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Enginbe cradle sub frame bushings


Guest speegt
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Ok I need to replace all the subframe /engine cradle bushings in my 1989 reatta , I have read so many post on this and seen a lot of different opinions. Can someone please give me the most cost effective part numbers for the bushings?. And where to get them ? iknow this has been posted a lot but ive seen people use these they use these im confused , I just want to know what will work before I order them and exactly what I need . thanks

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My 88 has 6 mounts and thought all of them did, 2 behind the wheel area to frame and one up front on each side, The front ones on mine are covered by abs plastic cover so they don't really stand out when just looking underneath. I ordered all 6 for mine from Amazon. If they had decided to put a cover over the inboard rear mounts like the front, I don't think the rust problems would be as bad for those mounts. Since I have not had a chance to install mine yet, hope to this weekend all I can confirm is that they fit the D opening well and look like they should bolt up fine. You will need to re-use the bolts because the ones in the Dorman kit are different thread and size. I will post a picture of Dorman part in my thread so everyone can see what they look like before installing them. I am planning to do a write up with picture on my install.

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Yes, there are six total, three per side. And don't plan on reusing any bolts, as they are usually badly eaten away where they pass throuh the bushing. That's assuming they come out in one piece to begin with.

I heavily recommend having all new hardware on hand before starting this, as you will almost certainly be caught without something you'll need otherwise. I was able to salvage nothing for reuse when I replaced bushings on my 91 coupe.

KDirk

Edited by KDirk (see edit history)
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I agree only re-use the bolts if they come out clean. Out of the 3 on the right side, outer rear bolt is stuck in the bushing sleeve, inner rear snapped off, and front unbolted and came out clean. I am going to order 6 bolts to make sure I have all I need even thought I do have one good one so far.

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What washers bushings are you referring to? The Dorman kit has 5 Parts, One large heavy top washer that has an internal metal channel D shaped that goes thru the top bushing which is also D shaped where it goes thru the frame, the channel also keeps bolt alignment, then bottom bushing and large metal washer, and the supplied bolt. I will be able to take picture tomorrow of the Dorman Kit.

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Guest PontiacDude210

This would all make much more sense if all the info was in one place somewhere with sizes, kit contents, and cross compatibility ref. I'm planning on going the "follow M55's instructions loosely and wing it with an aftermarket kit" route. Chasing down all the NOS parts looks like a nightmare "you need 6, and this dealer has 3 and eBay has 2..." I'm also planning on fabricating a new washer. It's unclear whether the Dorman kit contains that washer, so I'm preparing for the worst. I didn't really worry much about it until I heard a family member who owned a car on the same platform with many less miles dropped their motor in the mall parking lot. Also given some thought to having a frame shop do it. Lot less work, but not as much fun.

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The Dorman 924-005 Kits does have large supporting washing that holds up the supplied lower busing in the kit. All I can say is all of these parts are much more beefier than the factory set, as far as bushing size and thickness and top and bottom metal parts are also thicker and larger. You will see when I post some pictures tomorrow.

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PD210,

OK... I'm going to post this here again. Maybe someone can make a "sticky" out of it.

Below you will find all the pertinent information regarding the replacement parts (including part numbers) as well as photos.

These parts are the original parts that were installed on these cars as they were being assembled at the Lansing, MI. facility.

I've owned an "88, an '89 and a 1990 and have found that all three model years have these parts installed. This does not mean that all cars off the assembly line have these exact parts. I say this beacuse the FSM and my '90 differ.

Currently, of the parts shown below, there are three that are no longer available. They are:

1.) #1631395 (cover left)

2.) #1631396 (cover right)

3.) #1626368 (Cover Spacer)

#1. and #2. are the plastic (vinyl I believe) covers found at the front ends of engine cradle (sub-frame) near the fog light assemblies.

I've included four pics of these covers below. Two pics show the "R" and "L" embossed onto the plastic. As mentioned, they can not be bought new. Some of the vendors on this forum may be able to help locate good used ones if you need them. Since they are made of plastic, most cars should still have them mounted on the frame.

Item #3, the cover spacer is another story. These typicaly weld themselves to the bolt and are destroyed along with the bolt during removal. These three are the items that need to be replaced but cannot be had new. My local Buick /GMC dealed scoured the nationwide networked stock inventory for the Cover Spacers and gave me a list of three dealerships that had a couple left in stock. I managed to get a couple and someone else beat me to the last four located in Massachutsets. I have to say this, even though none of these Cover Spacers can be found through traditional means, it doesn't mean they can't be found at all. For example, soon after loosing out on those four in Mass. someone listed a set on Ebay as part of a group that included the insulators and bolts. So there are some out there in private hands but they are far and few inbetween. If one were to post in the Buy/Sell section, maybe someone out there would be willing to part with some. Maybe not. I think this is the biggest reason for the push to find more readily available substitutes such as the often mentioned Dorman insulator sets and those that are found on Fieros and later model GM "E" bodies. I considered this as well and decided to let the more adventuous among us perform the experimentation.

The question was asked what parts are required to be replaced in addition to the insulators themselves. The answer is: 1. the bolts. 2. the cover spacers and 3. the nuts that hold the insulators in position during installation. (These were originally nyloc-nuts but I found that the "spinloc" nuts work just as well if not better.)

So, as a complete parts list to have on hand B-4 starting the job of replacing the original style insulators (isolators)for the '88 and '89, you will need:

1.) Six insulators. GM Part number - 1627359

2.) Six bolts. GM Part number - 11517635

3.) Six cover spacers. GM Part number - 1626368 (Unavailable)

4.) Eighteen Metric Flange Nuts. Part number: MFN7132 - ("Spin-Loc" M6x1thread)

If you choose this route you are either going to be very lucky and find that you can re-use the six Cover Spacers (not likely). If unable to re-use, you will have to find a source to buy them or find someone local to you and have them fabricated. Good Luck.

Now, just having said that the '88-'89 & '90 use the same insulator, I just checked the FSM's for the '88, '89 and '90 MY's.

The '88 and '89 MY's are the same and use the above mentioned parts. The '90 on the otherhand, is showing different parts being used (except, in some cases, for mount station #3 (ride and handling package of some sort) Visual inspection of my own '90 shows it has the above listed parts installed as well as on my '89 and '88. Must have been a mid-year change or the mounts were changed sometime in it's life prior to my owning it. Really don't know. I'm including scans of the FSM pages that show the different insulators. The ones shown for the '90 look similar to the Dormans shown posted in this thread. Anyway...

After some careful consideration, I can suggest this (and it's only a suggestion). If you want to, you can forget about using the parts listed above and go with the parts shown in the figure below for the 1990 Reatta. By skipping the option for Mount #3 (which uses the insulator listed above) all three mount stations use the same parts on both left and right sides.

These parts, as listed below, are from the figure for 1990 Reatta near the bottom of this post.

1.) Six Spacers (Item #5 ) GM Part number 14087853 - $10.75

2.) Six Cushions, Front Upper (Item #4) GM Part number 1646024 - $10.80

3.) Six Cushions, Front Lower (Item #3) GM Part number 14103535 - $17.24

4.) Six Cushion Retainers (Item #2) GM Part number 1640188 - $14.47

5.) Six Bolts (Item #1) GM Part number 11561577 - $4.32

The Part numbers and prices quoted are from GM PartsDirect and are shown as being in stock and current as of the date of this post 10/23/2014

By going this route, you eliminate the need for the Cover Spacer which is unobtainum.

But, by going this route, you are going to change the feel and handling somewhat unless, of course, once you get in there and find that these were the insulators originally used when the car was built or were used as replacements sometime during the car's life. This should be enough information to get someone started in the planning stage of the Engine Cradle Insulators replacement.

Please don't use this information as your sole source. Use the search function on this site as well as the FSM for your particular Model Year (MY)

John F.

post-67519-143142795741_thumb.jpg

post-67519-143142795746_thumb.jpg

*********Cover-LH side

post-67519-143142795756_thumb.jpg

*********Cover-RH side***************All of the Necessary Parts

post-67519-143142795809_thumb.jpg

************Cover Spacer***********************Bolt

post-67519-143142795834_thumb.jpg

*************Insulator

post-67519-143142795885_thumb.jpg

***********Cover Spacer*********************Spin-loc Nuts

post-67519-143142795911_thumb.jpg

**********Insulator w/ Nuts

post-67519-14314279594_thumb.jpg

********1990 FSM**************************1988 FSM

post-67519-143142795733_thumb.jpg

post-67519-143142795752_thumb.jpg

post-67519-143142795783_thumb.jpg

post-67519-14314279586_thumb.jpg

post-67519-143142795936_thumb.jpg

Edited by Machiner 55 (see edit history)
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Machiner 55,

I have to admit that I'm the guy from Massachusetts that purchased the last four cover spacers #1626368. I needed them for my 92 Riviera. As I was having my tranny rebuilt, the shop let me know that I should also replace the six cradle bushing assemblies. So, I went ahead and had that done too. The shop was able to save two of the originals. Every once and a great while I do see them on EBay. I would assume a machine shop would be able to fabricate some without much trouble...they're pretty basic.

Also, Machiner...your post is a great write up...very much appreciated.

Ronnie...hopefully Machiner wouldn't mind you including his write up in the ROJ.

Edited by DShip (see edit history)
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This is really confusing. On one hand we have people saying they have a kit that includes the cover spacers (washers) that are readily available. On the other hand I'm hearing the cover spacers are unavailable and DShip bought the last ones. What is the final word on replacement parts to renew the cradle bushings?

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Dave,

Ohhhh, you're that guy....Mr. another...

From a past post...

Spoke with ***** at Cernak Buick in Easthampton, MA. Parts Dept. Not open on weekends but, says have 4 in stock. Will order first thing Monday 9/31/12. Called Monday afternoon (2pm) Parts were unavailable due to last 4 being "special ordered" by "another".

Yah, I remember now. The parts guy at Paul Sur Buick/GMC here in Valparaiso checked on these for me Saturday morning. Come Monday the last four in the country were gone. Well somebody had to get them. Glad it was you.:)

Also, thank you and, your welcome. (took only about 4-5 hours to put together)

And, no, I don't mind at all if Ronnie uses the info.

Ron,

My guess at this point is that the "kit" being referred to is the Dorman mentioned above and that one of the metal disks in that kit is being referred to as a "washer". Conjecture at this point unless someone confirms.

What is the final word on replacement parts to renew the cradle bushings?

I thought post #16 was it.

John F.

Edited by Machiner 55 (see edit history)
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Guest PontiacDude210

It's a problem if Ronnie is confused, Because most of my tech vocabulary comes from his site. I can't make a lot of sense of my own car, so far I know what I know from other's pics. My own car has a glob of under coating and rust where these go.... not good I guess.

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The bottom support cover washers are available....they're seriously beefy looking smooth/semi-gloss black washers. It's the top washer covers (#1626368 pictured in M55's/John's picture #6 in post #16) that are wicked hard to find.

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Dashmaster,

According to the 86-93 E Body Parts & Illustration Catalog, I don't believe the Dorman 924-005 bushing you show is correct for the Reatta. What you are showing is for the position #1 bushing assembly used on the 89-91 E57 Riviera (only) and also the position #1 and #3 bushing assemblies used on the 92-93 E57 Riviera (only).

The correct bushing assembly for all positions #1, #2, and #3 on the E97 88-91 Reatta and on the 86-88 E57 Riviera is shown in Machiner 55'/John's pictures #5, #8, and #11 in post #16, GM part #1627359.

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Here's the sheet from the 86-93 E Body Parts & Illustration Catalog Remember, you'll need 2 of each position...a total of 6. The illustration is showing only one side of the car.

Edited by DShip (see edit history)
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All of my mounts on my 88 are the same with 10 mm bolt in's like show in pictures here. I have test fitted the top busing in the right rear outer position and I saw no problems with bolting it up as shown in my picture. The inner rear looks the same as the outer. The only one I have not looked closely at is the front. Going to be working on this more this weekend. I will document the install. I ordered these mounts based on what I read on the old thread on mounts I hope they work. Looks like they will so far.

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In an effort to simplify this mess, I will point out the following:

1. Most of the OEM parts are no longer available. Bolts are and you may peridocally find some original parts (bushings and washers) available here and there but those are just NOS that happen to be uncovered from time to time. No more are being made by GM.

2. The cradle used on most 1986-95 GM FWD with transverse mounted 3.8 (and closely related engines) and the Cadillac 4.5/4.9L from 1988-95 are very close to being identical at least as far as the cradle mounts are concerned. All have 6 positions with a double D opening (flat on two sides, round on two sides) stamped in the steel. Some have the 3 additional small holes around the perimiter to accomodate the OEM bushings with threaded studs that were retained with lock nuts.

3. Many different variations on mount bushings were made and used depending on the year and model, the desired handling characteristics (rigid versus luxury) and so on. Over time, as GM is known to do, most variations were obsoleted and consolidated into fewer replacement part numbers that superceded the original parts. Often this resulted in minor changes in material or configuration from the originals. These changes may also have made a difference in stiffness of the mounts but GM was clearly unconcerned about that after the cars passed a certain age. They were just supporting the need for some kind of parts to replace these. Now they aren't even concerned with doing that. To quote Moe "stooge" Howard, "You'll get nothing and like it!"

4. At this point, we have little choice in what we can use based upon what is available. This is not an ideal situation but it is what we have. The Dorman kit will fit the cradle on the Reatta. Whether or not you notice a difference in the feel of the car after using these is anybody's guess and is highly subjective in any case. I'd rather have known good parts in place even if they are softer (or firmer) rubber than the originals than to risk dropping the powertrain in the street due to failed bushings and hardware.

5. The heavier upper and lower washers from Dorman resemble those that were OEM parts for the Cadillac Deville, Eldorado and Seville. This means they are better grade parts intended to support the weight of a big Caddy V8 compared to the less substantial ones originally used in the Reatta which had a smaller and somewhat lighter V6.

These simply go between the rubber and the body (top) or rubber and head of the bolt (bottom) to prevent lateral movement of the bushing and deformation and pull through of the rubber parts from the bolt being torqued to spec. If anything, the Dorman washers are overkill for our needs but that isn't a problem in my view.

6. I would not hesitate to use the Dorman kits on a Reatta as it is the only complete kit available now. Yes, Prothane makes some that will fit (commonly used on the Fiero) but it is bushings only, no washers. They are also hard urethane material which will not isolate the cradle (and body, by extension) from the road as well. If you like sport performance handling this might work for you. If you are wishing to approximate the orginal luxury ride characteristics of the Reatta the Dorman kit will do better as the bushings are conventional rubber.

Hopefully this will put down some of the confusion on the subject.

KDirk

Edited by KDirk (see edit history)
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To Everybody...

I absolutely agree with everything that's been stated. So, purchase whatever compatible parts you can get your hands on, even if you don't need them until later. That's what I've been doing since a lot of parts are interchangeable between my 91 Reatta and 92 Riviera....creating quite a nice inventory in my cellar I must say.

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Honestly... I don't know why I bother.
I know how you feel John. That same thought has crossed my mind quite often over the last seven years. Every now and then someone will say, "I appreciate your help." or "I appreciate what you do.", and it makes it all worth while... At least that is what I keep telling myself.
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John,

I hope I didn't leave the impression that I was trying to upstage your exellent and comprehensive post. I put my lengthy "clarification" up to assist those planning to use the Dorman parts but were unsure of compatibility.

The factory parts are very nearly depleted irrespective of which year or model one is looking for now. Some are already long gone; at least that was my finding when I did a comprehensive search a year ago to cobble together enough parts for two more Reattae and my Deville. I can't imagine it hasn't gotten worse since then.

By all means, I'd encourage anyone doing this job to try and find OEM parts if possible. Your posting will be invaluable to that end, but some will chose the path of less resistance and buy what is more readily available. I can understand the latter if time is of the essence and chasing down parts piecemeal from multiple sources is not practical. And, thank you for your efforts in compiling the part numbers in one place.

KDirk

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Guest PontiacDude210

My understanding from reading other posts on this is that different bushings have different handling aspects. For those of us who prefer to experiment with different aspects of the Reatta, I see no harm in trying to understand all the aftermarket options as well, not necessarily just for convenience, but for choice. I appreciate M55's posts on the topic. I appreciate Daniels research on the bushings as well. So please, have patience with those of us who seem to be exploring this topic extensively. I like the idea of the fiero bushings which handle stiffer, the Dorman bushings are easy to get, and the factory parts are none of those things but are proven by time. Thank you all for continuing to answer these questions, and I'm happy to see other options being explored.

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