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Renault 1929 RY1 Monasix


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Hello Ben, John et al

Life is always busy, we returned just over a week ago from England, in all we spent three months away, basically six weeks in France and six weeks in England & Wales, two days in Belgium and two days in Holland. Our trusty 1934 Lagonda Rapier was on the road driving "somewhere" every day. The total distance covered 5,150 miles.

Right now I an desparately trying to decide whether to take on the Renault, a major restoration, requiring a complete new body and a full mechanical rebuild or to buy a 1924 Rover 9/20 that is more or less complete but never the less needing restoration. Both are relatively rare and are approximately the same size. While a side valve engine the Renault has a much more sophisticated chassis, servo assisted four wheel brakes etc. The Rover has an over head valve engine but an extremely simple chassis, rear wheel only brakes etc. It still has its original two seater body in relatively sound condition.

The Renault is French with a good spares availability (ex France) The Rover is English with a good Owners Club (in England) but no real spares organisation. As I said in my first post; Where to now? Just to complicate matters the Renault is missing ALL the gearbox internals. Spares are probably available but almost certainly only in France.

It is a bit like choosing between a bumpy road with spectacular scenery or a smooth highway with no scenery.

If I take on the Renault I can do everything, leaving the gearbox until last which would give us an excuse to go to France again at some time in the future. Against that I am now almost 78 and who knows how much future?

Bj.

post-51681-143142695229_thumb.jpg

1924 Rover 9/20.

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Wow. Tough call, Bernie. Both cars have their challenges. The Rover might be less work overall, but is certainly less sophisticated than the NN. Compared to the Renault, the Rover looks quite prosaic. The Rover's front suspension would have serious oversteer at "speed" The Renault would definitely stand out in a crowd.

Terry

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The top speed of the Renault is only 70 km/h and it is French. That's enough to cast my support for the Rover.

Vous avez un problème avec les voitures françaises, DJ? :) It does appear that thé Rover has a slightly better top speed, but it has much less character. To my eye the Renault has much more je ne sais quoi. It gets my vote.

Terry

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UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 2 Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="69" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 3 Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="70" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Dark List Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="71" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful Shading Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="72" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful List Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful Grid Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="19" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="Subtle Emphasis"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="21" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="Intense Emphasis"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="31" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="Subtle Reference"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="32" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="Intense Reference"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="33" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="Book Title"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="37" Name="Bibliography"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" QFormat="true" Name="TOC Heading"/> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-priority:99; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin-top:0in; mso-para-margin-right:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:10.0pt; mso-para-margin-left:0in; line-height:115%; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-bidi;} </style> <![endif]-->Vous avez un problème avec les voitures françaises, DJ? - Do you have a problem with French cars DJ? :)

<dl><dt> je ne sais quoi

</dt><dd>lit. "I-don't-know-what": an indescribable or indefinable 'something' that distinguishes the object in question from others that are superficially similar.

Thanks for the humor Terry! :cool:

Nice to hear from you Bernie. Tough choices, any others to choose from?

Hello again from Kansas, USA!

Chuck

</dd></dl>

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Terry, you might be right that the Renault might have more character if the Rover really looks like this.

rover8%201922.jpg

I've just not been a real big fan of French cars but that opinion was influenced on their "cauchemars" of the 60's and 70's.

There are many really interesting "voitures d'avant-guerre".

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Terry, you might be right that the Renault might have more character if the Rover really looks like this.

rover8%201922.jpg

I've just not been a real big fan of French cars but that opinion was influenced on their "cauchemars" of the 60's and 70's.

There are many really interesting "voitures d'avant-guerre".

That's not it, DJ. This is the Rover 8 which has a two cylinder horizontally opposed air cooled engine. The 9/20 engine is a modern ohv unit of 1047 cc producing 20 hp, hence the 9/20 designation - 9 taxable horsepower, 20 brake horse power. Rover was in financial trouble in the 20's, partly because of rather pedestrian designs. The 9/20 in touring form at least, is ordinary in appearance. The Renault, or any Renault of the period for that matter, is quite distinctive in appearance. As Bernie noted, the Renault chassis is up to date for the time, but the engine not so much. Renault's engines for the most part at the time predated WW1. The NN has a dynostarter mounted on the nose of the crankshaft, a Renault feature from about 1913-14.

Terry

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You are all quite correct although it is a matter of personal preference. While my recent restorations may seem to point in a different direction, from an early age I have been a "light car" enthusiast. While the Rover has a more advanced engine and is marginally larger capacity, it is also much lighter weight and is essentially an open two seater while in its original form the Renault was a (heavy, 3,400 lbs) four door sedan. It has been pointed out to me that in the past I suffered a great deal of critism for changing the Packard from a fixed head coupe to a converible.

With the Renault, the original sedan body is so far gone that it would absolute (financial)madness to even think about restoring it. The timber body frame is entirely gone as has all the upholstery and interior trim.

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The only way I would comtemplate restoring it would be either as a replica Labourdette Skif tailed roadster or as a Drop Head Coupe.

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The Rover still has its original two seater roadster body, fenders etc and would be a straight forward restoration.

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Added to all this while the Renault has a good spares availability (Depanoto), this is in France so there is both a language and distance problem.

Bj.

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Rovers were populat during the early 1920s in England competing in most of the long distance reliabiliry trials.

There is an extensive collection of period photographs on the Austin Harris web-site : http://www.austinharris.co.uk/photo/1923-colmore-cup-trial/856.\

Go to the web page then select Rover from the table on the left side. There is a never ending supply of fascinating photographs from the late teens to the 1930s available. This is ofcourse if you happen to be interested in pre WW2 English cars.

Bj

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Given those details Bernie, there is no question the Rover is the better candidate for restoration. In addition, if that's the kind of vehicle you're most comfortable with, then it's a no brainer. Go for it. :D

As for the Packard, it was your car. For those who were critical it was NOTDB, frankly. (I wasn't,:))

Terry

PS None Of Their D**n Business!

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Hello

At last I have been forced to make a decision, the vendor of the Rover has decided for me. He now thinks that he should "store" the car himself.

Please note: I used the term "store" as apposed to "Restore" This means that he is going to leave it in his barn along with the remains of several dismantled 1920s cars and do nothing.

Oh well! I have now paid for the Renault and plan to collect the first load of parts over the weekend 13/14 September (in two weeks time).

I collected the bits of the Dynamoteur yesterday and can only hope that at least some of the rest of the car are in better condition. I have started a world wide search for a replacement. It is a Paris-Rhone 12 Volt Type D-2R. If you look closely at the third photograph you will see that it is the remains of a brush holder with the crucial part neatly broken off. Not a good start! With the weight of copper and brass in one of these I am sure that lots have found their way into the scrap mans bins. But there is sure to be at least one on a shelf somewhere. If only the French would reply to e-mails! Even just the ones sent in French!!

Bj

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If you get bored easily? Do not hang about because this is going to take quite some time. Looking at the last two photographs you will note that the gearbox mounts directly onto the front end of the torque tube. The aluminium box behind the gear box contains the "works" for the mechanical brake servo. (power-brakes in 1928.) The First problem is to find a complete set of ALL the internals for the gearbox. Sounds like fun, brush up on your first year French for a start.\

The "ball" end on the front of the gearbox is where it mounts onto a chassis cross member. It also contains the universal joint on the end of the short drive shaft from the clutch. Think that sounds "weird" it is only the beginning!.

Go to www.les-renault-d-avant-guerre.com Then look for, Le coin des 6ch à radiateur arriere.

Bj.

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I have now done a trial/dummy assembly in order to detirmine if I have sufficient of the essential parts to proceed. As a result I have sent off a long shopping list to Depanoto in France. Next task is to take it all apart again and start in earnest.

Bj.

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Hello John et al.

Depanoto is a French firm of specialist car spares and dismantlers. It is now over 100 year old and into the fourth generation (I think) Unfortunately they are very slow in replying to requests for assistance from outside France. You can see them at www.depanoto.fr They have a huge range of 'stuff' for French cars of all ages.

Now there has been a further development. I have found a second 1920's Renault 6Cv that has been resting for quite a number of years. The owner who is just a little bit older than myself feels that he may never get around to fixing it so he may sell it.

Regarding those tyres they must be around 70 years old and rock hard. They would not have held air for the last 50 years.

Bj.

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  • 3 weeks later...

I have now been to look at the 1923 Renault and hope to successfully negotiate its purchase over the next week or two. These things are sometimes more complicated than others. It is just one of a bewildering array of rare and exotic vintage cars, all in similar condition and all to a more or less extent dismantled. Quite unbelievable! None would have been moved or for that matter touched for many many years. Just getting the Renault out of the "shed" will be a huge task in itself. At least one other car will have to be moved before I can remove it. There is a post supporting the roof about 24 inched directly in front of the Renault. Either that or demolish part of the rear wall of the shed. This would also involve moving several items of household furniture.

Bj

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Regarding "Depanoto", being French they will only deal with French speaking customers and then only if you turn up at their door, cash (Euros) in hand. They do not even reply to e-mails that originate from outside France.

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Time to find a French NN restorer who is close to Depanoto! I'm thinking that the tourer is the more desirable car, but I would be tempted to put the tourer body on the later chassis or at least put the later front axle under it to get the benefit of front wheel brakes.

Terry

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Hello John

Part of my problem is trying to decypher the enormous range of vehicles that Renault built during the 1920s These ranged in engine size from under 1 litre up to over 8 litres. 2, 4, 6, and 8 cylinders. Amazing! It is worth spending some time attempting to navigate your way through the French website;- www.les-renault-d-avant-guerre.com

Bj

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Oh well! you know what they say about waiting for the fat lady to sing. It has happened again.... the vendor of the little 1923 Renault has decided that "his daughter really wants it" so all bets are off! This means that my efforts can now be concentrated on the 1929 Renault 1.5 Litre Monasix.

Bj.

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Well! as the well known Australian outlaw Ned Kelly said as he mounted the scafold "Such is life"....

I could be forgiven for muttering much the same. On saturday morning I returned to,as I believed, to finalise the purchase on the little 1923 Renault tourer, only to have my socks promptly ripped off. The vendor bless his little heart announced the the deal, if we ever had one, was off! His "daughter" had decided that she really wanted to restore the Renault. Given that the vendor is now in his 80th year, his daughter has to be in all probability between 40 and 60 years old, not normally an age when ladies start out on a carreer of Automobile restoration.

All this being so I am back to the original Renault "basket-case". The chassis has been stripped bare and the 60+ year old tires removed from all five wheels in preparation for going to the sand blasters. This has revealed that two of the wheels already have well base rims while the other three have beaded edge (clincher) rims. After sand blasting the next step will be to remove these rims and replace them with new 3 x 19 inch rims. The search for the correct 1927/9 six cylinder 1475cc engine will move up a gear.

Bj.

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Hello "On Safari"

Yes the NN was the final 1920s version of the 6CV . Renault made huge variety of cars, 2,4,6 and 8 cylinder versions between 1910 and 1939. Have a look at www.les-renault-d-avant-guerre.com/ and see for your self.

6CV is French for 6 horse power or to be more correct 6 horses of steam.(Cheval Vapeur) French horses are thought (by the French) to bigger and stronger than English speaking horses.

The NN 6CV was 951cc and by English RAC rating 9 HP.

Bj.

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How frustrating life can be when you play with antique automobiles? Just when I had decided to proceed with the Renault using the 951cc Four cylinder engine when I receive a phone call from a friend who tells me that an acquaintance of his in Switzerland has found a correct 1475cc Six cylinder engine. I guess it is now down to how much it is going to cost to have it shipped out to Australia. I really have to watch the budget on this one; as rare as they may be these little Renaults will never comand high prices. After the P*****D I simply cannot lose than much money on a car again!

For those scratching their heads, Renault used the same chassis for BOTH the six and the four. Both cars had almost identical performance probably mainly due to the extra weight of the all cast iron monoblock six cylinder engine, the four as well as being two cylinders shorter has a separate aluminium crankcase. The only difference is that to help stop the extra weight, the six was supplied with a mechanical servo driven from the rear of the gearbox to assist the cable operated brakes.

Decisions, decisions!

With some mild "tweaking" I can probably obtain very much the same power out of the four. Going on prior experience in all probability nobody is going to actually DRIVE the car once it leaves me. Thinking ahead, if it comes out as good as either the Dixie Flyer or the Packard, I would like to take it to France for the Paris - Deauville Rallye.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLN2ctCdqXM

Bj.

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Last I heard the Packard had joined a Private "Collection" in Canberra so it is very much still in Australia. Or at least as far as I know.

On the subject of the Renault, I now have a gearbox waiting in France for a courier to collect it and send it to me. I have sent the Paris-Rhone Dynastart off for a very expensive rewind and rebuild. Right now I am busy sorting out one usuable Bronze SOLEX carburettor out of the two I have sitting on my work bench.

I plan to start on some serious work on the chassis frame next week. I have the five wheels in the rear of my Peugeot ready to go to be sand blasted. I still have to work out a time to hire a pick-up truck to go and collect the four cylinder engine and some other parts that I could not fit in on my earlier trip. I should explain that these are 150 Kms about 2 hours drive each way from home.

Now that it is back home, I still have a bit of work to do on the Lagonda Rapier, so I am not sitting around with nothing to do. I would like to have made a start on the Renault body frame within 2 or 3 weeks time.

Stand back..........

Bj.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Another week gone by and not a huge amount to show for it. Our Australian Customs Quarantine Service decided that all our cars required pressure washing including under the hood. As a result virtually all six cars had drowned ignition and water in all sorts of places where water should not be. Just how it managed to even penetrate into the centre of the Lucas Altette horn completely baffles me.

A week later and the Lagonda is back to where it should be, starting "on the button". The good news is that have I managed to buy a set of four of the elusive 500 X 17 Michelin Comfort S tyres in England and they should arrive in Australia some time over the next week or two.

Meanwhile there are some small but necessary jobs being done on the Renault, exciting things like shackle plates for the front springs. The five wheels are being sand blasted and will be ready to collect early next week.

Meanwhile I am trying to establish the shades of the two tone green that the Renault Paris Taxis were painted in 1929, all 5,000 of them.

Bj.

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Thank goodness for e-mails and the internet. Gathering parts for the Renault would have been impossible even 25 years ago. I now have the gearbox securely stowed away in my garage, it having taken just over a week to come from the south of France. I paid for the clutch and the freight for it last night, again to another person living just south of Toulouse in south-eastern France. Hopefully it should take between one and two weeks to arrive at my front gate. I thought that the Dixie Flyer presented a challenge but it was nothing compared with the hoops I am jumping through with this Renault. At least I now have secured all the major mechanical components and I am making a start on sorting out the chassis and front suspension. My French vocabulary is improving too.

Those elusive Michelin 17 inch tyres arrived today too but they came from England.

It must be boring restoring a car that you can buy the parts from the corner store. It is amazing how you can send thousands of dollars across the world at the click of a button. I did manage to buy eight 10mm hi-tensile bolts and 16 nuts just a dozen miles from home.

Bj.

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You have to remember in the time that my car was being built France was just recovering from WW1 and the World was heading into the Great Depression. That Renault was not only making such a wide variety of models but in for then huge numbers. To give you some idea look at the conditions the workers assembled the 6CV chassis at http://www.les-renault-d-avant-guerre.com/t1753-Chaine-de-montage-du-modele-6CV.htm

Bj.

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