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Marcus J

Oil for '63 - 425

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I don't really think it's a conspiracy that they are lowering levels of zinc every couple of years. It is out in the open for all to see. The problem is the collector cars are a niche that they don't care to maintain. This isn't really a surprise. It is also a fact that the new windows software won't work very well in my old atari tape drive computer. Never did i endorse a specific brand of oil. It is more about what the oil has in it.

Our engines have far more force generated where the lifter and camshaft meet. This is pretty much an antiquated technology that isn't supported by today's conventional motor oil made for overhead cams and roller motors. If you don't want to believe it despite all the literature from reputable sources out there that is your choice, but sticking your head in the sand does not mean a problem doesn't exist. Some of us drive these cars instead of treating them as trailer queens, putting far more than 1000 miles on them a year, so to us the difference may mean much more.

Now about the small metal parts manufacturers not knowing more about metallurgy. I don't know that anyone said they did. No one said the big companies didn't know. I said they didn't give a crap, and i stand by that. They support new cars for the most part and that is where they butter their bread. Are you young or would this be the first time a large corporation has lied to you? As i sourced earlier, even GM has admitted they see a problem pattern forming. That is about the best you are going to get as far as big corporations accepting blame. as far as knowing about metallurgy, i bet Harvey Crane and people like him in the industry know as much about metallurgy as anyone alive when it comes to car parts and how they interact. All of these guys have spent more time shaping, polishing and watching real world examples of the interactions of car parts than any 10 mobil engineers i would be willing to bet.

Lastly, to call the smaller companies bathtub mixers is a bit of a ignorant statement. A lot of our advancement in the automotive field came from small operations or even just one guy. Read up on how Brodix started. The guy worked at a family owned foundry and designed and cast his own heads for his hobby, then started selling to local racers. Lucas Oil and Brad Penn are bathtub mixers, that is pretty funny crap..but ignorant.

-Jeff

I add my own very small but sufficient amount of ZDDP to offset the lack of same in the newer formulations in order to keep my cams and lifters happy in all of the cars. So no head in the sand here.

Driving the cars is understood, and maybe even more than 1000 miles, but I question if these motors are being run at or even near red line for extended periods if at all, like racing engines that may benefit from alleged super oil. If overkill makes one happy, then there is nothing wrong with that, but it is not needed for the majority of these applications as the cars are used far less rigorously. I redline the LT-5 to 7200+ in routine drives, but the oil temperature never even bumps off of normal. Nothing has exploded.

I don't even own a trailer.

I never referred to Brad Penn or Lucas as bathtub mixers. You mentioned those names, so ignorant would seem inappropriate at best, or simply a mistake on your part.

As I said at the outset, rarely will two people agree on this, but I am no more wrong than you, nor no less wrong, if you prefer it said that way.

Use whatever you may wish, as do I.

Again, Have a Merry Christmas!

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Obviously this is just theorycraft on my part and a bit of speculation, but with the amount of cam and lifter failures the industry is seeing and the way the majority drive these cars i really doubt it is due to red-lining them. I would think an educated guess would lean towards start-up and the seconds prior to getting everything oiled well that cause the most damage.

As for adding zddp to current oil, that has been shown to be a problem as well. Maybe you have found the magic mixture, but without a chemistry degree and experience in the field i would not feel confident mixing zddp with a current oil and hoping for the best. Today's oil has detergents and other compounds that may actually counteract zinc. Does it make sense to add zddp to an oil that has detergents put in it to specifically counteract metal deposits? Probably not i think. The K.I.S.S. policy would seem to appropriate here. No need to make it complex, just use an oil with an older formulation made for when we had zinc in the oil.

I personally don't want to be buying lifters and cams for the nailheads any more than necessary. They aren't like replacing a set for a small block chevy back in the day and even if they were i have other things i could be spending my time on. When i fix something i want it to stay fixed for a while, but that is just me i guess. Proper oil seems like a small investment to help ensure bigger money doesn't come out of my pockets for larger repairs.

You were wrong on so many fronts yet you seemed to skip right past addressing them. Brad Penn grade 1 oil can be had for $70 or thereabouts for a case of 12. I don't know where you learned math, but in my neck of the woods that comes out to around $5.50 a quart. I don't know where you got 24 bucks a piece, but you might re-check that.

Some guy mixing oil in a bathtub and adding unknown chemicals does not inspire confidence, or somehow create motor longevity. - I was answering that specifically and thought you were calling Bad Penn, Lucas oil, etc. bathtub mixers. If you were not then you need to clarify because i don't see how that could be taken any other way. If you were talking about me adding chemicals then i suppose you would be right, except i don't and would not delve into a chemistry experiment such as you do by adding zddp to a current oil. Hopefully it works well for you, i just would not feel comfortable doing that myself.

Oh, one more thing in closing - when you find that police, taxi, or other commercial fleet running 50s and 60s motors let me know, otherwise you are comparing apples to oranges. Chances are that they are not running flat tappet motors like we are talking about. I know there are thousands of threads on the subject at hamb and a host of others, so the info. is out there if people want to find it. I'm not going to be that front man for older oil formulations, everyone can make their own decisions. I just hope they are informed decisions where people look at all the information, digest it, then decide for themselves.

In the end i'll gladly pay 40 bucks an oil change if it even drops my chance of cam/lifter failure by a couple percentage points. I personally think it is a cheap form of insurance and that the amount of protection it affords is far greater than a couple of percentage points, but that could only be tested on a mule motor with several thousands miles put on it. Maybe someday someone will do it, but i doubt you will see it coming from the oil companies or new car manufacturers. It will likely come from a cam/lifter source or a racer if i had to bet on it. Racers love to play mad scientist and maybe someone has already done it and i just haven't been looking in the right place. If so, i will report back, otherwise i will just leave it as that and quit harping about it.

-Jeff

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Use whatever oil you wish, what you do causes me no concern.

The only "facts" you present are expressions of what you think, which has value, but could be as "wrong" as you claim me to be.

Although you indeed state that it is "theory craft or speculation on your part" you then proceed to treat it as proven fact, and cite it as reasons supporting your contention that I am wrong. While I very well may be, the logic stream that you used is invalid, and therefore proves nothing.

I "was wrong on so many fronts", well to be correct what you should have said is that you simply think differently on many fronts. You are as absent proof as I said most all are, as am I, when this topic comes up.

I do not need to clarify anything, and you concluded, wrongly so, that I was referring to names that you mentioned as bathtub mixers.

My math skills are fine, I again did not mention your beloved Brad Penn oil, which is likely a fine product, but not the oil that I was referring to.

I was referring to Royal Purple XPR Racing Oil in the 05 30 variety, which I used years ago in all of my cars. This oil had more than enough Zinc and Phosphorous for even Riviera engines of the 60's, but the price was often around $18.00 per quart until I started buying it bulk. However, that was far less than I was paying for my other high Z/P oil, 5W30 Motul 300V Ester Core 4T Racing Oil. That is likely the best oil made, and if racing is planned that is my fill of choice, but at close to $30.00 per quart, and needing 8 quarts for the one car, I use it not very often anymore..

It is a superb oil, but unless racing, it was like using a Ferrari instead of a Chevy just to go get milk.

I stated at the outset, oil preference is typically a very personal thing that few agree on.

Mobil 1 has been used in fleets since the mid 70's, not just in new engines, but back when engines all utilized cams and lifters. While the formulation has changed as engines have, they have had hundreds of engineers working on that oil for over 40 years, far longer than many of the boutique companies have been in business! They still offer oil with higher levels of needed Zinc and Phosphorous if you feel so moved.

I do not choose Mobil 1 because it is cheap, nor would I choose a different oil simply because it is expensive. My choice is rooted in their history and experience, combined with never hearing a single story of engine failure related to their product.

Having said that, I would now expect to hear of dozens of purported failures, but exactly like you, I would attribute most to lack of lubrication on repeated dry start up, human error, or failure to keep it checked and clean.

At this point, all I can say is choose the oil that you feel most comfortable with after reading as much as one can stand of oil studies.

Change it at relatively short intervals, check it often, and use the highest quality filter that you trust, and all should be as good as can be.

And never bring this topic up at dinner!

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What a p---ing contest! With my aging equipment, I can't compete. Reminds me, time for a PSA check.

X2 but I had prostate cancer surgery in '03 and I don't have have to check that any more. I'm out of this thead so just went back and deleted each post that I made.

Now I have a clear conscience and won't bother to touch on this subject again.

Edited by RivNut (see edit history)

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What a p---ing contest! With my aging equipment, I can't compete. Reminds me, time for a PSA check.

No contest here.

Simply an exchange of views.

However, it is time to put this to rest.

But not until I say one final thing.

Let there be no disputing this.

This is as FACTUAL as it gets.

Today I will be ordering a case of BRAD PENN 05W30 oil.

My reasons?

Jeff seems to really love it, and gave good reasons why.

It's made in Bradford, Pa.; Nice area.

While not a synthetic, my usage patterns for the collector cars don't warrant synthetic, although it couldn't hurt it either.

The cost is right!

I can get it from Amazon!

But the REAL REASON................................

My Riv is green just like the oil!:cool:

No disrespect to Royal Purple, Red Line, Motul, or even Mobil 1.

Brad Penn claims that the oil has extra "clinginess".

While it may or may not, if it actually does, that would indeed be a very important factor, as these cars spend most of their time covered, sometimes with weeks or months between start-up.

Jeff and I concur on that being a critical time for wear and if this "clinginess" exists, that would be a plus.

While I cannot predict if their detergent, and additive packages are better or worse than any others, one review I read stated that the engine was "noticably quieter" on start up than before, which gives at least anecdotal confirmation of the clinginess claim.

I still will avoid talk of religion, politics and oil at the dinner table.

In the spring, I will comment on any observations once the oil is changed, if there is any noticeable difference.

I happily end my personal "bathtub mixing" of oil and additives, although Motul gets the nod if I ever race one again.

Now, what about the best filter?...................................

Just kidding, come back out!

Oh, and one post script.

I suspect some folks ( not Jeff ) who rebuild or change motor components, may first install a very high quality oil, but not specific "Break In" oil.

I used to make that mistake myself.

The resulting damage, once the cam lube coating wears off could lead to premature component failure down the road that then is wrongly blamed on the oil being used at that time.

Just an observation.

Edited by DRM500RUBYZR1
p.s. (see edit history)

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Improper break in is a big cause of failure for sure, but i think we are seeing more failures than a few people with improper break-in procedures. Bottom line - if you don't have a cataytic converter you sure as hell don't need an oil that makes trade-offs in zinc and phosphorous to extend cat life. The new stuff was not made with our motors in mind and that is fine. As long as people are making products that will keep them going i don't suppose it matters.

Sorry if this came off as a big pissing match, but i'm a former Marine and enjoy a good exchange of views now and then. That's the way we learn right? At least that is the way it works for me. One other thing - the cam companies are recommending break in oil and their own specific brand of break in lubes for new builds. Some are even recommending continued running of additives for the life of the car just to cover their butts as well, but i think just getting an oil from Lucas, Brad Penn, or something along those lines will cover it after the 3000 mile break-in period.

I look forward to hearing what you think about the Brad Penn and if you think it helps Marty. Until someone takes pics of a fresh build at 3k, 10k, etc. and can show cam and lifter wear i don't think we will hear the end of the debate. The problem with that is who is going to do the bad side of things and rebuild an older flat tappet with nothing but new oil? i sure don't want to throw cash into something knowing the outcome could possibly be the death of a nailhead and another rebuild. I guess we will have to call it good enough if we get 100 people running old oil formulations that have 100k on their motors and whatnot.

-Jeff

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I didn't see it as a pissing match. To me it read like two grown men expressing opposing views in a very civilized manner. Both had valid points to their arguments. I enjoyed the thread and found it to be informative.

Arnulfo

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