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Typically how long does a complete body restoration take?


Guest Wendal

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It's ALWAYS cheaper in the long run to buy a completed car than to buy a project, especially one that requires a lot of rust repair.

I'll now point out that this has never stopped me before... :eek:

Seriously, it is worth the time and expense to search out and buy a dry, desert southwest car and have it shipped. Unfortunately, even this is no guarantee. The 64 Vista Cruiser that I bought from Reno, NV looked very solid - until I pulled the trim from around the roof windows and found significant pinchweld rust. Fortunately, this is the only rust on the car and is not unexpected on Vista Cruisers. In my case, I do have the tools and skills (just not the time) to repair this myself. It's the journey of the restoration project that I enjoy more than the finished car (although it WOULD be nice to have at least ONE car that's nice to take to shows).

Mechanical work is much easier for a novice to learn than body and paint, so judge your skills accordingly when you look at cars to buy. Also be very wary of recently painted cars, unless you are absolutely certain of what is going on under that new paint.

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I have a very positive and disciplined outlook to my craft. I'm as sincere as can be when I mention the relationships I've had, have and indeed look forward to. My advertising budget for over 40yrs wouldn't buy Wendal a gallon of paint. My travel expenses removed from that? Well we have to show up now and then to "represent" as they say in today's vernacular. Finished cars that are known from significant collections, or indeed restored by known craftsmen, break value records all the time and always have. Still, that's a huge intagible topic. Who remembers the early 90s when every collector car publication essentially told people it was stupid (many actually called it stupid) to restore or have a car restored? Us "lifers" most likely recall that quite clear. As I said before, I just opened a shop again based on demand and I was literally off the radar for nearly 2yrs. I guess it's beyond words. There's a certain vibe to this life, a rewarding one at that, and it becomes something more than sandpaper and welding sparks. More than paint fumes and axle grease, more than the burps and farts of that 1st fire of the engine. You can't sell that, justify it, explain it, or even put a value on it. You either "get it" or you don't and that's a good thing in my honest opinion. Like those from the early 70s and through today, when a friend and I are watching the car get judged for the 1st time it's like your kid at their 1st school recital or ball game. And yet nobody, NOBODY, needs this. It's so far beyond food and shelter, daily transportation, and any number of life's requirements, but it's still a significant industry in more places than our beloved USA. Good luck Wendal. I hope some of this was helpful.

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This is always such an interesting discussion.

As I mentioned, I've been on all sides of the restoration business, from working for and paying to....

There will always be people who are experts in their field, and they use that expertise to generate sums of money, then subsequently use that money to pay for work that they can't perform.

To these people, the dollars mean little, but the quality means much...

Thus you have people who willingly write big checks for quality work.

The important thing is for the "average Joe" ( of whom I am one) to not get caught in the trap of trying to do a Professional restoration on a small budget. If you cringe writing a check for $25k for a pile of chrome work, then you'd better rethink your goals...

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Wendal,

As mentioned by previous posters, the smartest thing to do is to sell the car ... quickly. Of course many folks would say that buying, restoring, maintaining and driving old cars is not exactly a sign of intelligence. As an option, and if you're more interested in learning than showing the car, you could attempt to get her running and just drive it for fun. The problem here is that once you have her running, you may become somewhat emotionally attached and more likely to ignore your intellect when it comes time to sell. If you keep a car that has as much rust as your Mopar, you MUST have a place to park/store it inside, otherwise exposure to the elements will cause it to deteriorate more rapidly than can be handled without the application of much $$$$.

I've bought several old cars (I haven't sold any yet ... I never claimed to be smart), most of them not running and only a few steps ahead of the crusher. Buying and owning "old iron" is more of an emotional than an intellectual thing. Yesterday, I put my 1950 Crosley on the road for the first time since I've owned it. That's quite a feeling of accomplishment, but is more a thing of the heart than of the brain. Is the Crosley worth the time and effort to have gotten it on the road? Certainly not to any rational human being (or accountant), but, it is a challenge, and it is FUN. I love seeing old cars on the road, and I enjoy driving mine. It's a hobby and can be enjoyed at many levels. The more work you are able to do yourself, the more dollar$ saved, and the more work done by others the more dollar$ spent. The paint on my cars look good from 20 ft. or so, but to paint one would cost $5,000 - $20,000 or more. I'm having fun driving my old cars around, and although I'm not restoring them to their original glory, they don't deteriorate (too much) while in my care.

Wendal, from what you've posted, you're at the entry level of this hobby. To tackle a project like your Mopar would be a daunting task, even for the experienced. As the previous posters have stated buy as good of a car as you can afford and enjoy it as a learning experience while you're tinkering with it and driving it. Stay away from the "popular" cars and go with something a little more off beat, for example Chevrolets that are not "Tri-Fives". Whatever you choose, determine parts availability and whether or not there are active marque clubs/organizations.

I know my advice has been somewhat contradictory and rambling, but I mean well. I, however, will not attempt to give you advice on marriage!:D

Cheers,

Grog

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How much could one put into a simple garage diorama like this? Its just a wave of the hand:

0922111915.jpg

Back in the 1990's I had a customer who had owned a 1941 Cadillac since 1964. Among other things, all the door weatherstrip was shot. I forget the installed price including the rubber, but he wanted to reduce cost. So I told the owner I would deduct the full hourly rate for hours he worked with me. He took the right doors, I took the left. An hour into the job with sweat just pouring off him, he asked for a ride home.

Another had a 1959 Caddy that needed a brake job,.... and while you have it, the steering link, the wiper motor, the rear window rollers, as I remember there were something like 27 added jobs. Delivered the car and the invoice. Comment "Gee, that's an awful lot for a brake job."

I'm planning to get back into it again just because I like it. My specialty was making freshly restored cars steer, start, and stop.

Bernie

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How much could one put into a simple garage diorama like this? Its just a wave of the hand:

0922111915.jpg

Back in the 1990's I had a customer who had owned a 1941 Cadillac since 1964. Among other things, all the door weatherstrip was shot. I forget the installed price including the rubber, but he wanted to reduce cost. So I told the owner I would deduct the full hourly rate for hours he worked with me. He took the right doors, I took the left. An hour into the job with sweat just pouring off him, he asked for a ride home.

Another had a 1959 Caddy that needed a brake job,.... and while you have it, the steering link, the wiper motor, the rear window rollers, as I remember there were something like 27 added jobs. Delivered the car and the invoice. Comment "Gee, that's an awful lot for a brake job."

I'm planning to get back into it again just because I like it. My specialty was making freshly restored cars steer, start, and stop.

Bernie

Made me chuckle. We recently finished work on a British sports car that came here just to have the bonnet painted. As often happens there was a bit of "mission creep" and we ended up, at the owner's request, detailing the entire engine compartment, repairing significant hidden crash damage to the front end, doing a brake job which on this car requires dropping the rear independent suspension, etc etc. The customer's response "Wow, that's a lot of money to paint a hood".

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Here is a freshly painted part that is 28 years old and I doubt if more than 4 or 5 of the hundreds of thousands built have been treated to this detail. Cost to prep and paint: hidden in the invoices; added value to the car: negligible.

092211915a.jpg

The balance of skills mentioned above makes a successful combination. I did some work myself and the grunt work was done by my nephew. The money to pay him came from the profit of the sale of a project car to a guy with rose colored glasses. My nephew is rebuilding an 1800's house. I tell him he can get $80 per hour working on cars. You can hire an out of work carpenter for $15 an hour. Work on a car for an hour and pay the carpenter for 5.

I have seen many areas in life, outside of the car hobby, where the simplicity of that thought gets overlooked.

Bernie

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Running a restoration shop.............. Overhead $10/hr, taxes 15/hr, non billable time screwing around 25/hr, aggravation dealing with customers 5/hr, aggravation dealing with vendors 5/hr, general aggravation dealing with the project car 5/hr. Net profit $15/hr................. Rebuilding the house.......... labor saved $15/hr, Time not wasted waiting for out of work carpenter to show up 5/hr, Time not spent correcting crappy job by out of work carpenter 15/hr, time not spent arguing with wife about out of work carpenter 5/hr, lump sum saved not paying lawyer to defend liability/injury claim by uninsured out of work carpenter $10,000, lump sum saved in materials not screwed up by out of work carpenter $1000, aggravation saved, incalculable.

Restoration shop............$15/hr profit ulcers and early death

Working on restoring your home ............$35/hr profit, $11,000 cash saved, aggravation minimal, adoration by your wife for making your house your home.

If was easy everyone would be doing it.....................Bob

Edited by Bhigdog (see edit history)
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We used to provide full medical coverage for our employees paid 100% by us. At the end a family policy was costing us over $6/hr worked. We stopped providing coverage when O-Care kicked in and our rates were going to rise 48% in 1 year. We gave our employees raises equal to what the insurance was costing us.

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I do pretty good outsourcing work since the light came on about 20 years ago. I was going over a front and back porch rebuild with a Scottish carpenter. The guy was telling me all the reasons he wouldn't do what I wanted in a broken dialect that made me think "The Boat" was in my driveway. He had lived in the US for 30 years! I realized he couldn't speak the language because he had never listened to a word anyone had said to him. If he had he could have spoken our language fluently! I bet most of you know at least one of these people. You either work with one or married their daughter. I just stay away from the ones that roll their R's or use "mit" instead of "with". And that's just the carpenters. Henry Higgins could tell me he was a mechanic and I would still do that work myself.

Bernie

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I have a '42 Ford and early this year I asked for just a good driver quality job from a reputable body shop that does antique vehicles. I understand and agree with what he said, but can't afford it either. His response was, at least a year and $15,000 to start followed by "and we'll just have to wait and see what rears it's ugly head as we take it apart." I have taken it apart, it appeared very sound and mostly rust free while together. BUT several ugly things have "reared" their ugly heads as I disassemebled it. The final $$ cost will all depend on how much you decided to spend, which will determine the quality of the work done.

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Edited by edhd58 (see edit history)
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"I just want a driver"

'I understand, but can you tell me what you'd accept unfinished?'

"Well, none of it. What do you mean?"

'Should I do quicky incomplete body work or do that right? What about the final cut and polish, can we skip that?'

"No and no, I don't get it. Just because I want a driver?"

'Will what you do with the car have an effect upon how I finish it? Of course not, but where do I cut my process to meet your budget?'

"Just charge me less money, what's the problem?"

'Ok, bring it in on Feb 30th and we'll get started."

That was a real conversation about 7yrs ago.

I was once semi-scolded by a car show visitor. When he asked how long it took to restore a certain 34 Packard I told him just short of 3500hrs.

"3500 HOURS? I DARE SAY, WOULDN'T THAT PAY FOR A FEW COLLEGE EDUCATIONS?"

"F---in eh, it paid for mine."

A gentleman was concerned, adding up what he'd spent on a significant senior Packard conv and the hours to restore; "...I'd have every dollar it's worth in it when you got done if I go through with this."

'I suppose that's possible, but I'm missing the point.'

"There's nothing left for me at the end, and you act like it's no big deal."

'Who's car is it?'

"Well it's mine! What a dumb question!"

'So, again, what's the problem? YOU do a car YOUR way, YOUR color, leather, and there's nothing left?' (I really knew what he meant...)

"Nope, nothing left for me. I end up spending almost every dollar it's worth on the car and the work."

'You provide the car, I'll provide the labor and overhead, you provide all the materials and out-sourced service. We'll show it once when it's done then sell it, I'll get paid back for my labor, you get your money back on the car and materials, we then split the profit. How's that?'

"I'm not doing that!"

'Why not?'

"IT'S MY CAR!!"

'Good afternoon sir, can I help you?'

He left in a huff. Sometimes saying 'No' is more profitable than 'Yes'. These are real conversations I've had over the years, and all I can say about them is that the entertainment is sometimes priceless. And it's not just restoration, it's all of this car stuff. Years ago a guy's hood blew off his drag racer and cracked the scoop and hood corner real good (he'd forgotten to Dzus it down). "I need this fixed fast and cheap" 'Good luck with that. I'm not cheap.' "Well you are now, take it with you." 'Again, good luck with that...' He went to Walmart and bought a fiberglass kit and 2 rattle cans of black paint, did one of the most sloppy and laughable repairs I'd ever seen, then went to the track the following week and was telling folks "Look what Jocko calls good work...", angry that I refused his business. While a black eye and shoe leather suppository would be the right answer I just stood there. 3 of our fellow racers took him to task in a really hardcore fashion, one wanting to apply the black eye as well, yet I'm glad that didn't happen. He spent some very lonely nights racing for the next several weeks. I hadn't done any business with those guys, they simply knew better. And after those and others too numerous to mention, I still love what I do and still value the folks I do it with. That value is impossible to measure in dollars because it's truly priceless.

Edited by Highlander160 (see edit history)
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Judging from many of the posts on this thread, it's just not worth the trouble and $$ to have the "average" collector car professionally restored. I think I'll just continue to enjoy the hobby down at my "driver" level, rust spots and all. Although I'm a member, don't look for me at any AACA events.

To answer the question of the original post of this thread: "Typically how long does a complete body restoration take?" The answer: "More than the average guy can afford".

Cheers,

Grog

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When potential customers say they "don't want it perfect" I ask them "what part should we leave less than perfect"? Should I tell my painter to close one eye when he paints your car? You ok with a run here and there? Should I tell my mechanic not to check clearances on your engine assembly? Should I tell my upholsterer not to bother trying to sew a straight line? I have found that generally when people say they only want a driver what they really mean is they want a show car but don't want to pay for it. If you need to leave some things undone due to budgetary constraints that's fine just don't ask us to compromise our standards on the work you pay us to do.

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What does a round of golf cost? Maybe $100 factoring in equipment, cart rental and drinks in the bar afterwards? One round of golf a week over 20 years comes to $112,000. It's all in how you prefer to spend your fun money. If you're lucky you can get some of your money back when you park the car for the last time. Professional restoration certainly isn't for everyone but there is certainly something in the hobby for everyone.

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I have first hand experience with having work done thru a restoration shop. I purchased a car from a friend John (Keider31) and at the time I was working a lot and traveling a lot for extended period of time so it sat in the garage for a few years. Back maybe 7 years ago I heard enough questions as to what and when was I going to do something with it. I was still traveling a lot and making really decent $ but had started researching the value of the car if it were restored. Back then car values were thru the roof and it seemed a no brainer to spend the money to at least have the body work done and I would handle the rest. I checked around and almost went with a somewhat local shop but decided at the last minute to go with probably a well know high end shop out of state. They had the car for 2 years, partly do to costs to me and partly do to other customers needs. It was just about the end of the two years that my job after 15 years was going to be ending as the company had decided after 80 years to exit the business. The car was delivered in late January and my brother helped me check it out and push it up the drive. After a few pictures I covered it up with a new car cover and pushed it into the garage. At that time the car looked just great. As it had been a number of years since I had done any serious work on cars I didn't want to break back into it with the car just returned, it was intimidated a bit and didn't what to do any harm to it. It was for this reason I decided to start working on the van and that project grew leggs of its own. Well John (Keiser31) was coming back to Michigan this summer for a visit as he was going to Dodge Brothers meet and wanted to check the car out as he hadn't seen it since it was it left his place. I pull it out and when he stopped by I uncovered it so all the "great" body/paint work could be show off. It was the first time that I really looked it over since it was delivered. There were flaws in the paint, a paint chip that someone had started to touch up (?), in the sun light I saw swirls in the hood from buffing, a hole that was not weld/filled for a molding in a fender (they filled the one on the other side. It made me quite sick. I was blinded by the light when it first arrived and didn't see any of these flaws. Not going to be specific here but costs to me for this end result it was $10 K many times over. There is a lot more to the story along with my personal observations of working with a restoration shop but I for one would not do it again. Scott...

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I'm thinking there are only two paths to a "sucessfull" restoration. The first is to have unlimited disposable income. The second is doing the job yourself where your enjoyment is in the journey rather than the destination. In neither case will the project go exactly as you desired...............Bob

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I'm thinking there are only two paths to a "sucessfull" restoration. The first is to have unlimited disposable income. The second is doing the job yourself where your enjoyment is in the journey rather than the destination. In neither case will the project go exactly as you desired...............Bob

Amen to that. The entire situation explained in four succinct sentences. Well done, Bob.

Cheers,

Grog

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I usually do my own work, but I've had two cars restored by shops. On one, the bottom 6 inches all around was gone from rust. On the other, I bought a rolling shell and many boxes of parts.

On each one, I did a lot of research and knew exactly what I had and what I wanted. The shops were local to me so I could stop in frequently. Both cars turned out exactly as I wanted, on time, excellent workmanship and at (pre-agreed) budget.

The men that did the work were my friends before the work began and still are to this day, and that's important. At least, to me it is.

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I'm thinking there are only two paths to a "sucessfull" restoration. The first is to have unlimited disposable income. The second is doing the job yourself where your enjoyment is in the journey rather than the destination. In neither case will the project go exactly as you desired...............Bob

Applause, Applause, And that is the way it is, Life in this place we call earth. Dandy Dave!

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I'm thinking there are only two paths to a "sucessfull" restoration. The first is to have unlimited disposable income. The second is doing the job yourself where your enjoyment is in the journey rather than the destination. In neither case will the project go exactly as you desired...............Bob

So true.

But, are you ever finished with a restoration?

My Roadmaster and I have been on a journey that my Dad started in 1970. Dad and I have had great fun along the way. Dad's journey ended with his Greater Reward three years ago. The Roadmaster and I are still on the journey....

Dad and the Roadmaster circa 1977

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Dad (straw hat) and the Roadmaster 2011

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Restorations are never truly over. It may be over for the shop with the last payment for the work done on a vehicle. It may seem complete to an owner for a time that has done the work their selves. Or seem complete with a sale of a recently "Finished Vehicle" . But the truth is that time takes its toll on these vintage pieces of our past and there is constant up keep and maintenance on them to keep the worthy of the road. This is the main reason so many become static displays in museums. But even at that, everything goes back to the earth eventually. Dandy Dave!

Edited by Dandy Dave (see edit history)
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