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HPOF Award ??


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How can a 1956 Mercury Montclair receive a HPOF award when it has removed it's original front drum brakes and brake master cylinder and lines and added disc brakes, dual circuit brake lines a proportioning valve and dual circuit master cylinder???????:confused:

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If that's all that was done, it would be easy to receive an HPOF certification if nothing else has been done. It might be harder to get certification at the next level, HPOF Original.

Please show me where modifications that I described has anything to do with the description of the class per the rules below;

Features (HPOF)

The vehicles in this class represent

the evolution of automobile history and

depict originality over restoration. A

cornerstone belief of AACA is based

upon originality and this class allows us

to see history as it was and establish a

program to encourage the saving and

display of collector vehicles in their

original, as manufactured, condition.

Definition: Since its founding, AACA

has been dedicated to the preservation,

restoration, and maintenance of

automobiles. In the furtherance of

the “preservation” mission, the AACA

Board of Directors in 1987 established

a program to encourage the saving

and display of collector vehicles in their

original, as-manufactured condition.

The Historical Preservation of Original

Features program encourages owners

of vehicles 25 years old or older, to

maintain significant original features

Features

in this original condition, and to show

them at National Meets. A vehicle

may be entirely “Original” or it may

have certain original features such

as paint, chassis, upholstery, engine

compartment, etc. that are essentially

as delivered. These vehicles will not be

point judged. A vehicle being evaluated

for the first time, if certified, will receive

an HPOF board, HPOF chip, and

HPOF badge. The badge should be

visibly mounted on the vehicle. The

badge will be engraved with the year

awarded. A vehicle having achieved

the HPOF certification award is now

eligible for certification at a subsequent

meet in order to achieve the AACA

“Original” award.

Edited by helfen (see edit history)
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"The Historical Preservation of Original Features program encourages owners of vehicles 25 years old or older, to maintain significant original features. Features in this original condition, and to show them at National Meets. A vehicle may be entirely “Original” or it may have certain original features such as paint, chassis, upholstery, engine compartment, etc. that are essentially as delivered."

When the class was originated, it was not meant to showcase only cars that were 100% original. It was meant to feature cars that had a high percentage of originality to them. Most recently, the "HPOF Original" designation was added to highlight those cars that had even a higher percentage of originality.

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"The Historical Preservation of Original Features program encourages owners of vehicles 25 years old or older, to maintain significant original features. Features in this original condition, and to show them at National Meets. A vehicle may be entirely “Original” or it may have certain original features such as paint, chassis, upholstery, engine compartment, etc. that are essentially as delivered."

When the class was originated, it was not meant to showcase only cars that were 100% original. It was meant to feature cars that had a high percentage of originality to them. Most recently, the "HPOF Original" designation was added to highlight those cars that had even a higher percentage of originality.

OK got that, but disc brakes and dual brake circuits are on a car that didn't come with them is a large violation of originality. Even in mark specific car shows where modified cars have a class a car with disc brakes will automatically put you in a modified class. Thus AACA should NOT award a car HPOF status. Correct?

Edited by helfen (see edit history)
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Not my decision. You'll have to send a letter to vp of class judging.

Personally, I don't think it's a problem. It's not a judged class, but a class merely built to showcase cars with original features so that those who are restoring cars can see how the factory did it. If the upholstery is all original, that is valuable information. Or, if the engine still has all of its original wiring, clamps, brackets, etc., that is valuable information.

That said, I can't think of why anyone would want to put disc brakes on their 1956 Mercury in the first place, especially if they're not going to put radial tires on it as well... or perhaps they did. I never would. I like to experience the way cars drive the way they were built, and drive accordingly. If I wanted a car that drove like a brand new car, I'd drive my brand new car.

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Why does it bother you so much?

Bob

Please read #3 on this thread as it gives the definition of a HPOF car. That in itself is reason enough. Now read the August edition of Hemmings Classic Car magazine on the " The Big M " page 24. The car ( 1956 Mercury Montclair ) is touted as very special and it has won a ZZenith certification from the Bloomington Gold as well as a HPOF from AACA. This car has the modifications I listed in #1 of this thread.

So where do you stop with unoriginal additions??? Perhaps you would like to replace the Merc-O-Matic transmission for a new four speed automatic, how about rear disc brakes?? Wouldn't the car be better off with a newer 9" ford rear end?? And those headlamps are so dim compared to today's cars so how about updating those with some halogin lamps...for safety's sake of course! And what do you get, another modified car not representing HPOF purpose or intentions, and a Magazine telling everyone by showing such a car that it's OK with AACA. That's why.

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Life is too short for me to spend any time worrying if a car deserved a HPOF or not. I guess I just don't place it among the things I let bother me. I have even reached the point now that I couldn't care less if any of my cars ever win another award, etc. I have watched some of my closest friends die at a young age so I have decided that things like this - especially things that don't affect me directly - are not worth spending my life worrying about.

Since I have developed this attitude I have found my life is much more enjoyable.

just my 2 cents

Bob

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A letter to the VP of Class Judging will answer all of your questions, as stated above.

Wayne

Wayne, you've got 244 views so maybe you can call the guy up and have him respond so we all can see.

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Herb Oakes is in Lincoln, Nebraska today as are many AACA judges this weekend. He drove out here 26 hours straight, he told me. Herb never has time to get on these forums. He's a hands on type fellow. He answers letters pretty promptly, but has no time to view web sites. As I said, the easiest way to get your answer is either a letter mailed to him, or better yet, catch him at a local National event somewhere and participate in our judging system.

Got to get to Judge's Breakfast!

Wayne in Nebraska-the sun is shining this morning!:)

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Rules are rules. People should understand the rules, and then follow them. Too often now people do not follow rules, or shade the rules. That has nothing to do with the question on the 1956 Mercury. That's not my question to answer, but yours is. If you play, you need to know the rules and play by the rules, or don't play.

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Life is too short for me to spend any time worrying if a car deserved a HPOF or not. I guess I just don't place it among the things I let bother me. I have even reached the point now that I couldn't care less if any of my cars ever win another award, etc. I have watched some of my closest friends die at a young age so I have decided that things like this - especially things that don't affect me directly - are not worth spending my life worrying about.

Since I have developed this attitude I have found my life is much more enjoyable.

just my 2 cents

Bob[/QUOTe

My sentiments exactly!!

Ben

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I always looked on restoring and driving antique cars as a hobby. A hobby is supposed to be something enjoyable. If you aren't enjoying a hobby find something else to do.

I don't mind people who are obsessed with winning awards - if that's part of the enjoyment more power to them. What I have a problem with is that apparently the younger generation (sorry) has been brought up in a world where everything is perfect. My generation was brought up to learn that life was not always perfect, not always fair, and you adapted to your current situation or moved on - you didn't try to change the unchangeable just because it doesn't make sense to you.

If someone objects to the AACA judging standards there are a lot of other clubs out there to join. Keep in mind that they all have their own rules that you may or may not like. You either play by the rules or set about in a constructive manner to change them. Before you do anything you need to find out WHY the rules are written the way they are. 9 times out of 10 you will find that there is a good solid reason the rules are written and enforced the way they are. Do not be too quick to judge things you don't understand.

Just two cents from an old timer who learned the art of listening and questioning at an early age.

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Just out of Judge's breakfast...They will have an HPOF CJE in about 30 minutes. Please attend a National Meet near you and ask those in charge up close and personal. It's free! They like the face time.

Earl, Lloyd and Jane Riggs just received a Special National Judging Award, and inducted into the Honors Society. They drove all the way over from Walnut Creek(?), CA to be with us.

Back to the show field....

Wayne

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No dog in this fight, but I have a comment.

This head judge guy that doesn't do internet or visit web sites. Then you guys complain about not being able to lure the younger generation into your fold.

You need to get with the times to grow, or at least maintain.

helfin has made an observation that seems legitimate and still has no answer. (or at least one that he wants to hear)

And yes I do see his point as the guidelines are posted and the car in question is obviously modified, the beginnings of a street rod if you will. Is that what makes it special?

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I grew up in the model A world where at shows you lost points if a bolt and cotter pin was turned in a different position then what was shown in factory photos! The A's were assembled by people that would assemble as they saw fit. I had a chance to look over a 1929 town sedan with 3000 original miles. This car had paint runs going up the fenders from hanging after being dipped, and different number of threads above nuts on the head bolts. I say drive them don't show them. Since then, I enjoy owning very low production rare cars and trucks. Very few experts!

On this subject, I think modified brakes etc. is not original and should bounce a car fom the class. Just my 2cents worth!

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No dog in this fight, but I have a comment.

This head judge guy that doesn't do internet or visit web sites. Then you guys complain about not being able to lure the younger generation into your fold.

You need to get with the times to grow, or at least maintain.

helfin has made an observation that seems legitimate and still has no answer. (or at least one that he wants to hear)

And yes I do see his point as the guidelines are posted and the car in question is obviously modified, the beginnings of a street rod if you will. Is that what makes it special?

I think that with all the comments counted Jack comes close to understanding what my point and what my question was. I posted the rules for the class so it would be clear what a HPOF car is. It's clear to me the Mercury violates the rules and that means the car and the rule book are not the issue. The judging standards are are in place and I expect to play by the rules in it. I know now where the problem lies, which as nothing to do with the two mentioned items.

To vermontboy, without laws and rules we are nothing as a society, we can see parts of our society deteriorate by not applying laws that are already written for our own good. To ignore these rules or laws we only exacerbate the problems. A perfect example is ignorance of law in regards to U.S. immigration and now that we've ( government) looked away for whatever reason and so we now have a huge problem. In regards to the Mercury, what would I tell my grand kids if they asked after being schooled by the rules and myself why that car has that award? It is important, especially to kids that it matters from the innocents of a car club to the highest points of things we do in personal life, society, government.

I know no greater turn off for a car club to people than seeing a award given to a car that doesn't deserve it.

Letting a car that's modified remain in a class contributes to the divisiveness of the class itself and for the people who have worked hard to maintain a correct car a huge disservice. You are teaching kids and other impressionable's that rules don't matter.

Edited by helfen (see edit history)
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I have my personal opinion on this subject and when I have the opportunity to voice it personally, I will. In the meantime I have more of a problem with the lack of respect shown to VOLUNTEERS who have spent literally THOUSANDS of hours developing and participating in the judging system to make it the best and most fair to all of us. "This head judge guy" Herb Oakes has served terms in a number of areas of responsibility in the club including National president. To accuse him of being out of touch with the needs of the club is laughable at best. If you have a question about an issue write him a letter, he WILL reply by mail or by phone, but he will reply. To expect him to monitor web sites is ridiculous. Spend YOUR time if you think an issue is important, he will then spend HIS to answer. I am not an officer of the club just a member. Some years ago, I had an issue and opinion with the formation of a new class of judging. At the time Herb was VP of judging (an office he stepped back into again voluntarily this year due to the inability to serve of the person in the office). I wrote him a letter with my opinion and he not only replied by mail, he asked for permission to call me to discuss it. He did so and we spent some time and a couple of conversations discussing the subject. What is even more important is he LISTENED and took my opinion into consideration. I suggest instead of throwing stones, you take some action in a positive way and show you are truly concerned (if you really are and not just making noise) by taking the first step and writing a letter.

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West, I think that there are two points that have been raised that National should be aware of:

1) It seems strange that a car with drastic modifications should be eligible for HPOF. Street rods have SOME original features but I think we would all agree that they are not HPOF eligible.

2) I know that Herb Oakes, VP of Class Judging, is an extremely dedicated AACA Director but I think that it would be beneficial if he contributed to this discussion. You will recall that there were extensive comments on the thread about the re-bodied Stearns Knight recently and his only comment appeared much later in the AA. Jack M's comment about attractive new and younger members is well taken. As one of the old timers in the hobby, his point is one that I had not thought of but is relevant.

Please take these comments in a positive manner as areas where the hard working AACA directors and officers might look at.

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Jack M,

In defense of the VP of Class Judging, Herb is certainly available and responsive to AACA Members. He is simply a letter or an email away. Most of Herb's communiction with members is probably by email. I know that he has indicated in the past that as the easiest way for folks to communicate with him and for him to quickly reply. I understand that he receives so many emails that it does occupy so much time that he rarely has time to read this forum. AACA is run by a board of directors who conduct the business of the club by following the procedures as found in the policy and procedure manual. A club this size is not run informally. The discussion forum is a great part of AACA, but it is not the way the club officially conducts business.

Wayne is also correct that you can certainly attend a meet and discuss concerns with the Chairman of the HPOF Committee or the VP of class judging or any other board member in person.

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Dave, thank you. The fact is that Herb among others have tired over the years of the anonymous and semi-anonymous posts on this forum. Many were not from AACA members and just designed to stir the pot. So few people in charge visit the forums very much. Our directors are volunteers and spend a lot of their own personal money to do their jobs and unfortunately some people ruin it for others as the attacks in the past have been vicious and uncalled for. Unlike other clubs that may have one national meet a year AACA has many and our people are on the road as much as 150 days of the year. Think about that!

I try to help out here and answer things and obviously West jumped in as he is employed by the club. Unfortunately I was in trial all week representing AACA from a tragic incident at a region car show (thankfully we won). Just got back today.

The fact that the car in question was not only recognized by us but by the other organization says that at least two groups felt the car had enough of its originality left to recognize it. The intent on HPOF has always been to allow people to see an interior, exterior, engine compartment or chassis that was completely original. To not recognize a car that may have had one of these major areas changed but the rest of the car stock would be to deprive people of seeing how certain main aspects of the car were as they came from the factory. Our Original award would never be given to a car with this kind of modification unless the car was evaluated in the rain! Some cars get a "pass" if the weather is so inclement that you really cannot judge a car normally.

In judging and evaluating cars there is always the element of subjectivity. In my answer to members over the years about awards and judges it has always been this: While it may bother me to see a car get an award it should not have, it bothers me far more if a car does not receive an award it deserves! We are a hobby and the club does it best to work with over 5,000 cars a year and 1,000 judges. It ain't always easy folks..mistakes happen!

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My opinion is that the brake job is not, in itself, a drastic modification.

As for the opinion of "booting the car from the class," that would be akin to booting a car out of a judged class for having plastic valve stem covers when they should be metal.

This hobby is supposed to be fun. The HPOF class was created so that those who had cars that could not compete in the judged classes would have some place to feature their mostly un-restored cars. Some restoration and/or modifications do not eliminate it from being "certified HPOF." It is much harder to achieve the HPOF Original certification, though, if you have altered the car in any way.

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My opinion is that the brake job is not, in itself, a drastic modification.

As for the opinion of "booting the car from the class," that would be akin to booting a car out of a judged class for having plastic valve stem covers when they should be metal.

This hobby is supposed to be fun. The HPOF class was created so that those who had cars that could not compete in the judged classes would have some place to feature their mostly un-restored cars. Some restoration and/or modifications do not eliminate it from being "certified HPOF." It is much harder to achieve the HPOF Original certification, though, if you have altered the car in any way.

West, where does it say any modifications are alright?

Features (HPOF)

The vehicles in this class represent

the evolution of automobile history and

depict originality over restoration. A

cornerstone belief of AACA is based

upon originality and this class allows us

to see history as it was and establish a

program to encourage the saving and

display of collector vehicles in their

original, as manufactured, condition.

Definition: Since its founding, AACA

has been dedicated to the preservation,

restoration, and maintenance of

automobiles. In the furtherance of

the “preservation” mission, the AACA

Board of Directors in 1987 established

a program to encourage the saving

and display of collector vehicles in their

original, as-manufactured condition.

The Historical Preservation of Original

Features program encourages owners

of vehicles 25 years old or older, to

maintain significant original features

Features

in this original condition, and to show

them at National Meets. A vehicle

may be entirely “Original” or it may

have certain original features such

as paint, chassis, upholstery, engine

compartment, etc. that are essentially

as delivered. These vehicles will not be

point judged. A vehicle being evaluated

for the first time, if certified, will receive

an HPOF board, HPOF chip, and

HPOF badge. The badge should be

visibly mounted on the vehicle. The

badge will be engraved with the year

awarded. A vehicle having achieved

the HPOF certification award is now

eligible for certification at a subsequent

meet in order to achieve the AACA

“Original” award.

All I ask is you play by your own rules, anything else is just playing politics. The description of the class is designed to take the human element out of the process so that true survivors can be presented fairly.

I have no problem if you change the rules so you can fit modified cars into the class, just put it in the rules. One thing for sure from where I see it is you will surely water down the intent for the class's existence.

Edited by helfen (see edit history)
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West, where does it say any modifications are alright?

Features (HPOF)

... A vehicle

may be entirely “Original” or it may

have certain original features such

as paint, chassis, upholstery, engine

compartment, etc. that are essentially

as delivered...

All I ask is you play by your own rules, anything else is just playing politics...

Right there, that's where!

The rules state the vehicle may be entirely original or have certain original features such as paint. chassis etc.

I haven't seen the article or photos of the car in question but from my reading of this thread, I presume that although the car is not entirely original the only significant departure is the disc brakes.

My 1947 Dodge got HPOF certification at Hershey in 2010. It has a 1975 repaint but other than that and a very few minor details (ie plastic valve stem caps) it is original, albeit very ratty. Original interior, engine, chrome, glass, etc. I took the judges training at that meet and IIRC the threshold for HPOF recognition was 70% or more original. One major deviation, such as my repaint (or disc brakes?), was not enough to disqualify the car.

Them's the rules.

Edited by Bamfords Garage (see edit history)
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helfen,

It appears that you have, at least twice, answered your own misdirected comment in your quote:

A vehicle

may be entirely “Original” or it may

have certain original features such

as paint, chassis, upholstery, engine

compartment, etc. that are essentially

as delivered. These vehicles will not be

point judged. A vehicle being evaluated

for the first time, if certified, will receive

an HPOF board, HPOF chip, and

HPOF badge.

It appears that others have also responded to you more than adequately.

For anyone to address the VP-Class Judging in a derogatory way is severely misinformed at best, and intentionally disrespectful or worse - and entirely uncalled for.

The Mercury in question has areas which are entirely authentic and original. According to the guidelines set forth for HPOF, the number of areas does meet "OUR" criteria.

I know that you have provided detailed information on this FORUM in the past. I don't know if you are a member of AACA, or if you actually support the hobby in any other specific way, or if you occasionally just enjoy "Poking a Hornet's Nest".

As others have suggested, we encourage you to be a contributing member, to attend our Meets, to attend a Judging School, and to actually be supportive in a direct, personal, and visible manner, as so many of our volunteers have continued to do for so many years. Yes, they do so, giving their time and doing so at their own expense, frequently as couples and families!

Edited by Marty Roth (see edit history)
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Guest drnittler

The above person's efforts are appreciated. I think a car is original or not. When you add and/or change drastically something on the car (like the above mentioned brakes) it becomes modified and is not original anymore. Thus it should be disqualified from HPOF classes and enter a modified class.

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The above person's efforts are appreciated. I think a car is original or not. When you add and/or change drastically something on the car (like the above mentioned brakes) it becomes modified and is not original anymore. Thus it should be disqualified from HPOF classes and enter a modified class.

For my taste, original cars, almost irrespective of condition, are more appealing and interesting than restored cars. I would rather drive and really use my ratty old '47 Dodge than a pristine restored example (my bride does not share this perspective!)

But it's not quite original — there is that 1975 repaint and a few lesser items.

In your view expressed above, should my car be disqualified from HPOF and enter a modified class?

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I realize I am beating a dead horse here but while I would prefer that all of my cars be 100% original, there are some things that got changed on some of them before I got them. That does not keep one of them from being a HPOF certified car and the other from being an AACA Original HPOF certified car.

HPOF means Historic Preservation of Original Features... it does not mean Historic Preservation of 100% Original cars. That is too high a standard to expect. While I would never modify the brake system on any of my cars to any sort of updated disc brakes, I still understand that that modification is not enough to deny a car an HPOF certification under the AACA's Judging Guidelines.

The rules are what they are. No amount of complaining about it on the forum are going to change them. If you feel that the rules should be changed, there is a process to lobby to change them. Complaining about it on the forum is not the way to get the rules changed.

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I didn't read back to see just who said what, but I didn't throw any stones here. My comment that this judge guy is a bit out of touch is simply an observation and I apologize if I related to him in a way that was derogatory. I only wanted to point out the the old duffers are going to lose the club if they don't get with the times.

It sounds as if this guy is a huge asset to the club and I am happy that you have him.

I am not a member, nor do I ever plan on becoming a member so I am a fly on the wall so to speak.

I enjoy this forum as I have been a car guy all of my life and I feel that my experiences could be of some value to others so I chime in from time to time.

I like to help people when I can and this is a good place to do that as well as gleaning info for myself.

If the judging rule are vague then maybe some clarification is in order and I think that has been happening in this thread.

I have no desire to ever have any of my cars scrutinized by anyone other than myself. As there only has to be one person that is happy with them.

On a side note, one of my cars showed up in a magazine article once titled 'How Not To build A Street Rod'. The authors name was in the article so I contacted him with a comment (my car was unfinished but at least I made the show and shine, he had an issue with the wheels that were on the car temporarily). It turns out that he bashed a dozen or so cars in his writing and he drives a Prius. What a jealous putz.

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I would agree 100% with First Born. My understanding of HPOF is that a car does not have to be 100% original, just have significant original features to make it eligible for HPOF. Not to hard for me to understand. Maybe the owner wants to tour and considers this a safety feature as I do. I would give the owner the benefit of the doubt. At least he took the time and expense to bring is to a show. Look around your own collection, large or small and ask your self when was the last time each car was on the AACA show field? Just my 2 cents worth. Bob Smits

Edited by Robert G. Smits
spelling (see edit history)
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Right there, that's where!

The rules state the vehicle may be entirely original or have certain original features such as paint. chassis etc.

I haven't seen the article or photos of the car in question but from my reading of this thread, I presume that although the car is not entirely original the only significant departure is the disc brakes.

My 1947 Dodge got HPOF certification at Hershey in 2010. It has a 1975 repaint but other than that and a very few minor details (ie plastic valve stem caps) it is original, albeit very ratty. Original interior, engine, chrome, glass, etc. I took the judges training at that meet and IIRC the threshold for HPOF recognition was 70% or more original. One major deviation, such as my repaint (or disc brakes?), was not enough to disqualify the car.

Them's the rules.

Exactly, Original features. I do not see a problem when a guy replaces a beyond repairable bumper with nos or a good used bumper because it's a original feature and the highlighted portion of the rules reflect this as well as paint etc. Disc Brakes are not original features period. To allow them is to compromise the rules.

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I know that you have provided detailed information on this FORUM in the past. I don't know if you are a member of AACA, or if you actually support the hobby in any other specific way, or if you occasionally just enjoy "Poking a Hornet's Nest".

Lets stick to the topic thread and not talk about past postings. That's the first no no of any discussion as you should know, but if you don't you must realize this could lead to deviation of the original talking point.

Does it matter if I'm a member or not. The answer is no, because this forum is open to the public. So you shouldn't be asking that.

And no, I do not enjoy poking a Hornets nest, or as Steve implied when he said "stirring the pot" !

I asked a simple question to which excuses for original features was given, A replaced original fender for a damaged original fender as well as the paint that goes with it is still a original feature. Disc brakes are not and you know it. As Steve said it's possible that the possible inclement weather or something of that nature or a judge that was not thorough in examination, although it seems impossible to me to miss a dual circuit brake master cylinder as that was the first thing I saw in the engine compartment picture of the car.

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Does it matter if I'm a member or not. The answer is no, because this forum is open to the public. So you shouldn't be asking that.

And no, I do not enjoy poking a Hornets nest, or as Steve implied when he said "stirring the pot" !

.......

That is incorrect. A non-member has no stand in proposing changes to another group's rules and regulations! WE do not make changes of policy and procedure on the AACA Forums. They were not, and will not ever be used for those changes!

Wayne

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Helfen

The HPOF class was established to feature cars that still contain some original features, I believe in attempt to give car owners an option of NOT restoring certain parts of their car that may not be up to snuff for judging, but that provides valuable information to restorers of like automobiles. Pure and simple, the Mercury still contains some original features, exactly the way the class is defined.

The next-step-up "HPOF Original" designation signifies a car that has not had any major restoration or modifications.

There are plenty of confusing things about the AACA judging system, but this isn't one of them.

Edited by West Peterson (see edit history)
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That is incorrect. A non-member has no stand in proposing changes to another group's rules and regulations! WE do not make changes of policy and procedure on the AACA Forums. They were not, and will not ever be used for those changes!

Wayne

Exactly what you said " WE do not make changes of policy and procedure on the AACA Forums. They were not, and will not ever be used for those changes!"

So it does not matter if your a member of AACA or not

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