Ethanol - Your thoughts and experiences

[Guest]

In today's paper I read an article regarding gasoline and ethanol. There was a quote in the article as follows,"Gas with ethanol must be transported by truck or train because it damages pipelines". Now if it damages pipelines, what must it do to our antique cars which, like pipelines, were never designed to handle ethanol.<P>Your experiences with ethanol and antique cars of all vintages please.

[Dave@Moon]

Between 1980 and 1983 I was sentenced to three years of graduate school at Iowa State University. At that time I was driving a 1960 Ford Falcon, and a 10% methanol content was all but mandatory there (due to tax incentives). In fact, I was told, only one chain (I believe it was Conoco) sold pure unleaded gas. <P>In about 35,000 miles that car broke down in virtually every way possible w/o blowing up a tranny or engine. However, none of those problems were fuel related. In fact, the rubber pieces which I replaced when I restored the car as an antique in 1989-1990 were undamaged in any way. <P>Ethanol gas (then called gasahol) wasn't damaging any pipelines in 1980, it sounds like you found someone trying to explain (ne legitimize) the 500% jump in oil profits in the last quarter! <p>[This message has been edited by Dave@Moon (edited 06-21-2000).]

[Guest Hal Davis (MODEL A HAL)]

In addition to damage to rubber parts, I understand that ethanol attacks brass (jets, needle seats, etc...). I think that some carb kits are available with stainless steel rather that brass parts, but only for modern automobiles, I'm sure.

[Guest]

Dave ~~ I think your 500% figure is an exageration, but then if your profit is unusually low in one quarter and then you return to normal the next 500% is not impossible. .01 profit per barrel increased to .05 per barrel is a 500%. I once read a book while studying statistics in college in the early 50's entitled, "How to Lie With Statistics." I would write more, but I have been called to dinner, NOW. ~~ HV<p>[This message has been edited by hvscotyard (edited 06-21-2000).]

[Guest]

Back from dinner! Before anyone gets the wrong idea, I am not in any way connected to the oil industry except when I put the pump nozzle to the tank, nor have I ever been. No one in my family is either.<P>Do you really believe that the oil companies, many of which are controlled from countries other than the United States, [shell, Amoco,BP, Arco to name a few] are able to selectively control the price in a small designated area of the country? Illinois and Wisconsin. If you want to look for a logical culprit, try the local oil distributors. They would have the ability to pull it off.<P>Dave, if you can offer some proof that ethanol has been transported by pipeline sometime in the past and without ill effect, I will be most happy to take on the writer of the newspaper article. Until then, based on my past personal experience with the product, I accept what he has written.<P>I started this thread to get a discussion going on the subject of ethanol. I have my experiences. You folks tell me yours and I'll tell you mine. ~~ HV<p>[This message has been edited by hvscotyard (edited 06-21-2000).]

[Guest]

I just finished replacing an electric fuel pump on one of my antique vehicles. I know, not authentic. After making my last post I took time to re-read all of the material contained in the directions. QUOTE: "Bellows electric fuel pumps are formulated to pump regular, no lead, premium gasoline and diesel fuel. The use of gasohol is not recommended. If used it will dramatically shorten the life of the pump. Consideration to repair or replace a pump due to a defect in material or workmanship will not be given if gasohol is used."<P>Now it seems to my untrained mind, in chemical engineering at least, that if gasohol is bad for fuel pumps it might just be bad for pumps in oil pipelines. That stuff doesn't go through there by gravity.<P>Enough for tonight. Other personal first hand experiences with ethanol will be posted from time to time if this thread continues.<P>HV<P>[This message has been edited by hvscotyard (edited 06-21-2000).]<p>[This message has been edited by hvscotyard (edited 06-22-2000).]

[Dave@Moon]

I know methanol attacks rubber parts, shrinking and making them brittle. That's why it's been replaced by isopropyl in dri-gas. The only thing I've heard ethanol damage (in concentrations less than 10%) is some paints and coatings (notably some early gas tank coatings). I suppose it's possib;le that there's some kind of internal coating in pipelines that can be damaged by ethanol, but it would be awfully short-sighted not to have prepared for that possibility. Also if an entire state like Iowa could be supplied almost totally by 10% ethanol 20 years ago, I can't imagine that the infrastructure could handle that and not the current situation.<P>As far as the electric fuel pump (I've got one on my '60 Buick too, but that's a long story ), the instructions were written for "gasahol" without defining it (I think). It sounds like a C.Y.A. clause to me. Then again, there may be something in there that's sensitive. My fuel pump had no such admonishment.<P>The 500% figure is from the Federal government (FTC I think). Consider the source.

[Guest]

It took a while to sink in, but I do remember a bad experience with this stuff. In the late 70's I had a 75 Lincoln and was up in New England. I had put the "gasahol" in the car and started home. By the time I got home the car ran like a dog. I took a look under the hood and to make a long story short, it had eaten away every rubber "0" ring and rubber gasket in the carb!! No lie. When I went to the local carb rebuilder (you can tell this was 20 yrs. ago) he took one look and said "gasahol?; does it every time."

[Guest]

Personal experience #2 ~~ I drove a 1931 Chev. roadster on the 1987 Glidden Tour in Columbus, Ohio, and several of us filled up before the tour at a gas station near the hotel. Later that evening someone discovered that they sold only gasahol but we didn't think too much about. On the Monday tour all went well. Tuesday about 18 miles out the engine just quit. No fuel out of the fuel pump. Left the car where it was and finished the day in ronbarn's back seat. That evening went out and dragged the car back to the hotel. Took off the fuel pump and opened it up. The diaphram was dissolved. Replaced the diaphram, got rid of the gas and by Thursday was back on the road. Jack Macy, an AACA past president and knowledgable '31 Chev guy told me that gasahol had dissolved many a fuel pump diaphram and that he had a batch of alcohol proof ones made.<P>Since that experience I NEVER put any fuel containing alcohol in ANY antique vehicle regardless of year. If the tour is in Iowa, I just skip that one. Illinois is almost as bad. There is one state that mandates alcohol in ALL gasoline. I don't know which one, but I would like to know for sure which one it is. ~~ HV<P><BR>More true stories left in the record book!!<BR>Stay tuned.<BR>

[D Binger]

Howard,<P>Jack Macy is still trying to find a good material for the fule pumps. I have tried two of them I got from hin with not much luck. I got another one from him last month, but I haven't tried it yet. I am using an old pump on my 30 Chevy right now. The last one went south on Christmas day and I had to be towed in.<P>Dan

[Guest]

Methanol and ethanol aren't the same and don't behave the same. Methanol is bad for old-style rubber. Ethanol is mostly harmless. Guess which one is in "gasohol." I recall quite a bit of debate in the late 80s/early 90s as to which should be the standard. The feeling at the time was that we'd have flexible-fueled cars by now. Methanol proved to be more dominant because the methanol industry had more clout, despite the fact that the stuff eats up old rubber. The folks in California are still having problems, since that state continues to stay well behind the curve.<P>Cheers,<BR>Bry

[Guest]

In my misspent youth I had some familiarity with alcohol of the mountain variety. Ethyl alcohol you drink, methyl you don't. Ethyl burns with a blue flame, methyl burns red to orange. I never expected they would put that stuff into gasoline. I thought it only went into canning jars and glass jugs for sale in its natural state. ~~ HV<P>

[Guest]

Now this is strictly off the top of my head and if I am wrong, somebody please correct me. I recall reading years ago that the mix in gasahol using ethyl alcohol is 10% ethyl and 90% gasoline. However to get the same energy output from a gallon of gasahol made with methyl alcohol, you need 20% alcohol to 80% gasoline.<P>Do not confuse ethyl, the type of alcohol, with "Ethyl" the trade name for the lead additive [tetraethyl lead] developed by Charles Kettering between 1924 and 1927 or the Ethyl Corporation which was formed to produce and market the product. ~~ HV<p>[This message has been edited by hvscotyard (edited 06-24-2000).]

[Guest]

Here in Brazil we have hundreds of thousands of running using ethanol as fuel. In the late 70's the Brazilian Governament decided to reduce the country's dependency of petroleum, so they chose ethanol as the alternative fuel. The car factories in Brazil (GM, VW, Ford, Fiat...)redesign the engines to accept the new fuel and today a considerable part of the Brazilian automotive fleet uses ethyl alcohol (ethanol) as fuel. These engines are more resistent to corrosion.<BR>The Brazilian gasoline is also a mixture of ethanol and gasoline (mixture of heptanes and octanes). My cars run using this gasoline and I still didn't have any problem.<P>Regards,<BR>Julio Albernaz<BR>1928 Chevrolet, 1951 Plymouth, 1954 Willys Jeep<P>------------------<BR>

[Guest Hal Davis (MODEL A HAL)]

Howard,<P>I looked up the Higher Heating Values in an old Marks Handbook:<P>Methanol 9,758 BTU/lb<BR>Ethanol 12,770 BTU/lb<BR>Gasoline 20,750 BTU/lb<P>As you can see, gasoline has A LOT more energy than alcohol per lb. I'm not sure what this means as far as mixing ratios. My guess would be that one would have to use more of this "hybrid" fuel to get the same horsepower as they would get using gasoline. Therefore, the more alcohol that the mixture contains, the worse your gas mileage will be, all other things being equal. In other, words you will need 20% ethanol and 90% gasoline = 110% of gasohol to have same energy as gasoline.<P>P.S. Has anyone else heard of the brass corosion I mentioned earlier in this thread? I remember reading something about this in "Hot Rod" Magazine when I was a teenager.<P>Hal<p>[This message has been edited by MODEL A HAL (edited 06-30-2000).]

[Dave@Moon]

Hal, you're absolutely right. I can tell you from my Iowa experience that using ethanol reduces the output of the motor (horsepower) and results in increased fuel consumption. <BR>Interestingly, however, as it is not as explosive as pure gasoline (asuming there is such a thing), adding alcahol increases the octane rating of the gas. When I was in Iowa regular gas was 89 octane and premium 93 or 94. The normal valuse were generally 87 and 92 octane at that time. There was no such thing as mid-grade then.

[Guest]

My experience here in Brazil is the same, the fuel consumption of vehicles that run using alcohol is about 30% greater than the cars that use gasoline as fuel. For this reason the government gives economic incentives to the use of alcohol as fuel. A good example is the price, a liter of alcohol costs 35% less than a liter of gasoline here in Brazil.<P>Regards,<BR>Julio

[Terry Hulsey]

The problem with alcohol is that it damages things like rubber fuel lines from the inside out. The damage is not visible until you find tiny rubber particles in the carb or the line suddenly starts leaking. Do not use regular fuel line for anything. Buy fuel injection hose. It is impervious to alcohol. P

[2carb40]

Just a couple things I learned as sole commercial field serve tech and 'off season's service school instructor for Toro in four states for nine years. Ethanol was a disasterous 'solition' contrived by profiteering opportunists during the air pollution panic. Golf courses and city maintenance shops started ringing the phone off the hook complaining about damage to carbs etc. Alcohol combines with water somewhat, gasoline, not so well. When folks would take delivery of '10%' gasoline fuel it would sit in a large uninsulated storage tank and of course, used over time in a variety of ambient temps. What occured in those storage tanks is called stratification. This is when temperature,up or down, affects the homogenization of the different chemicals. During this process the alcohol and whatever moisture has gathered in the tank from, for instance condensation, gather at the bottom while the gasoline separates and lies on top. They draw the fuel out and fill the equipment tank with mostly water&alcohol. Woops, no longer 10%! Brigg's and Stratton offered a small glass unit to test for percentage of alcohol. Owners of new equipment frustrated by mfg warranty denials based on small print stating over 10% ethanol use would void engine coverage! Traveling to ethanol producing plants, I was servicing Olathe brand 'Tub grinders' diesel powered behemoths for grinding hay bales used to burn in the rural plants to produce ethanol. Other plants burned fuel oil in the process. Oh yeah no emissions controls on those plants. The farmers who grew the corn did not get the lion share of additional $$ becuz of ethanol. I heard of the large government subsidies some enjoyed, however. What's the next bright solution lithium batteries. God help us to look scientifically at the big picture!

Edited January 5, 2022 by 2carb40 (see edit history)

[TerryB]

Remember OPEC was the enemy in the 1970s.  Home grown fuel from corn sounded like a good idea at the time. 
 

[ryan95]

As a small engine mechanic, I see lots of ethanol problems. The water/alcohol mix that settles below the gasoline usually just stops the engine from running until cleaned out. It's almost always at the lowest part of the fuel system, usually the carburetor bowl, but also sometimes at the bottom of the fuel tank. I usually don't see the rubber lines break down, but it does happen. If it sits long enough in a carburetor bowl or steel tank, it will eat pinholes through the bottom.

 

How does this apply to antique autos? Is it safe to assume that most factory fuel lines are hard lines? Those shouldn't be a problem very often. My main concern would be letting the corrosive mix spend time in an obsolete carburetor, vacuum tank, or fuel tank. Often these parts are rare or would cost hundreds to thousands to recast or have a craftsman make new.

 

Also, there is no mechanic in a bottle that works for ethanol problems. They are preventative at best. I use Stabil Marine when I have to store ethanol fuel or winterize an engine. So far I've done 100 plus boat winterizations without a problem in the spring. 

[carbking]

On 1/5/2022 at 10:47 AM, 2carb40 said:

God help us to look scientifically at the big picture!

 

It is called a total disregard for the "Law of Unintended Consequences".

 

Jon

[rocketraider]

1 hour ago, ryan95 said:

...The water/alcohol mix that settles below the gasoline usually just stops the engine from running until cleaned out. It's almost always at the lowest part of the fuel system, usually the carburetor bowl, but also sometimes at the bottom of the fuel tank...

This jolted my memory back to roughly ten years ago when I filled the Gray Ghost station wagon, drove it several miles and parked it overnight in 18 degree weather. The next morning it absolutely refused to start. And it sat like that for close to 6 weeks until on Easter Sunday I tried it and it fired right up. Ambient temps by then had been in the low 40s for a few days.

 

I realised that I had gotten some ethanol crap gas and in just a few hours the alcohol/water had striated out of it and frozen in the tank and fuel lines, and didn't thaw out until things had warmed up.

 

Summer of 2016 the same thing happened. Alcohol/water mix striated into the bottom of the tank at the fuel pickup. I siphoned some of that supposed gasoline out and it had no smell. The engine would not start until I had added 5 gallons of non-ethanol gasoline.

 

Might add I bought the ethanol gas from two different brand name "top tier" stations that both pump a lot of fuel.

[Matt Harwood]

Wow, talk about a zombie thread resurrected from the dead! 22 years must be a record.

[ryan95]

Oh boy, I just noticed

[rocketraider]

Ethanol is and will always be a timely topic. Some of us realised years ago it was never about energy independence, but making big agriculture more profits.

 

Wish they could have figured out a profitable way to make the stuff out of tobacco. I might still be farming!

 

Nah. Tobacco farming was nothing but hot dirty hard work, and every crop you planted was a gamble.

[caddyshack]

Back in the early 1960's we used a product called "Heat" and added it to our gas tanks to prevent gas line freeze ups in the winter. It was the same straight alcohol used in ethanol today. My high horsepower autos never had a problem with "heat" products, and when warm weather came we quit using it. Today you don't have that option. Regular, non ethanol, gas is still available in my area but the higher octane additives are needed for better performance. I used ethanol gas in my '62 Vet years ago, by mistake, and had to replace every rubber gasket, hose, fuel pump diaphragm, gas tank items, etc. for hundreds of dollars.

Now, I only keep regular non ethanol gas on hand for all small engines and boat motors. I won't even keep a spare can of ethanol gas in the garage. It would evaporate faster than I could use it. 

Just venting, I hate the stuff.

[avgwarhawk]

I can't say I have had much of a problem with ethanol gas.  Once a vapor lock that cleared with putting the pedal to the floor.  Nothing of note in the two carbs I rebuilt on my Buicks.  I do run my Buicks regularly.  Maybe that helps. 

[Owen_Dyneto]

Much as I detest the ethanol-laced gasoline on scientific and economic grounds, I can say I've really had no problems with its use in my 1934 Packard.  My carburetor was rebuilt in the 1970s by Doug Heinmuller and has never been touched since, no problems.  Fuel pump by Art Gould about 2001, likewise no problems.  No vapor lock issues or problems with lines or the tank.  I do lay up the car for several months during the winter, and use a gasoline stabilizer at that time.