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Marcus J

Oil for '63 - 425

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I have no idea what type of oil the previous owner used as I purchased my 1963 from an auction. It has the 425 engine, any advise??

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A good choice would be the motor oil that Hemmings Motor News magazine sells. It is blended for old cars and has all the zinc and

phosphorous required for old engines. If your engine is in excellent condition I would go no thicker than 10W40...... 50 weight oil is OK for use in worn

out engines with excessive bearing clearances.

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Something with Zinc and Phosphate at levels no less than 1,000 ppm (parts per million.) for flat tappet engines. I know that Mobil 1 synthetics have a few that fit this description. Most oils designed for diesels also fill this requirement; Shell's Rotella comes to mind. You give no indication of how many miles are on the car. In higher mileage engines, you'll want to run a little higher viscosity. 15W-50 Mobil 1 synthetic is this writer's oil of choice. What ever oil you choose, make sure that it has everything you need in it; don't be mixing additives in with the factories formula.

Ed

I am in agreement with Ed. A few other brands that meet your needs would be Brad Penn, Driven (formerly Joe Gibbs), TORCO, Royal Purple and Amsoil. They tend to be a bit more expensive than the Mobil 1 but are fine products.

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Brad Penn grade 1 high performance oil has 1400 ppm zinc and 1300-1400 ppm phosphate. It also is carried by amazon, my wife's favorite place to visit online.

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Great point Ed,I never understood how someone would spend 4-6 thousand on a rebuild and use cheep oil and filter.Russ Martin sent me a Napa Gold filter #1049 when i ordered rebuild parts.I use Brad Penn 10W40(the green oil) after Goe Gibbs breakin oil.T.N...

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I'm not going to argue cost Ed. to each his own. i am personally willing to spend a little more to ensure i am running what it needs. It's like insurance to me. I'll skimp other places before i skimp on oil or filters. I totally understand why someone would pay a liittle less for mobil 1 synthetic, but saving 10 bucks for an oil change isn't worth it to me.

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For my 67, I use a 50- 50 mix of Brad Penn;10-30 and 15-40. It's what the local speed shop stocks, and they gave me their blessing. I mix it first, then away we go. Car only gets 1000 miles per yr- has 69,000 miles 99% sure original.Doesn't burn any oil.

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I should add that the shop owners told me that Brad Penn is one of the few oils whose viscosities can be blended.

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That's fine and dandy Ed, but i imagine the new porches don't need as much zinc as a 64 Buick. They, like just about anything else nowadays have much tighter tolerances, better machining practices, and roller rockers, so they have no need for the extra zinc. Comparing the needs of one against the other is like apples and oranges. There has been a lot of talk about this and the need for zinc in older motors and horror stories about shelled cams and the like in older cars. I just want to make sure i'm not the guy who finds out the hard way.

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I've been using Mobil 1 in my Ford Explorers for 20 yrs; I usually get 150,000 miles or more rolled up before I sell them, and I have never added as much as a drop of oil between my 9000 mile oil changes. Even when I take it to Jiffy Lube, and they promise to top off any fluids, I have never been abl to take advantage of their deal. To be honest, I don;t even look at the dipstick anymore. I do, however, listen and look for odd noises or puddles or leaks.

But I feel better with some zinc sloshing around in the old Riv.

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Not me, that's for sure. I've heard good things about Rotella, but I've also heard it has a lot of detergents that can be harmful to old engines. That's the problem; too many guys ( like me) saying 'I heard this about that.." Maybe we hear too much.

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Yes, we might hear too much, but balance that against the major oil companies telling us what they think we need and the "studies" they put out. The auto industry has been hand in hand with the oil industry for quite some time. They don't want you to drive a 50 year old car. There isn't enough profit in it for them. They would like for you to buy a brand new car every 5 years and not have to support 50 years of auto technology. Cash for clunkers fit in perfect with that theme. So now we have a lot of newer vehicles with roller rockers and new oil formulations specifically designed around that. So you mean to tell me the oil i put in my new(er) F150 has the same requirements as my 64 buick. Guess what, not really. The motors are night and day different. They both are internal combustion engines and that is about where it stops. You can look at the major oil group studies and see what they say. I can save you some time if you would like. The new oil is fine and dandy and there shouldn't be a problem. Now i can point you to a few tech bulletins put out by camshaft companies who were having to warranty way to many cams of late : http://wasaac.org/techdocs/compcams.pdf ; http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/flat-tappet-cam-tech/ ; http://www.aera.org/engine-professional/flat-tappet-camshafts/

I'm sure you can find more if you need to but it comes down to this - The epa has decided it doesn't want to see our old cars driving around and has reduced zinc and phosphorous amounts to catastrophic levels for most classic cars. You can say the amount of classic car failures is insignificant i suppose and hope you are never one of those guys who has a cam go flat or you can decide that forewarned is forearmed and go from there. I believe the problem is legitimate and more than just a couple of guys. The cam companies are screaming about it as they lose warranty money day after day. That is about all i need to hear. The trick of being able to use rotella t is pretty much gone. It is now being reduced every couple of years until it sits where they want it to. What the epa is doing is akin to not outlawing guns, but instead making it illegal to purchase or use lead ammunition.

Well people will believe what they want to believe. Even if the truth is somewhere in the middle i will lean towards caution and maybe not look at the oil companies recommendations and instead look to the guys running their cars far harder than i will be, like track racers. Those guys run their cars hard and determine in the real world what works and what does not. It isn't a theory, it isn't a paper, it is reality. When they notice things breaking with one oil and not so much with another word gets around. The Brad Penn oil seems to have a good name in those circles. I'm sure a few other companies are making good stuff as well, but i think every year the list gets shorter.

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If you read the Mobil 1 recommendation sheet, it makes reference to the flat tappet engines and tells what viscosities contain what levels of zinc and phosphorous. You'll be safe as long as the levels of zinc and phosphorus meet the minimum requirements. Same with any brand of oil. I know a guy who has a 4.0 Liter in-line six Jeep. 470,000 miles. Doesn't burn any oil. Uses Shell Rotella diesel oil every 3,000 miles. Who's to say????

One of the main differences is that synthetic oils break down at a higher temp than fossils....learned that while Nascar racing.

after break-in, flat-tappet plain bearing engines do seem to live longer on the synthetics, I ran a ski boat(350 chev) on Mobil-1 for 300 hard hours & it looked like new when I pulled the pan.

what I am trying to figure out is that how the older worn engines behave on the stuff....

I DO know that my worn out small block chevy engine & Quickchange rear-end(in a racecar) leaked like crazy on Mobil-1(which I got for free at the time)....never lost oil pressure mind you, I guess the stuff is too slippery for old hard oil seals.....upon changing the engine & rear back to quality fossil oils they quit leaking.....

FWIW, I run rotella in the old stuff & break-in rebuilt old stuff with Gibbs(if the customer will spring for it) or with a zinc additive.... I have seen a cam failure in a 351w with today's oil, customer had no further problems after putting in a quality camshaft......I suspect heat treating on cheap cam that his motor came with......

great forum topic that has been beat to death on the HAMB

lotsa different experiences.....

be interesting how the Nailheads out there are doing

peace

ks

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I have no idea what type of oil the previous owner used as I purchased my 1963 from an auction. It has the 425 engine, any advise??

Damn, looks like I opened a can of worms here! I'll throw all of the recommendations into a hat and have the wife pick a name!! :D

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Something with Zinc and Phosphate at levels no less than 1,000 ppm (parts per million.) for flat tappet engines. I know that Mobil 1 synthetics have a few that fit this description. Most oils designed for diesels also fill this requirement; Shell's Rotella comes to mind. You give no indication of how many miles are on the car. In higher mileage engines, you'll want to run a little higher viscosity. 15W-50 Mobil 1 synthetic is this writer's oil of choice. What ever oil you choose, make sure that it has everything you need in it; don't be mixing additives in with the factories formula.

Ed

Ed, the motors definitely been rebuilt but the odometers stuck at 35,xxx so as for the mileage....who knows!! I should probably start a new thread but do you know of anyone who repairs gauge clusters? Thx

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It's an argument that has been going on for the last few years and reminds me of the climate change topic. What it comes down to is this - We have oil producers on one side saying the oil is good to go and we have cam producers and engine builders on the other side saying they are seeing damage from the new oils. The cam producers and builders have more than anecdotal evidence to back their claims including pictures of cams run on the newer oils after a break-in period.

Zinc and phosphorous cause damage to catalytic converters, so it doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure that the epa would not be a fan of the older oil formulations. It isn't just our industry either, it cross over into aviation as well. http://generalaviationnews.com/2013/08/28/what-you-dont-know-about-zinc-can-hurt-you/ ; I found this particularly informative: http://www.ttalk.info/Zddp.htm ; http://www.motor.com/article.asp?article_ID=1604

So we can believe the epa and oil manufacturers, or we can believe the engine rebuilders association, cam manufacturers like crane/competition cams/isky/etc., racers, or even General Motors who has known about the issue for quite a while. Hell,even the oil companies have admitted to "starting to see a pattern forming" . Now i'm not trying to be the boy who cried wolf. It just seems plain as day and i don't want to be the poor sap left without a chair when the music stops. There is a problem and it isn't heresay. There is hard data including pictures and scientific tests if you care enough to find them. You have the word of major manufacturers of auto parts and engine builders. Run what you want to run, but at least be informed and understand how the game is running and where we fit in.

-Jeff

Edited by devildog93 (see edit history)

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Jeff et al..... my question, for those of you that put some real miles on their nailheads, what oil are you running?

from what I read we have some with brad penn, mobil 1 & rotella....others? what did matt martin recommend?

I forgot to mention additives like Lucas Oil stabilizer...I have heard great reports with the stuff.....

thanks

ks

Edited by slacker1965 (see edit history)

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I drive my 65 Riv w/super wildcat about 100 mi. a week, especially now at this time of year. I use Lucas oil Classic and Hot Rod 10w40, and Napa's high dollar oil filter.....

I too have been interested in the Lucas oil stabilizer. I think part # 10001.

Buddy

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In other oil discussions have written that I gravitate to the Havoline jug at the auto parts. On some containers in little letters it says Texaco. And that simply pleases me. I get the image of an Indian driving his Cadillac convertible through a field of oil wells. Whether it is true or not doesn't really matter.

Had the cars a long time and they ain't broke.

Bernie

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In other oil discussions have written that I gravitate to the Havoline jug at the auto parts. On some containers in little letters it says Texaco. And that simply pleases me. I get the image of an Indian driving his Cadillac convertible through a field of oil wells. Whether it is true or not doesn't really matter.

Had the cars a long time and they ain't broke.

Bernie

Buddy & Bernie

thanks for the replies....I'm glad to hear that you aren't having any problems with modern blends Bernie....I expect the biggest issue is with newly rebuilt motors that are tight(even after break-in).

ks

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I work with a couple of guys who drive old cars every day back and forth to work. One swears by Brad Penn, the other is a cheapster and uses the same rotella blend he runs in the wrecker. The problem with the latter is that they can change the rotella makeup on a whim, and the formulation is already on the list to be changed again. Neither has had any problems yet, but i lean towards the Brad Penn or something along those lines that is close to the same make-up the cars had when they were in their prime of life originally. A lot of smaller companies make a classic car oil and i know a lot of people that have their favorites such as Lucas, Elf, Brad Penn, Joe Gibbs racing, etc. I would pick one you feel comfortable and go with that. Myself, i am just staying away from the big dogs such as Mobil, Castrol, and their like. They have moved on and we are a blip on the radar. They don't cater to us like Brad Penn and the smaller companies do. We are the target market for the latter of the two groups.

I'm not assigning blame, time marches on after all. The epa and the major manufacturers are moving on and we just don't factor in when they make decisions. The best way i can voice my displeasure is by not supporting them with my dollar, or at least that is my line of thought.

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I doubt that any of those smaller companies have their own refineries, there is not one on every corner. You would have to do high volume business to have your own oils blended. Do you think they just pick a blend and additive package and relabel it for sale under private name? Food for thought for those that have more insight into the market place and distribution aspect.

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Well, being in oil country and having lived here most of my life this is something i know a little about as far as the refineries go. In Oklahoma we have 5, from Conoco which produces 200,000 barrels a day to Wynnewood refining which produces 70,000 barrels a day. Texas has 24 that go from 200k a day to almost 600k barrels a day. So, to answer your question....no, i don't think the big corporations own them all and we are getting oil from middlemen. I know that Brad Penn has their own refinery and produces their own product.

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If you want to keep the party friendly, avoid talking politics, religion, the constitution, specifically it's intent and interpretation, AND OIL!

If you decide to live dangerously and bring up oil, you will quickly realize that everyone has a unique opinion, most all devoid of proven fact.

One man's preferred motor potion is another man's avowed engine death prescription.

I have no idea what oil is really the best, but logic rarely fails, so I will try to look at it logically.

1- Oil, rarely if ever kills an engine. Usually it is a lack of same that is the usual culprit.

2- Clean oil of any type, is likely better than dirty oil of any other type.

3- Price means little or nothing as a gauge of oil effectiveness.

4- Using synthetic oil and dumping it every year with leas than 1000 miles of use is odd and wasteful.

5- Using $25.00 per quart racing oil in an engine that only goes to Sunday cruises appears foolish.

6- Succumbing to the belief that nefarious conspiracy plots exist between oil companies & automakers gives both far more credit for smarts than they warrant.

7- Oil did not prolong the life of dinosaurs.

8- Parts fail.

9- Small metal parts manufacturers may not know the most about metallurgy, especially when compared to the R&D dept's. of major multinational oil companies.

10- Police, Taxi, and Rental fleets, see more abuse than most any other motorized segment, so "I'm havin what they're havin".

11- Some guy mixing oil in a bathtub and adding unknown chemicals does not inspire confidence, or somehow create motor longevity.

12- Oil today is FAR more sophisticated than oil of yesteryear, not necessarily better but far more complex, and likely better.

12- If 100 people read this, there is an absolute chance that none will agree with it.

Marty won't tell you what oil he uses.

On the chance that you might see me doing an oil change, I will conceal the jugs.

Because if I say white, you will say black.

It matters more to buy a quality filter, than arguing oil.

Last but not least, I also buy SMALL quantities of specific additives.

Only I will never tell you what they are.

No one will ever know.

Everyone can choose for themselves.

Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukkah, Winter Solstice, Festivus, or whatever else and have a very Happy and Healthy 2015!

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I don't really think it's a conspiracy that they are lowering levels of zinc every couple of years. It is out in the open for all to see. The problem is the collector cars are a niche that they don't care to maintain. This isn't really a surprise. It is also a fact that the new windows software won't work very well in my old atari tape drive computer. Never did i endorse a specific brand of oil. It is more about what the oil has in it.

Our engines have far more force generated where the lifter and camshaft meet. This is pretty much an antiquated technology that isn't supported by today's conventional motor oil made for overhead cams and roller motors. If you don't want to believe it despite all the literature from reputable sources out there that is your choice, but sticking your head in the sand does not mean a problem doesn't exist. Some of us drive these cars instead of treating them as trailer queens, putting far more than 1000 miles on them a year, so to us the difference may mean much more.

Now about the small metal parts manufacturers not knowing more about metallurgy. I don't know that anyone said they did. No one said the big companies didn't know. I said they didn't give a crap, and i stand by that. They support new cars for the most part and that is where they butter their bread. Are you young or would this be the first time a large corporation has lied to you? As i sourced earlier, even GM has admitted they see a problem pattern forming. That is about the best you are going to get as far as big corporations accepting blame. as far as knowing about metallurgy, i bet Harvey Crane and people like him in the industry know as much about metallurgy as anyone alive when it comes to car parts and how they interact. All of these guys have spent more time shaping, polishing and watching real world examples of the interactions of car parts than any 10 mobil engineers i would be willing to bet.

Lastly, to call the smaller companies bathtub mixers is a bit of a ignorant statement. A lot of our advancement in the automotive field came from small operations or even just one guy. Read up on how Brodix started. The guy worked at a family owned foundry and designed and cast his own heads for his hobby, then started selling to local racers. Lucas Oil and Brad Penn are bathtub mixers, that is pretty funny crap..but ignorant.

-Jeff

Edited by devildog93 (see edit history)

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