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Body Work 2!


ronbarn
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The other thread on Body Work has been very instructive, but with two pages, we probably need to start a new thread so we can keep up with Model A Hal and the saga of his restoration.<P>Suggest that you print out the original 2 page thread before it's lost in cyberspace, and continue with the good stuff, Hal, jac, Rick, et.al.

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Dad Gum ( can I say that on this forum).<BR>And I just paid $2.67 for a brand new can of Krylon. The sales man said it was guaranteed<BR>not to run and I did not have to worry about air pressure, nozzle size, spray width, thinner and reducer numbers. <BR>later-jac

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I am a Martin-Senour paint rep and I left a ton of info on the "Bodywork" subject, sorry I didn't see this new post. DAD GUM smile.gif

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MARTINSR,<P>Thanks for your input. I used Trio-Prime on the bare metal and Primeez over that. I have a gallon of each, so you can understand my not switching midstream. I'm sure that some of the newer products have advantages over the older ones, but my understanding is that lacquer is the easiest to use for a novice like myself. The body will be acrylic lacquer (Let me know when you have shipping info, Rick). On the fenders, I intended to use acrylic enamel, but if there is something as durable, but easier to spray that can be put over Primeez, I'm all ears.

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Hal, yes Lacquer (top coat) is propably the easiest to spray but it requires much more skill to make it "Show Quality" so it's a trade off. As for primer, it requires many more coats to achieve the same filling. You can spray just about anything over that Primeez, and I think the good old acyrlic enamel will be your best bet. I will tell you that you don't even need the Primeez if the Trio-Prime looks "paintable", that is if you didn't need imperfections filled. You could paint right over the Trio-Prime. It will suck up the solvents in the top coat a little just like the Primeez but not as bad. And you will have a nice chip resistant surface. If you are painting "hard parts" I really recommend this! Frame components, bumper brackets, seat frames, wheels, etc. Sand blast or the like and Trio-Prime then you have 24 hours to top coat it without sanding! It's a no brainer! If you want an even tougher film, after the Trio-Prime then apply a couple of coats of 5121 (black) or 5120 (gray) 4.6 epoxy primer sealer (the 4.6 refers to the VOC content) Again non-sanding, you have another 24 hours to put your top coat! WITH NO SANDING! It is the only way to go, when painting those parts that don't need to be glass smooth, just nice and durable. By the way if you plan on painting white or another light color over the Trio-Prime go with the chromate free version #8846. The chromate will bleed up through the color and yellow it, not much and it take even years but it will do it. If you are spraying acrylic enamel with hardner (man, I hope you are including the hardner) then you are very capable of using the 2K primers I mentioned earlier. Have Fun! there are very few things more satisfying than driving a car that YOU painted.

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Rick,<P>How long should I have waited before wet sanding the Primeez? Tell me three days was enough. That's how long I waited. Looked good too. I was surprised at how well the bondo had feathered to the surrounding metal. As new as I am at this, I figured you would be able to see it, but it was invisible. Had a few rust pits that didn't quite get filled. Filled those with spot putty tonight. I intend to do one more coat of Primeez, then wet sand with 400 grit. <P>Am I on the right track? If so, what's next? Buy sealer and Acrylic Enamel or do you recommend waiting until I have the rear fenders, splash aprons, etc... ready too?

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Back the Truck up Jack,<P>The last I heard from you, you were shooting party streamers from your gun. You were going so fast there, I thought you were going to ask what type of polish to use next.<BR>Did you wet block the fenders with 320? Both front fenders?<BR>Go ahead and finish up and then re prime those fenders. Let them sit. Longer the better. Go to the rears awhile and get going on those before worring about the fronts again. Let's get all your aprons and fenders in prime together first. I hope you can keep these primered parts somewhere in a clean area. No oils and such being used around them.<P>Question I'm afraid to ask. How far apart is this car. Are you planning to mock re-assemble and re fit panels, ect. I would like to see these fenders blocked on the car and chassis, mounted. <P>Rick<P>

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Rick is right on! Make sure you trial fit those parts! All of them, model A's can be a bugger. Lacquer primer can be shot over in minutes, but the longer the better. Remember that lacquer never dries. Theoretically you can scrape it off the car and add thinner to re-use it! Just do as Rick said and get all the panels done before sealing or painting. That should be plenty of time. The temp is a huge factor in this. Please toss that "spot putty", it is just thick lacquer primer. It will shrink up and show those pits you are working so hard to hide. If they are larger than say...a ball in a tip of a ball point pen, don't use it. Go with a polyester putty like M-S # 6398 or Evercoat "Icing". They use a hardner like "Bondo" (are you seeing a pattern here?) I havn't owned a tube of spot putty for over 20 years. Ever since going to work for a restoration shop that did concourse work and specialized in '33/'34 Fords. If you have lots of pits or lots of body work on a panel you can use M-S #5190, it is acually spraying polyester putty! You can bury a quarter! no kidding! I hope you don't need it, but there are times when it comes in handy. Probably the best sealer to use now is M-S #'s 8097 or 8098 (red or gray) It goes against what I have said ahout using 2K products. It is a good old work horse and is perfect under that acrylic enamel. It will help the top coat keep a good gloss. And do wait till you have all the panels in primer before you start the "paint work" (sealer and top coat). You sound like you are on the right track.

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Oh yeh, one thing you said Rick is way off, DON"T EVER WET SAND LACQUER PRIMER! It is very porous and will soak up the water like a sponge! There are "old wives tales" about the water "shocking" the primer to dry, they are just that old wives tails. A product with isocyinates (the chemical in hardners that make the molecules link) are heat and moisture driven, so there is some truth in it with 2K products but don't "push" water into a 1K you are going to be painting on.

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The original thread <a href="http://www.aaca.org/ubb/Forum7/HTML/000090.html">"Body Work"</a> has been closed from posting (but still readable) All new posts should be put here.<P>Thanks.<P>Peter<P>------------------<BR>Peter Gariepy<BR>peterg@aaca.org<BR> <A HREF="http://www.aaca.org" TARGET=_blank>www.aaca.org</A> <p>[This message has been edited by peterg (edited 04-03-2000).]

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Rick,<P>I did not use a sanding block, as these front fenders have way too many compound curves. I was afraid of having little flat spots all over it. I have the 3M rubber sanding blocks, but thought it best not to use them here. I used half sheets of 320 folded in thirds. <P>As for the overspray, I managed to get the panel primed, but it was rough when I got done. Next time I think I will try just a tad more thinner than recommended.

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Please pardon the break in the flow of fantastic replies, but I want to take this opportunity to welcome MARTINSR to the DF. We use this forum to learn (and sometimes have a little fun) and the pro input from Rick and Martinsr will certainly contribute to us amateurs who want a quality product. Thanx!

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Thanks Ronbarn, On the Thinner primer issue, You are right, either thin it more or close up the material knob a little or raise the air pressure. Also the gun tip may be to big.<BR>Two things atomize the paint or primer, air and solvent. So as the primer comes out of the tip it needs to be "busted up" with air. Now, if there is not enough solvent this can't be done. By the way lacquer is very forgiving in the thinner department, When it says to reduce it 100% (or 1 to 1), this is not carved in stone. The 2k products I have mentioned are not as forgiving and should be mixed closer to the recommendations on the can, ESPECIALY THE HARDNER! I like to call them "sailers and girls" When you introduce the "Sailers" in the hardner to the "Girls" in the paint (or primer or sealer) you want to do it as close as possable to the instructions so there is the correct amount of "Couples".

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The fact that you will be getting new aprons (I assume that you are talking about the panels above the running boards, I have always called them aprons) means that you better dang well trial fit ALL sheet metal. Forget about the "Exact same as original" in the catalog. If they really wanted to be honest in the catalog ( I don't care whos) they would put "Similar to original, can be used if nothing else is available". This goes for ALL aftermarket parts. I know many are very well made but if you go with Rick and I you will have fewer head aches. The "exact as original" Fender I got for a buddies '31 model A was very poor, I returned it and found a decent original to repair. This is one of those things that takes the longest to learn. The time that is spent fitting parts seems so "wasted". I can assure you it is very well spent. Those fenders and aprons get "sprung" alot easier than you can imagine.

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Rick,<P>I did not answer you fully before. Yes, I did both fenders, and no, I had not intended to mock reassemble. Had never given that any thought. They were not bent so bad that any straightening I did would affect their fit. They did not seem to be "sprung" or anything like that when I removed them. The car is not disassembled very far. Just the fenders removed, although I intend to remove the body next (after doing the fenders and running boards). The splash shields are trash. I have to get new ones. They have more rust than metal where they bolt to the fenders.

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Hal, someone said in one of these posts (I think, there has been so much info, my brain is mush) that you could use PPGs DP-40 and then "blondo" over it. Any good epoxy primer will allow you to do that. Martin-Senour 5120 or 5121 would be fine or for a little more build, #5130. You really shouldn't put an etching primer like M-S Trio-Prime under it, not because you don't need it for corrosion protection. But because later on when you are sanding the "bondo" you will probably sand through and expose the Trio-Prime and then have problems if you have to put more "bomdo" on. An acid etching primer is never recommended under polyester resin ("bondo"). I have never done this, I always just jump on the part and get the body work done and get it in primer before there is a problem. But I do have a buddy who has done this for years with the M-S #5120 without a hitch, on $MILLION vintage race cars! By the way, here is a number to the Martin-Senour Fax-Back line where you can get Product data sheets on all the products in the M-S line. 1-800-824-0631. First you'll call and get a catalog of the products with order numbers (two pages) then you can order anything you want. They are a wealth of information.

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MARTINSR,<BR>First I want to thank you for coming on here and helping Hal with his project. As you know may know, this is Hal's first big attempt in antique auto restoration, to the best of my knowledge that is. I hope some day to meet him and shake his hand and give him a pat on the back as I would anyone who has the courage to take on such a large task and is willing to gamble the huge finances it takes even to perform a amateur restoration on a antique automobile. I often think back here as I respond to Hal's questions, 29 years ago when I painted a car for the first time, how nervous and unsure I was with every step I took and how embarrassesd I would be if things didn't turn out right. I still get nervous in the booth to this day. <BR>I could not bring myself to recommend that Hal should go out and purchase the products being brought into our industry as you and I know them today. I felt that this would be both a financial and health safety burden on him. I also could not expect him to purchase a $900.00 air supplied respirator system like mine or that he had a down draft booth in his home to help in achiving his first paint job. My begining thoughts, as they are still yet, is to try to help keep the costs down to a 'small roar' and maintain simplicity and as much safety in the products recommended. I am certain that with both of our assistance and anyone who may come on here with their help, Hal will be in good hands and be proud of each and every step he undertakes ( no Dan, that's not what I meant. I know you're reading this.) on his own.<P>I do however, have one concern here that threw me. You stated that you should never wet sand lacquer primer. I must admit, I never had that brought to my attention before. So, before I committed to a 18 year recall on every restoration I have performed on a professional basis,(I hate the word professional, as it means your being paid and expected to be inhuman and not make mistakes ) I thought I would contact some good friends of mine in this business of body work and restorations and also to Martin Senour's Tech Center to see if this was a discussion at the meeting I may have missed due to my being excused for drinking to much ice tea. ( it's a joke Dan, you see, Al Gore said that~~~ never mine, I'll tell ya later. ) Anyhow, they all assured me to keep marching onward and that, should anyone shove a paper at me that says you shouldn't wet sand lacquer primer, I,m to say that I knew it all along. I hope you take some light of my post as I am a firm believer in both the "old dogs and new tricks" story and that we all should at least be ready and willing to learn new things everyday. So, I will take your suggestion under advisement. <BR>Thanks again for helping out here, I'm sure everyone here on the AACA forum appreciates it.<P>Rick

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Rick, I'm sorry if I go to far with the tech stuff. Going back the 25 years to my first is just too darn hard smile.gif I think the years of poor fit masks (or none at all) have made me forget how it was. I do remember how hard I worked to achieve decent results. And how many redos I had learning the ropes (still have much to learn, I spent last week at the training center!)I guess that's why I go on and on...... As for the wet sanding lacquer, with your eloquent writing and my near illiterate reading abilitys I can't tell if you had found that it was OK to wet sand lacquer or not! smile.gif I just go with the fact that if you prime bare metal with lacquer and set it outside it will rust, sure as poop stinks. And if you prime it with a 2K primer it won't. If you do choose to wet sand it, make sure that it dries out a good long time before you top coat it.

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OK, I'm probably the one that mentioned DP40. Sorry, but the only decent paint store here were not MS suppliers. My approach is to thoroughly clean the part, fender, panel, whatever, work the metal as needed even if only roughing. Get that epoxy primer on quick to assure the protection of a non-hygroscopic layer to prevent rust if I had to wait to continue work. Continue to work the sheetmetal until you've got it as straight as possible, being sure to use more epoxy - non hygroscopic primer if you break through to bare metal again. Those primers, at least the ones I've used provide very little filler. Then go for how ever much primer filler is necessary, hopefully minimal, do the sanding (with the protective barrier of the epoxy primer, I have never worried about wet sanding the acrylic lacquer primer - maybe a big mistake), and then work the top coats. I am not a pro and am doing this in a very nice but less than perfect shop. Is this consistent with what I've been reading here. And yes all of us DFers are appreciating this help. Maybe I'll have to switch to MS.<p>[This message has been edited by ronbarn (edited 04-05-2000).]

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Ron, You were the one who mentioned DP-40. Nobodys going to shoot you.<P>I do have one problem though. According to my PA Dutschland Dictionary here in Amish country, a "non-hygroscopic layer" is some kind of weird Science Fiction Chicken! I guess it works but man, that's some real weird rust protection you use. I hate to see what you folks paint with there in Alabama. <P>Rick

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Rick, Your talking about the first time you painted a car reminded me of my first try.<BR> I lived in NJ at the time about 10 years before your first try. Most of the houses there had the garage under part of the house. I built a "tent" around the car to keep dust off and with my newly purchased equipment including a mask, what he man would use a respirator in those days, I painted away. The fumes were not at all bad. Upon completing the first coat I went up stairs into the house. Man, the fumes would knock a horse down. The atic fan had been left on thus I had an updraft paint booth- an OSHA inspecter would have died of a heart attack. Fortunatly for me, my wife was off on a shopping spree and with the attic fan on high doors open most of the odor was gone before she showed up. The balance of the painting was done in a detached garage needless to say.<BR>later-jac

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I've been enjoying the discussions on body work. I restored my first car in the early 50's. It was a 13 T which I did fo a friend. I have used the same basic bodywork proceedure since then. Used to strip paint then sand. Metalwork as necessary. When ready to paint followed the following schedule.<BR>

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I've been enjoying the discussions on body work. I restored my first car in the early 50's. It was a 13 T which I did for a friend. I have used the same basic bodywork proceedure since then. Used to strip paint then sand. Metalwork as necessary. When ready to paint followed the following schedule: 1.Wipe down with stoddard solvent2.wipe down with metalprep-(a phosphoric acid treatment whish will remove light rust and etch metal)3.Prime with laquer primer surfacer in gray or red.4. prime again with a different color laquer primer.5.Wet sand with 220 wet or dry paper until base color can barely be seen. 6.another coat of laquer primer and repeat sanding process repeat 5 & 6 until surface was smooth and minor dents filled in. 7. Shoot another coat of primer and sand with 320 wet or dry. If necessary repeat another coat and sand again with 320. 8. Shoot color coat in either enamel or laquer as desired.<P>apparently there has been some major improvements in the finishing schedule. When I first started i subbed out any major body metal work and had it done by a friend in lead. After I moved to Colorado I started using bondo as I don't do lead very well. Before Bondo I would still treat with Metalprep. As far as I know there has been no trouble with past paint jobs. Really don't understand why when I have painted in the middle of a blizard when snow was drawn 10ft into the shop by the exhaust fan. As you can tell I don't have a seperate paint booth. Sure is hard to keep temp up in a blizard using a wood stove. When I paint I hook up an exhaust hose for the fresh air supply for the stove so I don't make a bomb out of the shop.<BR>Glad to see there are some experienced people in the forum.I'm doing metal work on my 31 roadster now and will get to the painting soon I hope. Having to use reproduction panels etc takes time as you all know. Sure appreciate the learning Hal is going thru. Would appreciate any sugestions you technical guys can offer- especially Martinsr. I am familiar with the co and have used the products years ago. I assume I can get the product in Denver or Grand Junction. This will be my last car to restore and want to play when it is done.The hair is gray and I've heard memory is first to go- there is more to it but I can't remember it.

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Well I told my self that I would stop posting my "stuffed shirt" technical hub-a-lu<BR>but I have to thank Bill for the kind words and you can get M-S products at all NAPA stores. Now I again must post some hub-a-lu smile.gif If you are going to use a metal-prep, phosphoric acid treatment, don't use the acid containing primers we have talked about in earlier posts. Pretreatments such as M-S Trio-Prime or PPGs 171 or DuPonts Variprime are not recommended over these phosphoric acids because the acids will attack each other and can actually lose adhesion from the metal. By the way, I go on and on about 2K products. But when you are working in temps below 50 degrees, those good old lacquers are a fine way to go. The hardeners in the 2K products need at least 55 or 60 degrees to work. And Hal, how are you doing? I'm dieing to see you post a picture of that A when it's finished and you are cruising this summer.

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MARTINSR,<P>It won't be this summer. I am still in the early stages of this thing. Luckily, the body is in better shape than the fenders. It has a little bondo in it and a little rust, but not near what the fenders had. It also has a lot more flat area. That's bound to be easier than the compound curves.<P>I will have to get some pictures scanned or otherwise put on disc and try out Bry's picture posting procedure.

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  • 1 month later...

I note that there have not been any recent additions to this topic. I suspect that there are others out there who are interested in the topic of body work and painting. Hope this info will keep on going.<P>How is your project going Hal? I know from my experience some of what you are going thru. Keep up trying and sooner than you might think your work will be improving.<P>My present project is a late 31 A roadster. The complete lower body has rusted out. Am in the process of replacing the sub frame from the cowl section back. I have found that the replacement parts don't fit exactly as the originals. Has any else had this trouble?<P>At present time I am at a trial assembly stage to ensure fit of the parts.The major problem I have found is that both quarter panels are warped inward where the decklid fits- approximately halfway between top and bottom corners of the opening. If anyone has a suggestion concerning how to work the quarter panels to make the decklid fit I would appreciate them. Suspect others might have same problem.<P>Thanks to Martin sr for the comments concerning use of phosphoric acid products.

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Bill,<P>It has been a couple of weeks since I've been able to do anything to it. Currently, I have both front fenders in prime and one rear fender sandblasted. It still needs some more work. I have purchased replacement splash shields (mine were rusted beyond repair), but have not had the opportunity to check the fit of them, as the body is still on the frame. I have heard that some replacement parts leave something to be desired. Good luck with it. <P>This thread is far from finished. You'll see more activity here when I get ready to paint these fenders.

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It's so nice to hear from you Hal, I'm jealous that you are getting something done. I havn't gotten too far on my new shop project and hope ot have the slab poored next month. And Bill, your finding the repro parts not fitting is the norm. Like I told Hal, I wish they would be honest in the description in the catalog. An old friend said once, instead of "Exactly as original" or "replaces original" it should say "Similar to original, can be used if nothing else is available" The way I look at it is, when you buy a repro sheet metal part, it just saves you some time from making it from scratch! On you deck lid opening problem, you may be able to use an old bumper jack, if you don't have a "monkey on a stick" friction jack that is. Just slip a piece of tubing over the jack above the moving piece, it must be long enough to go past the end of the jack. Now put a small block of wood in the deck lid channel on each side where it's "in" (across from one side to the other) and put the jack in between the wood. The pipe is hitting one block and the bottom of the jack is hitting the other. Now jack the jack and you will push the quarter panels apart! Be very careful, a bumper jack is not very "delicate" and can have quite a distance between each "notch" on the bar. You may not even be able to move it to the next one, but only spread the quarters a little. This arangment can push the darn quarter right off the car!! So be careful.

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Hal,<P>I am at about the same point on my 22 Buick. I have primer on the front fenders , doors and the hood parts. I will be shooting primer on the body, rear fenders etc in June, when everything else slows down a bit. I do have an advantage - - this is a re-restouation so everything fits and I don't have to look for any parts. I did take all the interior out so all I have now is a body shell on the frame. The motor is being rebuilt so this Buick should be a runner. The same guy rebuilt the motor on my 14 Buick and does it run.<P>Dan

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  • 2 weeks later...

This was a post I have made to some of the other forums. I would be quite interested to hear some of the thoughts about using this method from this forum. Especially any input from MARTINSR...<P>If you need to strip heavy surface and some pitted rust quickly from body panels, use Muriatic acid at 30-40% full strength. It will not damage the good metal 'only mild etching.' Just don't let the part sit in the acid solution. Use a polyester paint brush and a plastic container to keep the acid. Do not use a lot of acid! About 3-4 oz. is enough to strip a lot of rust. Keep brushing the part until all the rust is dissolved. The agitation allows the acid to do its job. When all rust is removed, flush with water to neutralize the acid. Make sure the part does not have any spot-welded metal seams that can trap the acid and prevent adequate flushing. You will know very shortly after your paint job if you had any acid traps!!! Word of Caution: Do use protective gloves, breathing filter, and goggles when working with this stuff. It is ~35% HCL and the fumes will burn the linings in your lungs! Be sure to follow-up with a good metal prep, i.e., phosphoric acid, to convert rust to iron phosphate for good paint adhesion and rust cure. You should coat the bare metal with a good wet coat, wait 3-5 minutes, and then dry with a dry cloth to remove the excess. The idea is to passivate only a thin layer and not to have loose iron phosphate powder that can cause poor paint adhesion. Remember, Muriatic (HCL) acid does nothing to prevent or cure additional rusting!!!!! <BR>

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I had posted this on the Laquer vs. Enamel thread. I think it would be good to post it here too...<P>Also, you might want to add that proper respirator should be used for any Urethane or two part A/E with isocyanates. A hooded fresh air system is recommended. However, I use an AOS respirator with R51A cartridges and dust filter. It's not recommended for isocyanates, but, it's better than using simply a dust mask or nothing at all. If you can afford the fresh air system and paint a lot, you really should consider it. It is in the $300-$600 price range depending on features.

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  • 4 weeks later...

Hal, it depends on the the primer being used. Although there are some drying issues there really is no guide on spraying in high humidity. I have lived in northern Califonia all my life and humidity is never a problem, so I may not be able to relate to your conditions. But I have never heard it mentioned much. Urethane primers "like" humidity. If you are using an "exempt" or "compliant" solvent (now required under local and national VOC rules)it is made up up acetone and chlorobenzotrifloride (if you look on the can it will show you, just like the ingredients on a candy bar). These solvents are VERY heavy and humidity plays a large part in the drying time. If your lacquer primer is being reduced with anything but lacquer thinner you are probably using these heavier solvents. As for spraying, I have sprayed in 30 degree weather (in a shop, not in the weather) with it raining and only the dry time was effected. The air in your compresser more likely contains more moisture than the "humid" air you are concerned about. When it's colder or wetter is the times that you want to wait longer between coats and spray with higher air presure to brake the primer up more. Go to this site <A HREF="http://www.martinsenour-autopaint.com/" TARGET=_blank>http://www.martinsenour-autopaint.com/</A> and then click on "reference materials" then on "PDS" (product data sheets) and you can get more info than you can imagine.<P>------------------<BR>buickfam@aol.com<BR>Life long Buick Fan.<BR>1965 Skylark H/T<BR>1965 Gran Sport Convertible<BR>1948 Chevy Pickup with 401 Buick.

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  • 1 month later...

Hal,<P> Yeah, I'm here waiting for Dan B. to catch up. We're polishing a car in Cheyenne together. wink.gif<P> I want to say go for it, but my concern is to be spraying Tec-Prime primer over the Primeez primer. I believe you can do this if it is not to thick, BUT if it IS layed on thick, then I would believe you could have problems. I have never done that, but I have done the opposite and sprayed Primeez over Tec-prime.( Huh.) Still, my first thoughts are don't do this. How far along are the fenders with final sanding. Last I knew, you just put some primer on them for protection. Lets see if MARTINSR will jump in here before long and agree or correct my way of thinking, without having to call Tec-Center and asking.<P>Free helping neighbor you say? COOL! But wait a minute, listen and study from him and YOU still paint them. I know you can do it and it is no harder than A/Enamel, just be more careful safety wise. Remember, you can't learn by having someone do it for you. You'll do fine! It will be great to have someone who knows this system standing right there with you when it comes time.<P>Rick

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