dhaven64 Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 Hey everyone, Just wanted to start by wishing everyone a happy new year and to thank all of you for your helpful answers to my newbie questions. With that in mind, I have yet another issue I'm dealing with on my 64. I'm trying to install my rebuilt and recurved distributor and cap but I can't tell if it's all the way in properly. Needless to say, I'm not getting fuel or spark and she won't start. Help! Any ideas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1965rivgs Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 Hey everyone, Just wanted to start by wishing everyone a happy new year and to thank all of you for your helpful answers to my newbie questions. With that in mind, I have yet another issue I'm dealing with on my 64. I'm trying to install my rebuilt and recurved distributor and cap but I can't tell if it's all the way in properly. Needless to say, I'm not getting fuel or spark and she won't start. Help! Any ideas?The flange at the bottom of the distributor body should be fully seated against the block. If not, you might not engage the oil pump drive shaft and when started the engine may have no or little oil pressure. It may have been a blessing in disguise that the engine did not start. When things mesh together correctly the distributor body will fall into place.Why would you have no fuel from a distributor R &R?? Did you do some other work? Tom Mooney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhaven64 Posted January 1, 2015 Author Share Posted January 1, 2015 The flange at the bottom of the distributor body should be fully seated against the block. If not, you might not engage the oil pump drive shaft and when started the engine may have no or little oil pressure. It may have been a blessing in disguise that the engine did not start. When things mesh together correctly the distributor body will fall into place.Why would you have no fuel from a distributor R &R?? Did you do some other work? Tom MooneyThanks Tom. When I drop the distributor in, it seems to only go down so far (no matter which way i have it turned). It does click back and forth when i rotate it without pulling up on the distributor. Is that the gears meshing? I know that the distributor is not the cause of my fuel issues, i just wanted to include that info because its one of the many issues im dealing with right now. I had the engine rebuilt and I personally installed it back in the riv. I connected all of the hoses, belts, plugs, wires etc, however the cap did not have any numbers to indicate which plug wire goes where so I had to use the reference picture of the original cap which shows the firing order and placement of the wires. Also, there is one part on the Carter AFB that requires a hose, but i don't remember where the other end connects to. Could this be part of the starting problem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhaven64 Posted January 1, 2015 Author Share Posted January 1, 2015 sorry, the picture i posted was supposed to have this arrow indicating the area i was talking about. It's right next to the intake hose from the fuel pump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhaven64 Posted January 1, 2015 Author Share Posted January 1, 2015 Also, is the distributor clamp supposed to drop over the edge of the engine body or do I have it correct here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1965rivgs Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 sorry, the picture i posted was supposed to have this arrow indicating the area i was talking about. It's right next to the intake hose from the fuel pump. [ATTACH=CONFIG]288948[/ATTACH]Sounds like you are not engaging the oil pump drive shaft. If you feel you have the distributor in the correct position you can have someone crank the engine while you put steady downward pressure on the top of the distributor cap. Eventually the distributor should align with the oil pump drive saft and you should feel the distributor drop into place against the block. The nipple at the right front of the carb base is for the distributor vacuum advance vacuum line. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1965rivgs Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 Also, is the distributor clamp supposed to drop over the edge of the engine body or do I have it correct here? [ATTACH=CONFIG]288953[/ATTACH]The clamp is positioned properly. The clamp seats against the flange which I described should be against the block when all is meshed correctly. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhaven64 Posted January 1, 2015 Author Share Posted January 1, 2015 Ok thanks that solves that question lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhaven64 Posted January 1, 2015 Author Share Posted January 1, 2015 Can you tell from the picture if the distributor is seated far enough down? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhaven64 Posted January 1, 2015 Author Share Posted January 1, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhaven64 Posted January 1, 2015 Author Share Posted January 1, 2015 Any ideas what that port on the carb connects to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 Any ideas what that port on the carb connects to?re-read the last sentence in Tom's post #6. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhaven64 Posted January 1, 2015 Author Share Posted January 1, 2015 Ya thanks, I just saw that. Any ideas why I'm not getting fuel? I rebuilt the original fuel pump and when I wasn't getting fuel to the carb I put in a new one but still no joy? One thing I left out was the metal line with the wrap on it running from the exhaust manifold to the carburetor is not hooked up because it was broken off near the manifold (before I got it) Could that be contributing to my starting issues? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhaven64 Posted January 1, 2015 Author Share Posted January 1, 2015 Where does this one go to? It's located on the back side of the carb facing the firewall. Sadly, even though I took pictures when I removed the engine, they weren't clear enough for me to see where some of the hoses went. Lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Cannon Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 Can you tell from the picture if the distributor is seated far enough down?It is not. The flange that is sticking out of the block about 3/16" is supposed to be in the block flush.You can do as Tom suggested in his previous reply and crank the engine while pressing down on the distributor body. The rotor will turn, so keep your fingers clear, but press down on the body until it drops in.OR you can pull the distributor again and look down in the hole in the engine to see what the orientation of the oil pump shaft slot is. Turn it with a big screw driver to match up with the tab on the base of the distributor shaft. Then you should be able to work the distributor all the way in without cranking the engine.Do you have a factory shop manual for this car? Many of your questions are actually answered there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Cannon Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 Where does this one go to? It's located on the back side of the carb facing the firewall. [ATTACH=CONFIG]288962[/ATTACH] Sadly, even though I took pictures when I removed the engine, they weren't clear enough for me to see where some of the hoses went. LolIt is part of the automatic choke hot air system. It is not needed to get the engine running. It is needed to get it driving well.Ignore it for now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 Where does this one go to? It's located on the back side of the carb facing the firewall. [ATTACH=CONFIG]288962[/ATTACH] Sadly, even though I took pictures when I removed the engine, they weren't clear enough for me to see where some of the hoses went. Lolto the vacuum modulator on the transmission. There should be a couple of short pieces of rubber tubing that connect a steel tube to the carb and the modulator. The modulator holds transmission up shifts.Did you drop the fuel tank? If not, the problem has be in the fuel line some where - tank pick up, lines, pump, filter, carb inlet, etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhaven64 Posted January 2, 2015 Author Share Posted January 2, 2015 Thanks Jim for both answers. Yes, I didn't think it was seated all the way and I do have the manuals but I can't find any pictures of how the carb is fully connected nor can I find anything about installing the distributor in section 10-38. It says if the distributor does not seat in engine block press down lightly on the distributor... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhaven64 Posted January 2, 2015 Author Share Posted January 2, 2015 Ya the tank was dropped, cleaned out, checked for leaks and new sending unit installed. Question : I put in a fuel sending unit for air conditioning because I plan to add air later. The return fuel line is capped at the sending unit. Could this be a problem? Again, the manual just states there are 2 types of units. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhaven64 Posted January 2, 2015 Author Share Posted January 2, 2015 I have the port just below the one in my picture connected to the vacuum modulator on the transmission because the steel line connecting to the carb is screwed in?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhaven64 Posted January 2, 2015 Author Share Posted January 2, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 [ATTACH=CONFIG]288969[/ATTACH]Sorry, I looked at the original picture more as its position on a clock rather than actually looking at its location. That is not a vacuum port. It's a fresh air port for the hot air choke. A tube runs from it to the bottom of the tube inside the exhaust manifold. Part of the circuit that Jim said earlier wasn't part of the fuel delivery system.Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhaven64 Posted January 2, 2015 Author Share Posted January 2, 2015 Ah ok, so there are 2 lines that run from the exhaust manifold to the carburetor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slosteve Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 In this discussion about using a screw driver to turn the oil pump, I can't help but wonder about priming your new engine. Now, I've never built a Nailhead but the engines I have built (mostly small block Chebies) I always used a drill motor with a shaft to turn the pump 'til oil came out of the pushrods onto the rocker arms.Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhaven64 Posted January 2, 2015 Author Share Posted January 2, 2015 Couldn't I prime it by disconnecting the number one plug and turning it over 10-15 seconds at a time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slosteve Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 (edited) dhaven, I may have gotten ahead of myself here. In looking through your past posts there is no mention of a rebuilt engine. If it hasn't been, then you could easily disregard my past post re: priming. Is this engine rebuilt or has it been running before?Steve Edited January 2, 2015 by slosteve some (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhaven64 Posted January 2, 2015 Author Share Posted January 2, 2015 It has been rebuilt. Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhaven64 Posted January 2, 2015 Author Share Posted January 2, 2015 But I have yet to start it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 Couldn't I prime it by disconnecting the number one plug and turning it over 10-15 seconds at a time?NO! What you'd be doing is moving unlubed parts against each other. By priming as described about, only the oil pump will be turning and it will be putting oil on all of the machined surfaces BEFORE you put any friction to them. By 'priming the engine' as described above you're lubricating all of the moving parts BEFORE any friction is put to them. Take a valve cover off and run the pump with a drill until you see oil on the rocker shafts.You'd be well off to read some of the articles written by Russ Martin on his website. Especially the one on "15 mistakes" and "Nailing down the nailhead." http://nailheadbuick.com/Then after reading everything you can, give him a call and tell him what you're experiencing.Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhaven64 Posted January 2, 2015 Author Share Posted January 2, 2015 Ok good to know. How exactly do I go about using a drill to prime the motor with the oil pump? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Cannon Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 Ok good to know. How exactly do I go about using a drill to prime the motor with the oil pump?Read Russ Martin's material.You need to insert a drive shaft down into the distributor hole to turn the oil pump to get oil up into the top of the engine before starting it. Your engine builder should have done this or told you to do it. Check with them. You are lucky this engine did not start right away. It would have not lasted long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 I also should have added that you DO NOT want to be using the oil that you intend to run in the engine. You want to use a 'break in oil.' Read up on everything you can before trying to get this engine to fire. Jim is right as rain - you're lucky that this engine didn't fire.A drive shaft can be something as simple as a large screwdriver without a handle. Chuck it into your drill and insert the screw driver blade into the top of the oil pump.Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tenugent Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 My engine builder told me after oil is up on rockers to have someone turn motor over by hand (front of crankshaft nut)a couple of times while running pump with drill.Goodluck.T.Nugent roa 12969... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhaven64 Posted January 2, 2015 Author Share Posted January 2, 2015 Ok thank you very much for the advice. I do have break-in oil in the engine and will use the priming method you described. I'm not sure it's going to fire until I figure out the fuel issue, but I'll be one step closer to firing this bad boy up. I'll let ya know when I do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seafoam65 Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 (edited) Couldn't I prime it by disconnecting the number one plug and turning it over 10-15 seconds at a time? The whole point of priming the oiling system is to pressurize the system before turning theengine over with the bearings dry. It's probably a good idea but personally I never do that in my shopwhen installing engines and I've never had a problem.....Engines I've put in and cranked up withoutpressurizing the oil system have gone 300,000 miles or more without an overhaul. The main thing toworry about is breaking in the camshaft and lifters properly after it starts, by using the proper break in lubricants and running the engine at 1500 rpm for a while after starting. When engines are assembledall the bearings should be coated with light grease like lubriplate , the oil pump should be packed with lubriplate, and the cam lobes should becoated with break-in lube. If those things are done, then the engineshould get enough lube for initial starting. The engine I built for my GTO that was assembled that way and started without pressurizationwhen I was just a kid in 1972 is still running great today 43 years laterwithout ever being apart since.....enough said! Edited January 2, 2015 by Seafoam65 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seafoam65 Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 (edited) Let's talk about getting the distributor to go all the way in. If you are a novice you can get into trouble pushing down on the distributor while someone turns the engine over. If you don't do this right you can get the engine out of time very easily. What you need to do is get the engine on top dead center compression stroke for no. one cylinder, then drop the distributor in so that the ignition rotor is pointed at no. 1 cylinder on the cap, with the vacuum advance indexed in the position that it is supposed to be sitting at. You will find that it won't go all the way down because the oil pump drive shaft is not quite lined up with the slot on the distributor shaft. If it doesn't go down flush against the block, pull it back out and using a long flat blade screwdriver and a flashlight so you can see what you are doing, turn the oil pump drive shaft just a little bit and try it again. Don't get in a hurry, sometimes it takes 4 or five tries to get it turned just right, then the distributor will drop right in. There can be zero gap below the distributor....it isn't in if it isn't tight against the block.On your fuel delivery problem, first thing I would do is take an air nozzle if you have access to compressed air, and pressurize the gas tank with the blow nozzle with a rag wrapped around it to seal it to the gas tank neck and see if gas will flow freely out of the suction line going to the fuel pump. Do this with a helper so the helper can stick the suction line into a bottle and catch the gas so as not to spill it. This will verify that nothing is wrong with your fuel lines(like a mud dauber nest in the steel line) If you have free flow coming out of the suction hose with no leaks from the hose back at the gas tank or tank lines, then hook the suction line back up to the fuel pump and disconnect the fuel line going to the carb and stick the rubber line in a bottle and hold it in there while someone cranks the engine over and see if the pump is pumping gas into the bottle. If not,there are only two possibilities......either your fuel pump is no good or you left the fuel pump eccentric off the front of the camshaft when assembling the engine. If you have good flow comingout of the hose that hooks to the carb, the fuel delivery system is working and then if the carb isn'tletting gas into the engine you could have a stuck needle and seat in the carburetor. That is veryunlikely but I have seen this happen a few times over my 46 years of working on cars. One thing you can do is buy some berryman's B12 chemtool in the aerosol can (a spray carb cleaner) and spray itinto the air inlet on the carburetor where the choke flap is located. If your engine really isn't getting fuel and that is causing a no start, it should fire right up and run for five seconds till the chemtoolruns out. If the engine won't run on chemtool, then you have another problem besides fuel delivery.CAUTION.....do not use gasoline to prime the carb as this will result in a fire. Only use Chemtool aerosol to prime the carb! One more caution... when doing the fuel delivery tests, make sure your garage door is open so there are no fumes building up in the garage, and make sure when using a work light that it is a flashlight or a flourescent light......If you own an incandescent trouble light, throw itin the trash. you can kill yourself and/or burn your house down messing with gasoline with one of those trouble lights nearby. One more thought....if you determine the fuel pump isn't pumping and you know the fuel pump eccentric is installed on the cam, make sure thatyou don't have the fuel pump lines installed backwards on the pump.On some pumps it is possible to hook up the lines backwards if you aren't paying attention. I'm not sure if that is possible on your pumpwithout looking at it. If you think that could be the problem, you can disconnect the fuel lines from the pump and get a helper to turn the engine over while you put your fingers over the fuel pump ports. Theport that sucks on your finger is where the tank suction line hooks up. You should feel pressure coming out of the other port with the engine turning over. That's where your line to the carburetor hooks up. Edited January 2, 2015 by Seafoam65 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhaven64 Posted January 2, 2015 Author Share Posted January 2, 2015 Thanks, seafoam for your detailed instructions and cautions regarding my starting problems. I definitely will take yours and others advice in turning the oil pump gear to align with the distributor shaft tab. I read up on finding tdc on the compression stroke but how can I tell when I'm there? I know I need to remove the valve cover on the number 1 cylinder side, but how can I tell after each turn of the crank if its at tdc? As for the rebuild, the shop I used started the motor and tested it before giving it back to me. I had the carb rebuilt and I rebuilt the fuel pump and installed it along with a new water pump, hoses, belts, plugs, wires etc. I also put in a new fuel sending unit (for an air conditioned riv, but capped off the return line as I don't have air conditioning installed yet) and new rubber fuel lines front to back. I don't feel comfortable working with gas in my garage, so after installing the distributor correctly, I'll give it one more try to start it, and if it won't start, it's back to the the engine shop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seafoam65 Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 (edited) It's very easy to get it on no. 1 top dead center compression stroke. Remove the spark plug on no. 1 cylinder and turn the engine over either with the starter or a wrench on the harmonic balancer boltand when you are on compression stroke no. 1, right before the timing pointer gets to zero or Top Dead Center, if you haveyour thumb over the spark plug hole you will feel the pressure blowing on your thumb. You will only feel this on compression stroke. When you turn the engine over, every other rotation of the crankshaft you will be on no.1 TDC compression stroke when the timing cover pointer is on zero.On a nailhead buick v-8, no. 1 cylinder is the front one on the passenger side. Just so you know, it is normal procedure when assembling the engine to get the engine on no.1 Top dead center compression stroke with the timing pointer on zero when the engine is put together. Thatway the distributor is ready to drop in and the fuel pump eccentric is farthest away from the fuel pump plunger arm making the fuel pump very easy to bolt on. Edited January 2, 2015 by Seafoam65 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Cannon Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 Ya the tank was dropped, cleaned out, checked for leaks and new sending unit installed. Question : I put in a fuel sending unit for air conditioning because I plan to add air later. The return fuel line is capped at the sending unit. Could this be a problem? Again, the manual just states there are 2 types of units.Are you sure you connected the line that runs up to the fuel pump to the port on the sending unit that is the supply port? and not the return port?How full is your gas tank? You need to get fuel up to the fuel pump. The fuel pump will not suck air very far. I'd say start with 1/2 tank of gas and perhaps raise the back of the car while cranking the engine until you see gas come out of the fuel supply line going to the carb. Have it flow into a can.Then lower the rear of the car and hook the fuel line up to the carb. It will still take several seconds to fill the carb bowls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1965rivgs Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 (edited) The whole point of priming the oiling system is to pressurize the system before turning theengine over with the bearings dry. It's probably a good idea but personally I never do that in my shopwhen installing engines and I've never had a problem.....Engines I've put in and cranked up withoutpressurizing the oil system have gone 300,000 miles or more without an overhaul. The main thing toworry about is breaking in the camshaft and lifters properly after it starts, by using the proper break in lubricants and running the engine at 1500 rpm for a while after starting. When engines are assembledall the bearings should be coated with light grease like lubriplate , the oil pump should be packed with lubriplate, and the cam lobes should becoated with break-in lube. If those things are done, then the engineshould get enough lube for initial starting. The engine I built for my GTO that was assembled that way and started without pressurizationwhen I was just a kid in 1972 is still running great today 43 years laterwithout ever being apart since.....enough said!I agree. In the field priming the oil system is rarely done. I`ve installed...over 100?... engines from 4 bangers to heavy duty diesels and have rarely pre-primed any. Having said that, time is usually the reason for not doing the priming, and if one has the time, AND THE EXPERTISE, it cant hurt. Problem is, by the time one re-installs the distributor, the pressure has dissipated from the oil galleys and wont be present again until engine start-up but , as I said, it cant hurt. There should not be anything that is "dry" in the engine after a competent rebuild. The assembly lube is slightly less viscous than lithium grease and sticks around for quite awhile. The cam and lifters should be bathed in break in treatment so no worries there. The area that I am most concerned with is splash on the cylinder walls for the benefit of the rings and not much can be accomplished with a drill turning the oil pump as compared with a running engine.It`s very important not to flood the motor/cylinder walls with fuel attempting start-up as it is possible to wash whatever oil is present in this area clean with the fuel. Be careful not to over prime the engine with fuel. So, I am more concerned with excessive carb choke or lack of pulloff after initial startup than I am about pre-oiling the engine.Also very important to have a mechanical oil pressure gauge installed to watch the oil pressure as the engine starts and runs and comes up to operating temp. Another aspect to watch upon initial startup is to be sure the radiator stays full after the engine starts and as the thermostat opens. A rebuilt engine will get hot very quickly if there is not sufficient coolant present. Have a gallon of coolant ready to go and present within arm`s reach!Just some thoughts... Tom Mooney Edited January 2, 2015 by 1965rivgs (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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