do it anyway because what is their alternative? Roll over and die? Surely you jest.

By extension, this also means planned and forced obsolescence will get worse as it is one sure way to force cars off the road and require that they be replaced. To say nothing of the fact that current cars are so much more complex that DIY service is less feasible than ever. Talk about a money pit designed to encourage replacement rather than repair. I find it highly doubtful there will be many current model cars still around in 25 years as their reliance on technology that will be near impossible to substitute/bypass/repair pretty well guarantees a hard expiration date.

I don't expect most people to keep a car 25+ years. It is a challenge, to be sure. There are people like us who are up to the challenge provided the cars can reasonably be kept in road worthy condition. The era of such cars is probably over though, and even the Reatta will be a difficult car to keep going in 10 or 20 more years due to electronics alone. Who knows what other parts may stymie our efforts as well. We are just now getting our first taste of that problem and it isn't even serious yet.

KDirk

Edited January 15, 2015 by KDirk (see edit history)

[Guest PontiacDude210]

KDirk, I agree. However, I'm having no trouble keeping my 91 Jeep alive and well, and due in no small part to Chrysler keeping support around for the 4.0 for years after its departure as well as the inherent simplicity in design of the Jeep. The Reatta is a different story technology wise and GM seems in a hurry to force the otherwise reliable series 1 cars off the road.

[harry yarnell]

OMG, what a rats nest!!

Is that the accumulator under the Hoover vacuum cleaner looking thingy?

Very comprehensive article on our Teves Mk II from a very strange source:

http://vw-passat-mk3-35i.blogspot.com/2013/07/volkswagen-passat-35i-mk3-abs-teves.html

See if you can find the accumulator.

[Guest PontiacDude210]

Do I understand correctly that the Tbird SC used the Teves mk2 as well? Because...

http://powerbrakeservice.net/bracforlimav.html

[Ronnie]

We are extremely lucky to have our accumulators so accessible. The accumulators on the Thunderbird Super Coupes are just as bad as the one on the Passat. A lot of other cars that use the Teves Mk II are hidden too.

[KDirk]

PD210-

That would be the one. Pictured unit looks like the stock ATE part down to the warning sticker. Has the correct red protective cap on the threads, too. The real question is, does that outfit have any available to sell, and if so, are they just on hand inventory (when they're gone that's it) or are they being second sourced like Hydac?

I'd be curious to know if they can actually ship one. A lot of places online will show parts for sale, then when you order you get a message that the part isn't available because they are simply having it dropped shipped from another distributor and their own online catalog doesn't reflect the true availability of inventory. Heck, amazon kept the listing up for months after they were unable to fill orders. Maybe they thought more would be available but in this day and age, a change in item status to "discontinued" by the manufacturer should be pretty quickly evident and refleced in the online catalog almost instantly. A lot of this stems from laziness and inattention, or with everything so automated, no one minding the store, as it were.

This was happening with Teves front ABS sensor leads a while back. Some ebay sellers were showing these available. They were relying on bogus inventory data from a wholesaler. The ebay sellers didn't have the part on hand in fact, they were just a store front acting as a third party. You "bought" from them and they passed an order to the wholesaler who in turn drop shipped it. But, since the parts didn't actually exist outside of a bad on-hand count in a computer somewhere, a couple of days later you'd get a cancelled transaction notice when the wholesale distributor informed the ebay store front selller the item wasn't available.

This seems common in auto parts where many online stores are simply linking to the inventory of a wholesale outfit that show units OH in their database due to bad record keeping but then doesn't have the item on the shelf when it is time to fill an order. Frustrating as hell, but has happened to me more than once.

KDirk

Edited January 15, 2015 by KDirk (see edit history)

[Guest my3buicks]

And that is so frustrating, false advertising and entrapment getting you to their sites

[Ronnie]

...

This was happening with Teves front ABS sensor leads a while back. Some ebay sellers were showing these available. They were relying on bogus inventory data from a wholesaler. The ebay sellers didn't have the part on hand in fact, they were just a store front acting as a third party. You "bought" from them and they passed an order to the wholesaler who in turn drop shipped it. But, since the parts didn't actually exist outside of a bad on-hand count in a computer somewhere, a couple of days later you'd get a cancelled transaction notice when the wholesale distributor informed the ebay store front selller the item wasn't available.

This seems common in auto parts where many online stores are simply linking to the inventory of a wholesale outfit that show units OH in their database due to bad record keeping but then doesn't have the item on the shelf when it is time to fill an order. Frustrating as hell, but has happened to me more than once.

KDirk

Although I'm not selling on eBay I find myself in the same situation you describe with the Reatta Store. I think everyone knows that the Reatta Store is a storefront for Amazon. I stock nothing and I have no control over inventory or shipping. I can only pass on the information Amazon supplies to me about an item which isn't always correct. Although the information about items in my store is updated in real time, it doesn't always jive with what Amazon is showing on their website. Amazon kept showing the accumulators were available in the Reatta Store for a couple of months when they weren't. That makes it extremely frustrating for me but what can I do other than shutting down the Reatta Store?

On one hand I feel like I'm doing Reatta owners a service by having commonly needed Reatta parts listed in the Reatta Store so they can be assured they are getting a part that fits. On the other hand I feel I may be complicating things for Reatta owners by doing what is described above. It's hard to gauge which hand is correct without any feedback from people who have used the Reatta Store. Maybe I need to add feedback page to the Reatta Store so customers can let me know how they feel.

[KDirk]

Ronnie,

No slight against you inteneded with that post. This is a common business model now with online stores, be it ebay or elsewhere. It is a perfectly valid way of operating and it provides a useful service. The problem lies in the fact that both you, as the proprietor, and the customer are at the mercy of the data integrity of the actual supplier. If they have it wrong, it results in cancelled or delayed orders which is an inconvenience for both the customer and the store operator. Also a potential ding against the store operator if the customer fails to understand the circumstances. I understand this, some are not so accommodating as they are unaware of the behind the scenes operations that take place.

I don't consider this occasional botch-up a reason to shut the store. I obviously don't know your stats but have to assume the number of such problem transactions you end up having is a small slice of the total. Assuming that to be the case, I'd not be gettng too discouraged by these things if I were in your position.

KDirk

[Ronnie]

Kevin,

I wasn't offended by your post. I fully understand what you are saying. I just wanted to share how frustrating it is from my point of view. Even though I call it a store, I look at it as a service because I only get a tiny percentage of each order (with no additional cost to the customer). If my time spent on the store is considered I'm making nothing. I made the decision to close the store once but when I did several Reatta owners asked me to keep it open. They tell me they find it useful when they need a part number even if they need the part quickly and have to buy it locally. As long as it helps someone...

[Dashmaster]

Ronnie I can say I appreciate your store and have ordered several items without issue and have more to go, and the Tutorials for all of us to use. I have also gotten parts from Jim Finn. Others in this thread I have not needed to get parts from you all yet but I am sure it will happen. After getting the braking system on mine working again and the accumulator was still good I can say I was happy. But when it goes I have no spare. I appreciate everyone's support for keeping needed parts available, I also want to thank everyone for the research for finding other parts that will work for the Reatta. Like the Dorman Engine Cradle Bushings, Not original but needed to keep these cars on the road. Part replacement options help with price and give us choices depending on how each of us want to keep the car. 400 point show, Daily Driver Cruiser, etc. Its nice to have good sources for any part needed.

[Barney Eaton]

The accumulator linked in post #57 should work on the Reatta.... with that said a few years back some Reatta owners received accumulators from their GM dealers that were too tall. The screwed in and worked but were just tall enough for the cross brace to hit them. I think the 2-3 people that had that problem returned them to the dealer and got the correct replacement. We never learned what the "tall" accumulators were made for.

Talking about planned obsolescence and parts not being supported. Our laws only require the manufacturer to support the vehicle for so many years. After that time the only thing you can do is bang on your desk/workbench. The bean counter became involved in this process 20+ years back. With some simple calculations, they determined and sold the concept to management that it cost "X" number of dollars to support a part number. Using things like warehouse space and even the time required to put the number on reports, they either dropped the part or combined it into an assembly because the fixed cost to carry the part was more than their profit, forcing you to purchase more parts than you needed to repair the bad/broken part.

Some examples. The RED (burgundy) convertible visor clip was obsoleted in 1992, if you needed one they sold you a Flame Red. (the Red ones could be found for a while as some dealers had stock) The headlight bellcrank was obsoleted in the fall of 2001 and at the time the price was up to $180 retail. Power antenna parts.....you could buy replacement components, motor, mast asm, cord repair kit .... until around 2010 (the bankruptcy) when all the individual parts were dropped and you must purchase a complete antenna.

Another example is the Reatta sunroof. I don't know when they did it but way back around 2000 you had to buy the entire sunroof if a part broke.... that is one reason we learned the Mazda sunroof was the same and you could get parts from Mazda.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Barney Eaton (see edit history)

[Guest Kingsley]

Do I understand correctly that the Tbird SC used the Teves mk2 as well? Because...

http://powerbrakeservice.net/bracforlimav.html

I have talked to this fellow and he does not have any accumulators at this time. He had purchased it from AC Delco and is pursuing other options.

Interesting fellow to talk to. He has a number of used TEVES II units and a number of used, good OE accumulators. His principal activity is conversion work away from the TEVES units. Has an unusual approach and we will be clarifying certain issues with him.

Kingsley

www.reattaspecialtyparts.com

[William Rule]

I wasted nearly $400.00 buying HYDAC accumulatars. The brand new one has a built in four second delay. The one from Pryor {spelling?}. I have tested them on good Reattas And they won't. Save your $$$$$$$$

[Ronnie]

Did you by the Hydac from Spinning Wheels or someone else? Please give more details about the delay. I don't understand.

[William Rule]

The Reatta's pump "pops" [Ruptures] the rubber bladder HYDAC is 1000 PSI charged new. I think some fords used 600 PSI TEVES units. Reattas pump a lot more pressure. It takes four seconds for the bladder to burst.

[Guest PontiacDude210]

Well that's an interesting development. I wondered if that would start happening when we started exploring new territory here. I have a little experience with HYDAC hydraulic systems, and I know they have made accumulators about that size That will hold higher pressure, but cost and model number and exact fitment are still unknown to me. Thanks for the effort on the HYDAC though, Ronnie. Definitely worth trying, and I think we all knew the other options here are a gamble currently.

It's looking like so far, the surefire way to get a good accumulator is to buy one from Marck. While the price is steep, he's actually more reasonable than the eBay sellers asking $400+ for n.o.s. There is another route I want to attempt, I'll let you know how it turns out. And I'll probably still buy at least one from Marck.

[William Rule]

Ronnie: No, Pryor and NAPA {NAPA gave full refund}. $400.00 accumulators are just a bad joke. I looked at a ratty Reatta in New Mexico that had a fitting brazed to the side of its' dead accumulator and a steel line run to a BIG accumulator off to the side!!!!! Worked fine. I played with the ABS on a gravel road-----worked GOOD like a TEVES should. The owner only wanted $400.00 for the whole car/good title and 1/2 gas. $400.00 accumulators are a bad joke. Delusions of grandeur.

[Ronnie]

I'm disappointed the Hydac accumulator didn't work. It's good that you were able to get a refund. I was assured via email by the owner of Spinning Wheels that the Hydac he sells would work on the Buick Reatta or I wouldn't have posted about it here. What is odd is the 1000 psi pre-charge shown on the sticker in your photo is about in the middle of the range the GM Service manual recommends. (See Barneys post below). When I look at the photo in Barney's post it seems like the rubber bladder/diaphragm should have just bottomed out in the top of the accumulator instead of rupturing.

I don't doubt it happened just the way you said for one minute. I'm just trying to understand why it didn't work.

Here are some numbers from a GM training manual..... title Teves Mark II Antilock Brake System, published by GM Service Technology Group and dated 1993.

Page 3-29 under Accumulators......they are precharged with nitrogen at 600-1300 psi.

Page 3-30 under Pump Motor.... when accumulator pressure drops below 2,000 psi, the pressure switch grounds causing the pump to run. At about 2,600 psi the pressure switch opens, turning off the pump.

Below is a picture showing the different stages of charge for accumulators. I added some dimension to the center view for reference. Diaphrams do fail but not that often, the failure is just a time factor.... like tires, sometimes they slowly leak, loosing a 1300 precharge over 20 years is not bad, most companies would not consider that a bad part, nothing last forever.

This picture also demonstrates how you can evaluate an accumulators condition by the amount of fluid pulled from the reservoir.

(1) In the first picture (left side) , note there is no fluid in the accumulator, it is pushed out by the precharge when the system is discharge.

(2) When pressurized, fluid comes in the connection at the bottom and starts to move the diaphram and compresses the precharge up to the 2600 psi pressure setting noted above.

(3) As you loose precharge, the pump is able to push more fluid into the accumulator as the precharge demises over time.

(4) Eventually the precharge gets below the point that the pressure switch can regulate the on and off of the pump motor and you have brake problems.

(5) By measuring the fluid drop in the reservoir, you can estimate the condition of accumulators. A really good accumulator will oniy allow the reservoir level to drop about 3/8 inch. As that measurement get larger... around 1/2 inch drop you need to order a new accumulator. All these rough measurements have come from trials using different accumulators.

(6) The far right picture of a depleted precharge, will give you a totally different reading if you try measuring the fluid level drop. Since there is little prepressure to push the diaphram down no fluid is pushed back into the reservoir, so in this case there is no change in the fluid level.... you will get the same condition if the diaphram has failed

[ATTACH=CONFIG]289725[/ATTACH]

[2seater]

I wonder what the actual pressure is when they go bad? Four seconds isn't much time to build pressure. I have been following this thread with interest. The Amazon supplied accumulator I purchased last year made almost no difference in the reserve capacity, so my assumption is the charge is low even in this standard replacement accumulator. I have (4) accumulators on hand, and all will only supply one to one and a half applications before pump start and I know the pressures in the system are spot on. The 24 year old one on my '90 fluid drop is approx. 5/8" and one pump to pump start. The new one from Amazon yields 1/2" fluid drop and just over one pedal application. Did anything ever develop on the possibility of a recharge?

[Guest Mc_Reatta]

Where did all the accumulators go?

While we were relishing in sub $100 balls from Amazon and debating how old they were 4 years or so ago, those Ford boys were crossing the bridge we are at now. They figured out our balls word work on their cars and were readily available and dirt cheap compared to what they were paying. So our supply has been raided by them for years now. They discovered that our ball was a bit smaller than theirs, so I imagine that the balls that Barney ran across some time ago that hit the crossbar were possibly mislabeled Ford balls. Both were designed for use on the Teves Mk II, so the operating pressures were the same, but the limited space probably caused GM to spec a smaller sized one than Ford did.

Read this 2010 forum thread and see if you don't experience deja vu:

http://www.sccoa.com/forums/showthread.php?114176-accumulator-ball

I looked at the two accumulators that are shown on the NAPA website, and neither are made for cars that used our Teves system, so it's not surprising that they would not work in our Reattas. They are made for systems that use about half of the pressure that the Teves uses. (~1500 psi vs 2600 psi)

Here is a fairly complete listing of what cars used which abs system up thru ~2003. It is not 100% complete nor totally accurate as is any database will be, but it seems pretty good. You will notice there is no listing for a 90 Reatta, and the Jags and Ferraris that used it are not shown either. But still it is a good reference to see which cars might have an chance of interchanging.

http://www.aa1car.com/library/abs_list.htm

As to whether the old ones can be recharged back to ~1000 psi to make them work as good as new, the short answer is yes they can. As long as the bladder has not ruptured, the top plug could be removes, proper charge applied, and a new plug installed. If this can be done at reasonable cost, this would be a good way to prolong the life of the units. But since the only recharge service referenced here so far (audibombs.com) runs $100 and we have a source of new ones for $150, why take a chance on an old bladder failing.

[Ronnie]

I'm anxious to see if Kingsley gets the same result of the badder rupturing when he installs the Spinning Wheels accumulator that I was assured would work.

[Ronnie]

I just noticed someone purchased a The Parts Place Buick Grand National T-Type Gnx Brake Accumulator Bowl from Amazon. Beware that iti will not work on a Buick Reatta brake system.

[Guest PontiacDude210]

I'm anxious to see if Kingsley gets the same result of the badder rupturing when he installs the Spinning Wheels accumulator that I was assured would work.

Same here. Keep us posted, sir!

[DAVES89]

Just ordered an Accumulator ball from Marck.

[NCReatta]

Dave, got your email, I will get back to you as soon as they arrive. I've put you on the waiting list.

For what it's worth, our accumulators do not look like factory. They have the outward appearance of the Hydac accumulators. But clearly they aren't the same if for no other reason that I've been running one myself with no issues with rupturing. This is due to us sending the manufacturer the specs we needed.

I also can assure you that they are not the same Hydac accumulators because they cost us much more each than the $150. They're right around the old GM list price for accumulators.

Being that they are larger, we include washers to lift the strut brace enough so that it doesn't ride on it. When it does, the pump becomes much louder than usual inside the cabin.

[ol' yeller]

I have been in touch with Kingsley. He no longer owns a Reatta so he was going to check the specs of the one he received from Spinning Wheel and then send it to Jim Finn for testing. I also ordered one from Spinning Wheel for a spare with the hope that it would work. It arrived a few days ago but I haven't had a minute to check it out and compare it to the factory one on my car. As the original one works fine now, I don't want to pull it off and replace it unless I have to. I patiently await the results from Jim and Kingsley. The replacement does have a sticker that says it has been charged to 1000 PSI.