Reo Royale

[John_Mereness]

23 hours ago, alsancle said:

I should have posted this last month.  But my one Hershey find this year was actually a couple of period photos which made me a happy boy.

 

What do you think the story is on the photos ?  Your car ?

 

 

[alsancle]

It is the earliest picture I have.  I've got one from early 50s and then a few late 50s where you an see the license plate.  The two in this set predate those.

[edinmass]

Interesting photo, now for Pebble you gonna need a light to duplicate the photo......don’t forget the white walls......

Edited November 24, 2018 by edinmass (see edit history)

[alsancle]

1 hour ago, edinmass said:

don’t forget the white walls......

 

White walls?

[Steve_Mack_CT]

My guess is the spotlight up front wont be duplicated though... 😆

[alsancle]

Steve,  if you check out the Salon pictures in the first few pages you will see one with the single spot light.  But you are correct.  I'm not a fan of doodads.

[John_Mereness]

I am a big fan of the metal Spare Tire Covers!

 

Except for the RR-PI (which tire covers are incredibly rare for as they are 20"), I have tracked down metal covers for everything dad and I have owned (and they have been horrible to find and equally horrible to restore), but no modern 1930's car should be without them. 

 

[alsancle]

20 hours ago, John_Mereness said:

Except for the RR-PI (which tire covers are incredibly rare for as they are 20")

 

I'm really glad  you said that.  I have an original set of what look like NOS 20 inch covers I originally thought were Model J and was very disappointment.  I was going to toss them on the table at Hershey but now I have another idea.

[John_Mereness]

4 hours ago, alsancle said:

 

I'm really glad  you said that.  I have an original set of what look like NOS 20 inch covers I originally thought were Model J and was very disappointment.  I was going to toss them on the table at Hershey but now I have another idea.

Yes, they would be a nice addition to what I think your intention is.  The problem is that by the time metal tire covers came into vogue in about 1929 (though more so 1930), then 20" wheels were fading from the scene largely by the end of 1929 - except RRPI which held onto the 20" wheels a little longer as the cars are actually seem a little larger than a Duesenberg (have not had a PI parked next to a J).  It may take some playing around with tires (usually they do end up not having much air in them and I have even ground off the edge of the tread), but you will figure it out. 

Edited December 2, 2018 by John_Mereness (see edit history)

[West Peterson]

Packard had 20-inch wheels through 1930 on their 726 and 733 models.

[edinmass]

Stutz  ran 20 inch wheels quite late.......I have seen DV32 cars with them.........which I did question, but was told they were correct.

[alsancle]

3 hours ago, edinmass said:

Stutz  ran 20 inch wheels quite late.......I have seen DV32 cars with them.........which I did question, but was told they were correct.

 

Who told you they were correct? 

[edinmass]

The person who restored the car................

[alsancle]

27 minutes ago, edinmass said:

The person who restored the car................

 

Hmmm...

[West Peterson]

Hmmm... is right. As a magazine editor for 35 years, I've been told a lot of "stories" by owners that were just not true. I've learned to pay little attention to what owners say, unless the owner has been vetted.

[8E45E]

On ‎12‎/‎4‎/‎2018 at 7:46 AM, West Peterson said:

Hmmm... is right. As a magazine editor for 35 years, I've been told a lot of "stories" by owners that were just not true. I've learned to pay little attention to what owners say, unless the owner has been vetted.

I hear that all the time from owners who may have a less common vehicle.  They often claim theirs is 'one of one' and get angry when you inform them that you know of another car similar to his!

 

Craig

[edinmass]

On 11/24/2018 at 6:03 PM, alsancle said:

 

White walls?

 

If you look closely at the photo, it's clearly a car with double white walls, that have been covered over with tire black........the owners were too lazy to wash the car and tires. Anyways, at least you have proof the car came with white walls. 

[alsancle]

Forum member and historian Walt Gosden shared this picture with me of the Boston showroom for Reo.   Note how different the cars look from the restored versions.  I think the tires and colors are what is different.

[John_Mereness]

On 12/3/2018 at 5:51 PM, edinmass said:

Stutz  ran 20 inch wheels quite late.......I have seen DV32 cars with them.........which I did question, but was told they were correct.

Stutz seem a mixed bag as they say (so I would not discount the owner).  Being in Cincinnati  (so close to Indianapolis - the homeland for Stutz), we probably see more Stutz cars around 200 miles of Indianapolis than anywhere else on the globe.  My impression is while the company tried to standardize,  a lot of the cars seemed to get assembled with whatever they could get their hands on (aka also seen such as what appears to be a true 1933 with lockring verses drop center wire wheels). 

Edited December 8, 2018 by John_Mereness (see edit history)

[edinmass]

John, our DV-32 has a set of prototype or experimental Kelsey-Hayes drop centers on it........they were suffering from issues, so I had to make a new set, and they were different from everything else on the planet......such is the problems of one off show cars.

[Walt G]

Re the  photo I shared with A.J. of the Reo showroom and A.J.'s comment re colors of cars when new as opposed to what they may be restored to now.

GEEZ everyone, perhaps it is not good for me to comment on color choice, but for the 50+ years I have collected period material on pre WWII era cars which includes about 400-500 color chips that are about 4 inches by 2 inches with the formula on the back as well as the name , year and model of the car it says to me color choices were very conservative not only by the car manufacturers but by the car buying public. Even in warmer climates where car color choices leaned towards lighter colors ( due to darker colors holding the heat - ever lean up against a dark blue car on a hot day?) Most car owners no matter how fancy or striking looking their cars were so far as fender line and body style , stuck to the conservative choice . A totally light tan color on a car was a big deal.

I have journals and reports of what the popular colors were for specific years, auto shows , salons etc. One has to keep in mind if you could afford a $5,000 car in 1932 you really didn't want a flashy color as most people who saw it were either in low paying jobs or didn't have one due to the depression! Flashy colors meant you were 'in their face ' with your wealth, even if the car was a low priced car. You didn't have to prove you had $ then ( as people do now) everyone could tell.

All of this opinion I have is also based on the fact I did study color - I taught art for nearly 40 years. I always suggested to my students, if you have made a really excellent piece of art you don't have to have bright colors to make it better - if you do, people see the color not the form you have created, so all your creative effort in working to get that form was lost because of a flashy color. I would show them the same shape in a fairly conservative color and a bright color to make my point, usually the reaction was "wow" in both expression and verbal comment and most were in favor of the conservative colored example .

Ever go to a car show and stand back and wonder why one car which is nearly the same as another there just "works" so much better? It all has to do with color ( fender, body, pin stripe, wheels etc)

End of lecture for today😮.

PS I rarely judge at car shows because the judging team always knows that I will be very critical of non authentic /period colors on a car. I have had the comment made to me "but if you wanted to for $50 more you could have had the car painted any color you wanted " and my answer is - yes but people weren't making $50 per week so didn't have that to spend on special order colors"

Sarcasm on a Sunday - thanks all for reading this, now I will be quiet.

Walt G.

[edinmass]

AJ’s 1931 Rep Royal Full Custom Dietrich was a bright red tomato with gold fenders..........and it was the New York Auto Show car. I agree with Walt G. that 99.5 percent of the cars colors were very conservative. My favorite over the top example is the P1 Springfield Rolls Royce, with a Murphy Disappearing Top Roadster body, done in chrome yellow (Packard Chrome Yellow factory offering) with a raspberry interior. 

[alsancle]

What a great car ruined by the poor taste of the original owner.

Edited December 10, 2018 by alsancle (see edit history)

[Walt G]

Thanks Ed for your comment. The Auto Shows were where the general public were welcomed to attend,  and to catch the attention of the reporters for the local newspapers to report on what spectacular car was on display,  a bright colored car could be expected to be seen on occasion. the custom body salons held in NY, Chicago, LA and SF were by invitation only.

I do not recall ever reading a report of a salon display car done in a really bright color. The Derham bodied 1931 Franklin victoria brougham I owned for nearly 40 years had light colored fenders,hood and even light color on the axles and springs to match the light color of the fenders. This was a NY Salon car in Nov. 1930.

Before their passing I had lots of correspondence and conversations with Tom Hibbard, Enos Derham, Ray Dietrich ( Ray to a lesser extent) and especially Rudy Creteur of Rollston as he lived closer to me and he and I and Austin Clark used to go to lunch together on a regular basis. They all mentioned conservative colors , especially because they wanted people to see their design work, not be blinded by a bright color. All very fine gentleman who enjoyed talking about their pre WWII car activity. I can imagine at the time in the early 1970s they wondered why a "kid" in his early 20's (me) was just so interested in their work of 50 years earlier. They were artists in wood and metal from an era I always admired, and still do.

[edinmass]

6 hours ago, alsancle said:

What a great car ruined by the poor taste of the original owner.

 

The original owner was a young lady given the car for a school graduation present, and soon went and bought a 1929 Pierce 133 Roadster......it was easier for here to drive. Believe it or not, she dated Prestley Blake, well known Rolls Royce collector from Massachusetts and still alive and kicking at 103 years old...........Prestley is a charter member of the CCCA

 

ans as for the factory price for the yellow Rolls.......it must have been around twenty grand!

Edited December 10, 2018 by edinmass (see edit history)

[alsancle]

11 minutes ago, edinmass said:

ans as for the factory price for the yellow Rolls.......it must have been around twenty grand!

 

Nothing was more expensive in the U.S.A then a Springfield RR.

[edinmass]

10 hours ago, alsancle said:

 

Nothing was more expensive in the U.S.A then a Springfield RR.

 

In 1933 when the Pierce Silver Arrow was 10 grand, and the Car of the Dome was 8500, the Duesenberg Twenty Grand was 20K, A full custom Rolls with Brewster coachwork sold at the 1933 New York Auto Show for 28,300 dollars.......and without the fanfare and glitz of the press looking on..............but then again, the guy who dumped the 28k on the RR also bought another for himself, as the sedan was for the wife......so his total check was 54,000 for two cars in the early new year. Now that's spending money....when almost no one had any. Here is what 28,300 bought you back in the day.

Edited December 10, 2018 by edinmass (see edit history)

[West Peterson]

In addition to what Walt has so eloquently and expertly noted regarding color, I've been told that the few cars that were indeed painted wild colors to attract attention at the auto shows and salons... had to be, or were... painted in more subtle colors before they were delivered to the first owner.

[Walt G]

West you are totally correct, when the owners took delivery the bright colors were buried under a more conservative color or shade. This was also told to me in person by the coach builders I knew . People who had the $ in pre war days did not want attention brought to their wealth unless perhaps you were a favorite female star in Hollywood. The price of a really decent house in a village on long island in the prewar era was about $3,000 to $4,500 all while a full course meal was fifty cents. The wealthy had the $ but did not flaunt it , the Derham body on the 1931 Franklin I had cost about $3,500 - that is just for the body, the whole car was priced at $4,800. The fellows who worked for Derham were building a body that cost more then the house they lived in. I always look at the economic situation/climate that was present when I do research and write my storys, it really puts into perspective what things cost, by what people were making per hour or week etc. It makes you appreciate the cars we own even more be it a Plymouth or a Packard.

[alsancle]

3 hours ago, West Peterson said:

In addition to what Walt has so eloquently and expertly noted regarding color, I've been told that the few cars that were indeed painted wild colors to attract attention at the auto shows and salons... had to be, or were... painted in more subtle colors before they were delivered to the first owner.

 

Underneath all the paint,  the Dietrich Royale was red on the chassis, suspension, fenders, body, etc.  So,  I think the car started red,  then highlighted in sand for the show, then back to all red to sell.  

The red was described as "Tomato" and the paint chips I have from the original paint show a deep red, but not a bright color.   You guys know I'm a purist,  but I could not stomach painting a prewar car red.

[John_Mereness]

On 12/9/2018 at 9:40 PM, alsancle said:

 

Nothing was more expensive in the U.S.A then a Springfield RR.

This RR was noted in one of the Social Columns (along with her delivery of an 850K House) as being 22K (it is basically a body designed for a PII ("Dover") fitted to a true 100% L Series 1932 PI Chassis with all factory chassis upgrades  - November 1932 delivery) - but may have been a mercy buy as the woman (Valeria Langloth) was also their steel supplier (she also went on to pay an egregious price for the last unfinished PIII - thought to be a mercy buy to funnel money into England's War effort) - her foundation today focuses on health and mental well being of war veterans. 

 

By the way, this is where my love of Close Coupled Sedans come from - relatives brought this to Thanksgiving dinner in 1972 (I was 6 years old).  It was unrestored and painted black then with a white wool and white velvet interior.  If any original photo ever shows itself it may have been black with a creamy-yellow undercarriage when new.   There is a match to the car today in Dark Blue, but I do not know details other than seeing a photo of it for sale a few years ago.  Any way about it, for a company that was in dire straights you would think a factory photo to have survived - it would have been a big deal for RR to get a car out the door. 

Edited December 12, 2018 by John_Mereness (see edit history)

[alsancle]

If you read Hemmings you will see your cheapest opportunity to own an open Royale that you will ever find.

 

[John_Mereness]

On 2/2/2019 at 2:18 PM, alsancle said:

If you read Hemmings you will see your cheapest opportunity to own an open Royale that you will ever find.

 

 

Yes and no - it just depends on the quality of the work to this point (the Lester tires are fairly base line whitewalls and I noticed they painted the lockrings. plus that is a passenger's side door handle on the driver's side) , its' completeness as all its parts being present, and as Kermit the Frog said "it's not easy being green" - hate to say it, but GREEN = DISCOUNT (and people who like/love green cars still ask for the discount).  I do agree though that someone should have snatched this up months ago. 

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Hmm, as someone involved in buying and selling John, I have to assume your note on green is rooted in experience, but its surprising to me as I find a lot of green cars, especially on Classics, to be among the more appealing to the eye.

 

This car certainly has curb appeal, but your trained eye for the other details might reflect other cut corners.

Edited February 9, 2019 by Steve_Mack_CT (see edit history)

[alsancle]

I think the location is a big problem.  There is no easy way to get to south east Idaho.   A solid 4 hour drive from Salt Lake.  After you get to Salt Lake.

 

https://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/cars-for-sale/reo/royale/2173933.html

 

[alsancle]

Btw,  although there are probably only 50-60 known Royales of all body styles left,  the support system is pretty good.   There  is a group of owners that work together to fabricate and share parts.   There are projects going on for door handles, side mount covers, drive shaft boots, dash knobs, etc, etc.

If anybody has a car and wants to participate shoot me a PM.   Also, you can go here and introduce yourself:

 

http://reoroyale.freeforums.net/

[John_Mereness]

19 hours ago, Steve_Mack_CT said:

Hmm, as someone involved in buying and selling John, I have to assume your note on green is rooted in experience, but its surprising to me as I find a lot of green cars, especially on Classics, to be among the more appealing to the eye.

 

This car certainly has curb appeal, but your trained eye for the other details might reflect other cut corners.

Here is my experience with Pre-WWII cars - Greens, whites, beige's, fleshy tan's that were popular on 50's through late 60's restorations, tan/brown combos and especially tan/brown/orange combos, interestingly enough a lot of grey combos, metallic on anything that should not have them, "just does not look time period appropriate," and a few other color quirks I am sure exist that are not coming to mind  = generally all end up discounted to some degree (and again, the person who is buying may love it, but asks for the discount too as most realize they get stuck with the problem when they go to sell).  By the way, yesterday I was standing next to a Mercury Cyclone owner and he was telling me how rare the green color was and all that could cross my mind was "because literally no one wanted it and it may be rare, but ..." - I was nice though and said "Thanks for telling me all about it."

 

As an additional  sidenote too:  While plenty of exceptions, I have had to finish a few cars as have found incredible resistance on the part of buyers when selling an "unfinished/project car" for over 100K (all be it $99,000 seems to work) unless you are talking something that stands a serious chance of winning at a major concours. 

 

Again though, someone should pick-up the Reo Royale asap as not something that grows on trees and especially at this price.   

 

 

Edited February 9, 2019 by John_Mereness (see edit history)

[alsancle]

Don't forget 50% of all cars restored in the 80s was red.   Try selling one of those these days.    Unfinished projects are almost impossible to sell.    Bill will eventually sell this one because Reo Royale Convertibles are made of unobtainium.   This was a nice but older restoration that brought 280k not too long ago.

 

 

 

[Steve_Mack_CT]

I grew up with a guy whose dad argued with him for months suggesting he paint his ground up 39 chevy black because "they all were, and you dont need to worry about firewall, floors, etc. For judging.  Well he went with the original stone grey, which was actually.... green.  He still has the car 35+ years later.  I get the comments but never thought greens fell into that bucket.

 

AJ, ypu font need a parts car?  😉

[alsancle]

Steve,  seller is same guy I bought my car from.  I keep trying to go look when I'm in Idaho but its a big state!

 

Color tastes change every decade.   Pay attention to how many cars you see on the road that are not Black, White or Silver.   Very few.