OEM, Mild Imposter or Imposter

[Guest clamshells]

Goldie's poor performance prompted checks and or adjustments: points, rotor, cap, spark plug gap, dwell, timing, setting carbs to factory settings with only slight improvement. I then checked manifold vacuum (vacuum was 9 inches). I then took the car to my trusted muffler shop. A exhaust back pressure test confirmed restriction. A visual of the proper Gran Sport 2 1/4" pipes, resonators all checked out until we examined the transverse muffler was a custom made unit, the muffler is a work of proficient skill but obviously the smoking gun and must be replaced.

Waldron Exhaust offers a OEM, Mild Imposter and high flow "aggressive sounding" Imposter muffler. Anyone have experience with with the 'Imposters' ?

Would a visually correct exhaust system (a little louder) be a point deduction?

Clams

[RivNut]

Would a visually correct exhaust system (a little louder) be a point deduction? Clams

Quick question that could alleviate some of your trepidation. In your signature you only list the ROA in your memberships; no BCA, AACA, or other vintage/antique/classic car organizations. If you're only going to have your car judged at an ROA meet, you need to be aware that ALL cars are peer judged. There are 95 - 99 owners who can't tell a '63 from a '65. I can't tell the different between a 79, 80, 81, 82, 83, 84, or '85 and I've owned five of them.

No points in ROA judging, so no deducts. If someone likes your car best in its designated class, he/she votes for it. Keep in mind that when I write he/she every registered attendee at an ROA meet gets a ballot. That would be the member and another registered guest - most commonly your wife. Her vote counts just as much as yours (mine) and she might not know anything except "that one's pretty." When my wife and I went to the 2005 meet in Eureka Springs, AR, she liked a certain '64. I told her that the rally wheels weren't available in '64 and that the engine had quite a few items painted the wrong color. It had an aftermarket radio and was running on radial tires. She said "I don't care; I like the color. I'm going to vote for it." If it's only ROA events your thinking about, an 'imposter' muffler would be the least of my worries. You'd better worry about whether the ladies think it's "cute."

Don't get me wrong, the ladies (as well as drivers of cars not in your class) deserve to vote as much as anyone. Just keep in mind that NO ONE is a professional judge at the ROA events and you're not judged on points. It's just like when cheerleaders are picked in high school. It's a popularity contest. And until things change, which they probably will not, peer judging is here to stay.

I'm not in the BCA so someone can confirm this, but I don't think you have to start your car for a judge.

Ed

[Guest carlbraun]

I just hung the waldron 2 1/4" GS exhaust system complete with resonators and big hot water tank muffler...the OEM original ROUND muffler. i bought mine and would assume its an imposter as they said there was a quiet design and a high flow design...i went with the latter. Their site says they supply imposter (lower restriction) style as the default unless you request the "quiet" muffler.

All of the components of the system are larger than i expected...meaning...I've had Ram Air GTOs and a 68 440 Charger and their 2 1/2" exhausts didnt seem as beefy or physically 'big" as the 2 1/4 waldron system. The waldron system seems closer to a 2 1/2" system. Nice.

The dash and engine wiring harness are going in and, after thats done, i'll fire the car and hear first-hand what the system soounds like. I anticipate its gonna be louder than i expect.

Edited June 21, 2014 by carlbraun (see edit history)

[Guest carlbraun]

RivNut

at the risk of jacking the thread i'd like to say that I've never been to an ROA meet or have seen the judging but, as an outsider looking in, I see the judging criteria that you describe as a detrement to the Riviera hobby. Specifically, when i judged GTO cars, the GTOAA wanted to mimmick what the vette guys were doing...correct EVERYTHING!!! Grease pencil markings, NOS pieces everywhere, matching parts date codes, etc. I'm not saying thats for everyone but I'm building my Riv as close to the day it left Flint as possible.

I would suggest that the ROA (?) judging should include a set of classes to set the cars apart including a "popular or best-of-show class" that would allow the ladies to pick their "cutest" car with bumble bee stripes and the hula girl on the dash.

In order for the Riviera to establish itself with the likes of Corvettes, GTOs, Cadillacs and, anything else that has 4 wheels and is older than 1970, the ROA needs to have a class that bases the resto and criteria on a point system that is judged by Riviera experts that know the difference between a GS exhaust system or the correct T-3 headlight.

Just spouting off as I dont intend to show my Riviera...just my opinion...I wonder if there are othes in the ROA that feel the same way?

[Guest clamshells]

I just hung the waldron 2 1/4" GS exhaust system complete with resonators and big hot water tank muffler...the OEM original ROUND muffler. i bought mine and would assume its an imposter as they said there was a quiet design and a high flow design...i went with the latter. Their site says they supply imposter (lower restriction) style as the default unless you request the "quiet" muffler.

All of the components of the system are larger than i expected...meaning...I've had Ram Air GTOs and a 68 440 Charger and their 2 1/2" exhausts didnt seem as beefy or physically 'big" as the 2 1/4 waldron system. The waldron system seems closer to a 2 1/2" system. Nice.

The dash and engine wiring harness are going in and, after thats done, i'll fire the car and hear first-hand what the system soounds like. I anticipate its gonna be louder than i expect.

Hi Carl,

I look forward to reading threads as you make progress on your Riviera Gran Sport. The system on my car is also a Waldron (except the muffler) my muffler guy was impressed as it is chunky. Let us know how you like the sound.

Mike

[Guest clamshells]

Hi Ed,

Excellent analogy. If they get that knit picky I'll be dinged for shocks, hose clamps, oil breather and the wrong license bolts..............lol

[devildog93]

I think if they change it there should be multiple classes then and the popularity of each can spell out what people want. Personally, i don't care if the grease pencil markings are correct or if it has an aftermarket ac, radio, etc. I grew up running around to Starbird car shows and drooling at drag cars, customs, and what we now call resto mods. I definitely lean towards resto mods, but i also understand why they shouldn't be judged next to a car that is trying to be totally original. I give people credit for their work no matter what class their car is and can see the "cool" factor in both. The main thing is that the cars are running and driving instead of rusting out in a junkyard or someone's back lot.

[RivNut]

Carl in North San Diego,

The Riviera Owners Association has lived and prospered well over the past 30 years because we're more of a family that enjoys being around their cars and other people who have an appreciation for the same things. The ROA has members who are also BCA members. They enjoy both the peer judging and the professional judging of both organizations. Out of the 100+ cars shown at the last meet in Lexington, there was less than 2% of the cars trailered to the meet. I think that in peer judging merit is also given to the fact that the cars are drivers and not just show queens trailered in for competition. Starting this year, the owner of the car will be required to tell the public that his/her car was trailered to the event. There will be a block on the dash card checked off by the person taking care of registrations to make sure this is completed.. This gives even more credibility for judging those cars that are driven.

We've lived by a couple of saying over the past years: "The first meet you attend for the cars, the next ones you attend for the people." and from the wife of a trustee a few years ago when asked what she was planning for her summer vacation, "We're having a family reunion with the Riviera Owners."

Different strokes for different folks. We're not trying to establish ourselves as a clone of some other group.

Ed

The above statements are my opinions alone and do not represent those of the ROA. (But they're close )

Addendum:

Unlike the other cars you mentioned, the first generation Riviera were intended as a limited edition. 40,000 of 40,000 units were sold in 1963. Because of that, there will never be the demand for the reproduction of hard parts as there are for the cars you mentioned whose numbers were in the hundreds of thousands. Therefore much of the restoration process for these cars won't reach the level of those cars for whom reproductions parts are abundant.

Say you want to restore a 1970 Chevelle SS. Just contact Dynacorn Classics and order one up.

http://www.dynacornclassicbodies.com/images/70Chvlcoupe_collage.jpg

Is this really a restoration or is it a brand new car that appears to be a 1970 Chevelle.

Edited June 21, 2014 by RivNut (see edit history)

[RockinRiviDad]

The main thing is that the cars are running and driving instead of rusting out in a junkyard or someone's back lot.

X2

David

[Guest carlbraun]

Carl in North San Diego,

The Riviera Owners Association has lived and prospered well over the past 30 years because we're more of a family that enjoys being around their cars and other people who have an appreciation for the same things. The ROA has members who are also BCA members. They enjoy both the peer judging and the professional judging of both organizations. Out of the 100+ cars shown at the last meet in Lexington, there was less than 2% of the cars trailered to the meet. I think that in peer judging merit is also given to the fact that the cars are drivers and not just show queens trailered in for competition. Starting this year, the owner of the car will be required to tell the public that his/her car was trailered to the event. There will be a block on the dash card checked off by the person taking care of registrations to make sure this is completed.. This gives even more credibility for judging those cars that are driven.

We've lived by a couple of saying over the past years: "The first meet you attend for the cars, the next ones you attend for the people." and from the wife of a trustee a few years ago when asked what she was planning for her summer vacation, "We're having a family reunion with the Riviera Owners."

Different strokes for different folks. We're not trying to establish ourselves as a clone of some other group.

Ed

The above statements are my opinions alone and do not represent those of the ROA. (But they're close )

Addendum:

Unlike the other cars you mentioned, the first generation Riviera were intended as a limited edition. 40,000 of 40,000 units were sold in 1963. Because of that, there will never be the demand for the reproduction of hard parts as there are for the cars you mentioned whose numbers were in the hundreds of thousands. Therefore much of the restoration process for these cars won't reach the level of those cars for whom reproductions parts are abundant.

Say you want to restore a 1970 Chevelle SS. Just contact Dynacorn Classics and order one up.

http://www.dynacornclassicbodies.com/images/70Chvlcoupe_collage.jpg

Is this really a restoration or is it a brand new car that appears to be a 1970 Chevelle.

...case in point...

BTW, Look for my Riviera at the national meet this weekend. It will be the green one with orange flames, 454 big block with a blower and rollin' on 24s...sitting on the trailer. I hope all of the ladies like it!

[RockinRiviDad]

...case in point...

BTW, Look for my Riviera at the national meet this weekend. It will be the green one with orange flames, 454 big block with a blower and rollin' on 24s...sitting on the trailer. I hope all of the ladies like it!

ROFLMAO!!!!!

David

[RivNut]

You'll probably want to park yours next to this one.

[Guest clamshells]

You'll probably want to park yours next to this one.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]254699[/ATTACH]

About time Ed posted a pic of his car.

[devildog93]

Damn, i know everyone's tastes are different...but damn. When i call a car art i mean it in the functional sense. When someone takes something so far that it isn't even roadworthy, then i really don't know what to say about it. Expensive paperweight or flashy boat anchor i suppose.

I don't know that i really need this cleared up, but i am trying to decipher the scribble on the side and figure out the meaning....does it say donkey frog? Also, if that is right, then what the hell does it mean? I didn't think i was that old that i don't even get slang any more, but maybe so.

[Guest clamshells]

Damn, i know everyone's tastes are different...but damn. When i call a car art i mean it in the functional sense. When someone takes something so far that it isn't even roadworthy, then i really don't know what to say about it. Expensive paperweight or flashy boat anchor i suppose.

I don't know that i really need this cleared up, but i am trying to decipher the scribble on the side and figure out the meaning....does it say donkey frog? Also, if that is right, then what the hell does it mean? I didn't think i was that old that i don't even get slang any more, but maybe so.

Donkey: kicks in the back, juiced or hot rear. Frog: hops forward, juiced or hot in front.....................just a guess. When I see something like that I make sure to avoid looking at it and giving the owner the time of day.

[slosteve]

There are a small number of younger guys that are into building 'Donks', a '70, '80's car (usually GM) that might have a flashy paint job but WILL have giant wheels with rubber band tires and set quite high off the pavement. (?!)

Steve

[Guest clamshells]

There are a small number of younger guys that are into building 'Donks', a '70, '80's car (usually GM) that might have a flashy paint job but WILL have giant wheels with rubber band tires and set quite high off the pavement. (?!)

Steve

Better them than I

[Don McClair]

Ed in answer to your question regarding the Dynacorn 1970 Chevelle body, it is a brand new body shell licensed by GM. In a prior life where I worked, Dynacorn was one of my vendors and I have seen their reproduction bodies close up. For those who are not familiar with them they make tons of reproduction parts for Mustangs, Camaro's and others including body shells for Mustangs, Camaro's and 49 thru 1984 Chevy truck cabs and other parts. These bodies are pricey but good quality.

Regarding Waldron's mufflers I would be interested in others opinions on the "mild imposter" sound versus the original style muffler sound for the first generation Rivi.

[Guest clamshells]

Regarding Waldron's mufflers I would be interested in others opinions on the "mild imposter" sound versus the original style muffler sound for the first generation Rivi.

Hi Don,

Waldron's website had a drop down box in their online ordering system, the drop down box offered OEM, Mild Imposter and Imposter. Waldron claims they didn't realize the wording or 3 option until I inquired about these 3 options, but assured me there are only 2 options: Mild Impostor(GS OEM) and Imposter. My other OCD personality ordered both mufflers. I'll receive the OEM style Mild Imposter in about a week, install and test engine vacuum and exhaust back pressure and record the results. The Imposter takes about 5 weeks to manufacturer and another week to ship. Once I have the Imposter (better flow and more aggressive sound) I'll install The Imposter and preform vacuum and back pressure tests, report my opinion on sound/noise, performance and post them here for all.

Mike

Edited June 24, 2014 by clamshells
requires editing (see edit history)

[RockinRiviDad]

I just ordered my "mild imposter" muffler from Waldron's 2 hours ago. I spoke with Ruth (her info below) who is a wealth of knowledge in the business of exhaust systems. She spent time explaining to me that they have "3" options for me to choose from OEM (restrictive), Mild Imposter (less restrictive) & Imposter (high flow, least restrictive). I chose the mild imposter cuz I will NOT be running resonators & she explained that I will more than likely be happy with the aggressive sound I am looking for. Without resonators the Imposter may be too loud.

Mike, Looking forward to the results you end up with. Thx for going above & beyond to provide that type of info for us.

Ruth E. Frisbie

Sales Administrator

Waldron's Exhaust

www.waldronexhaust.com

Ph# 800-503-9428

Ph# 269-467-7185

Fax# 269-467-9041

David

Edited June 24, 2014 by RockinRiviDad (see edit history)

[95Cardinal]

Clamshells,

The "mild Impostor" is internally similar to the original Corvair "turbo" mufflers.

It will give your Riv a throatier, muscular sound.

The "Impostor" has the same internal flow path as the mild version, but with larger internal tubes for higher flow rates. It will be harsher and louder than either of the other options.

There are some sound clips on the Waldron's site, but they are mostly with Pontiac engines. The white 71 GTO was my car back then.

Impostor mufflers:

OE Type mufflers:

There is a noticeable difference, especially under heavy throttle and deceleration.

You'll probably also hear a significant difference inside the car.

It will be interesting to hear the difference in these mufflers on your Riviera.

Edited June 24, 2014 by 95Cardinal
added comments for clarification (see edit history)

[RockinRiviDad]

Awesome clips 95C! I'm even more excited to get mine now lol

David

[Guest clamshells]

I just ordered my "mild imposter" muffler from Waldron's 2 hours ago. I spoke with Ruth (her info below) who is a wealth of knowledge in the business of exhaust systems. She spent time explaining to me that they have "3" options for me to choose from OEM (restrictive), Mild Imposter (less restrictive) & Imposter (high flow, least restrictive). I chose the mild imposter cuz I will NOT be running resonators & she explained that I will more than likely be happy with the aggressive sound I am looking for. Without resonators the Imposter may be too loud.

Mike, Looking forward to the results you end up with. Thx for going above & beyond to provide that type of info for us.

Ruth E. Frisbie

Sales Administrator

Waldron's Exhaust

www.waldronexhaust.com

Ph# 800-503-9428

Ph# 269-467-7185

Fax# 269-467-9041

David

I am leaning towards the Imposter w/ resonators on Goldie, Mild Impostor w/o resonators on The Ghost. We will both know first hand how the Mild w/o resonators sounds :-) The information I got from Ruth yesterday contradicts the information you got from her today. I'll be calling Waldron first thing in the morning to clarify this 2 or 3 muffler option.

Update: For the Rivera Gran Sport 2 1/4" system Waldron offers the Mild Impostor or Imposter, a OEM or Imposter are made by order only for a 2/14" Riviera GS whereas the Mild Imposter is the default muffler for a 65 Riviera Gran Sport or a 1st Gen 2 1/4" system. If a guy wanted a OEM (quiet 2 1/4") Waldron will make it.

So yes there are 3 options for a 2" base Rivi system and 2 options for GS as I know first hand what running a OEM muffler does the the driveability and performance of a 2-4 set up, trust me no one wants the OEM on their dual quad car unless you want quiet, poor idle and Prius-like acceleration.

Edited June 25, 2014 by clamshells
just to really confuse everyone (see edit history)

[Guest clamshells]

Finally got around to removing the custom made transverse muffler the previous owner had on Goldie. The tubes ran all the way through with tiny holes, no baffles, no chambers, just the inlet pipe completing a loop from one side of the motor to the other with only perforations creating any relief. The outlet tube was also continuous inside the muffler with the same tiny perforations making the left and right tail pipe one pipe. It is a wonder the car ran.

Installed Waldron's Mild Imposter on a GS 2 1/4" system with resonators. Engine fires with some enthusiasm but nothing like the Vroam of The Ghost with glass packs and true duals (plus whatever else may be hiding in that build) I'll be taking Goldie down for a back pressure test and then having the Imposter installed for more appropriate dual quad muscle car sound and slightly better flow.

IMNSHO: if you want correct, by all means go correct. If you want a few horses unleashed go true duals with packs or turbos, but I think David has winner with the Mild Imposter (no resonators). The water tank muffler is a good distance from the engine, the cooler gases compress easily finding their way through the large muffler and looses the 'pat-pat" sound for more of a classy rumble sound.....all in theory, but it makes sense from here.

Edited July 3, 2014 by clamshells (see edit history)

[Guest clamshells]

FYI: engine vacuum and exhaust back pressure readings are the same for both Mild Imposter and Imposter. The differences in construction is a 5" larger chamber (13 1/4" vs 18 1/4") as seen in the pictures: note the spot welds.

The longer chamber inside the incidental length muffler casing is of course created by shorter inlet and outlet internal(s) perforated tubes. In addition to the internal tube being shorter they are also larger diameter (unfortunately the pics didn't come out as intended) inside the full Imposter.

The Mild version is IMO as close to 1965 as it gets Super Quiet as compared to the Imposter. Both versions tested on the same car with correct 2 1/4" Gran Sport bends, resonators and tail pipes. The Imposter rumbles but no where near obnoxious, barley noticeable inside the car a little more out the back.

Engine vacuum read 15-16 at idle & back pressure 1.5 at idle for both Mild & Imposter mufflers. Both mufflers peaked at 6 on the pressure gauge with all 8 barrels open.

[Guest Im4darush]

9" manifold vacuum? Is there a cam in this car? My 401 pulls 15-16 and I think thats low.

[Guest Im4darush]

Are you thinking that the increase in back pressure is causing that much drop in manifold vacuum? Did they pack the muffler with sand??

[Seafoam65]

Quick question that could alleviate some of your trepidation. In your signature you only list the ROA in your memberships; no BCA, AACA, or other vintage/antique/classic car organizations. If you're only going to have your car judged at an ROA meet, you need to be aware that ALL cars are peer judged. There are 95 - 99 owners who can't tell a '63 from a '65. I can't tell the different between a 79, 80, 81, 82, 83, 84, or '85 and I've owned five of them.

No points in ROA judging, so no deducts. If someone likes your car best in its designated class, he/she votes for it. Keep in mind that when I write he/she every registered attendee at an ROA meet gets a ballot. That would be the member and another registered guest - most commonly your wife. Her vote counts just as much as yours (mine) and she might not know anything except "that one's pretty." When my wife and I went to the 2005 meet in Eureka Springs, AR, she liked a certain '64. I told her that the rally wheels weren't available in '64 and that the engine had quite a few items painted the wrong color. It had an aftermarket radio and was running on radial tires. She said "I don't care; I like the color. I'm going to vote for it." If it's only ROA events your thinking about, an 'imposter' muffler would be the least of my worries. You'd better worry about whether the ladies think it's "cute."

Don't get me wrong, the ladies (as well as drivers of cars not in your class) deserve to vote as much as anyone. Just keep in mind that NO ONE is a professional judge at the ROA events and you're not judged on points. It's just like when cheerleaders are picked in high school. It's a popularity contest. And until things change, which they probably will not, peer judging is here to stay.

I'm not in the BCA so someone can confirm this, but I don't think you have to start your car for a judge.

Ed

ED, having been heavily involved in the GTO hobby for 43 years, I would be of the opinion that the ROA has the right idea in not going overboard

with point judging. It would create a lot of arguments and hurt feelings at ROA national meets, and you would have to get a lot larger lot for trailer parking. I've

owned an enclosed trailer for 25 years and own several trailer queens but my Riviera will not fit in my trailer and I have no intention of buying a larger one as I

bought the Riviera to drive! If someone wants to have their Riviera point judged there are other venues where they can have that done. I've been driving the 65

to out of town shows and I find out quick I can have a lot more fun driving down the highway at 70 miles per hour in the Riv than sitting next to my GTO in a lawn chair!

[Guest clamshells]

Are you thinking that the increase in back pressure is causing that much drop in manifold vacuum? Did they pack the muffler with sand??

The original muffler tested had no chamber. One continuous inlet with only perforations relieving the exhaust into the muffler to escape through yet another continuous tube connecting the tail pipes. It was amazing the car even ran.

Edited July 31, 2014 by clamshells (see edit history)

[Guest Im4darush]

Wow....you would have been better off with sand...LOL

[Guest clamshells]

Wow....you would have been better off with sand...LOL

Speaking of sand...............that is where the guy had his head when he built the muffler. (G Rated)

[Guest clamshells]

Are you thinking that the increase in back pressure is causing that much drop in manifold vacuum? Did they pack the muffler with sand??

The answer is yes vacuum increased from 9 to >15 instantly.

[RockinRiviDad]

Finally...Here is a short clip of my Waldron's Imposter muffler, 2-1/4" pipes throughout & NO resonators. I thought it would be louder than this. The true test will be if I get any drone in the cab when I get the body on. As u can see that will not be any time soon.

http://youtu.be/eJS5acBH39w

David

[Guest clamshells]

Finally...Here is a short clip of my Waldron's Imposter muffler, 2-1/4" pipes throughout & NO resonators. I thought it would be louder than this. The true test will be if I get any drone in the cab when I get the body on. As u can see that will not be any time soon.

http://youtu.be/eJS5acBH39w

David

From what I can tell it sounds great..................just like the sound I want.

I am having The Ghost set up with resonators and the pipes over the axle only. Taking that set up for a drive while Goldie gets new resonators and her OEM muffler reinstalled and make a decision the either run resonators only or the Mild Imposter w/ resonator deletes. Thanks for the video/audio it sure sounds good and helps a lot.

I hate the drone!

[Guest clamshells]

I had my muffler guy install the complete set up: 1965 Riviera Gran Sport in SS. Between the cost, the shipping, the install requiring adjustments I am into a horrible sounding exhaust for just under 1800.00.

I suggest you research your system(s), components and desired outcome very carefully.

[60FlatTop]

Here is my 425, stock pipes back to the muffler flanges, then a 2 1/2" equalizer pipe in place of the muffler. A Tee on each side leads into a 2" Hushpower 12" body with chrome tips, rolled at the end: http://brockportinternational.com/xjs/Dir5/Riviera/64riviera.mp3.

Eight bolts and it all drops down so the stock muffler can slip right in for church on Sunday.

Bernie

[Guest clamshells]

Here is my 425, stock pipes back to the muffler flanges, then a 2 1/2" equalizer pipe in place of the muffler. A Tee on each side leads into a 2" Hushpower 12" body with chrome tips, rolled at the end: http://brockportinternational.com/xjs/Dir5/Riviera/64riviera.mp3.

Eight bolts and it all drops down so the stock muffler can slip right in for church on Sunday.

Bernie

The link won't play. "corrupt file".

I am interested to see and hear it.

Mike

[Guest clamshells]

Take it from my experience a resonator you can see through is going to make your car sound worse then fingernails scratching a chalkboard.

[RivNut]

The link won't play. "corrupt file".

I am interested to see and hear it.

Mike

Played for me. Sounds like a Buick V8 with non-stock exhaust.

[cool57]

I had my muffler guy install the complete set up: 1965 Riviera Gran Sport in SS. Between the cost, the shipping, the install requiring adjustments I am into a horrible sounding exhaust for just under 1800.00.

I suggest you research your system(s), components and desired outcome very carefully.

So exactly what components make up the system?