bifda

1926 Standard 6 brakes setup

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Robert,

You misread me. Wayne is doing a great job on a challenging restoration. I was making a certainly bad and probably inappropriate joke that if we never heard from him again we would always wonder if he lost his brakes on the test drive and crashed. Of course now we have not heard from him in 5 days. But I am sure it is because he has having too much fun driving his car.

Nathan

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Nathan, I too had to read your first post twice before I realised what you were saying!! However I can confirm that the test drive was fine.

Today I have fitted everything back together, and although it is 10:30pm here I took the old girl for a test drive. The brakes actually work!!! I think that I have some adjusting to do to the rods as although it states in the book that the rods are non adjustable, I had to make new ones and so the lengths maybe slightly out.

When moving at a little over walking pace the rear brakes lock up. When going faster the rear brakes do start to screech as if they are trying to skid slightly, when a fair amount of pressure is applied, however I am not sure if the fronts are coming in soon enough. I think the rod to the rear needs lengthening so that the oil pump mechanism engages sooner than it currently does.

I maybe applying too much pressure and therefore making the prop stop turning thus preventing the pump working. It maybe a learning curve to work out the characteristics of the brakes. However I think I am finally on the right track.

One annoying thing I did today though, was I broke the pot metal angle drive for the speedo cable, this is made by Stewart. I am not sure how I did it as I don't remember knocking it, however when putting the top clevis pins in the brake rods I noticed it was cracked all the way around. Maybe one of the bolts that hold the drive shaft to the transmission drum hit it when I was doing them up, as they were sticking out. If anyone has one of these drives for sale can you please let me know.

I did take a short video clip of the mechanism working so when I find my camera cable I will put it on here.

Thanks to everyone for their help

Wayne

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That's awesome, Wayne. Do you know when the brakes were last relined? It's possible that the locking up or grabbing could be caused in part by glazed or cracked woven linings. The rods themselves may not be adjustable, but the rear brakes definitely are. Also, the brake drums are pressed steel, not cast iron, and may be out of round.

Looking forward to the video clip!

Terry

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I have uploaded a clip to youtube showing the operating lever working and the pistons coming out.

The brakes work, but are not as responsive as I think that they should be, I am wondering if either the oil level has dropped now that I have driven the car and so any air pockets have been removed and also I wonder if maybe the hole I drilled for the operating rod to attach to the pivot, maybe a little bit too far away from the pivot point, so I am going to move the rod in slightly.

Wayne

Edited by bifda (see edit history)

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Hi Wayne

Definitely making progress, which is a good thing. :)

A couple of questions. I know you said that the speedo drive broke, but do you have any idea what the road speed would have been in the video? The faster the road speed, the quicker the response I would think.

I think I agree with you that the hole in the pivot for the pump operating rod is a little too far out. It is difficult to tell from the illustration in the service manual and even the picture in the parts book, but it looks like the distance from the centre of the pivot point to the centre of the operating rod hole is about half +- the distance from the pivot centre to the centre of the pump piston arm.

I also noticed that the rod from the brake pedal to the rear cross shaft is missing in the video. I'm presuming it was just removed ?

Terry

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Just had a thought which is related to the hydraulic assist - sort of. :D I believe your car is a roadster. Does it have a rumble(dickey) seat? About a three hour drive/ferry trip from me there is a RHD (in a LHD country) 26 Standard 6 roadster with the hydraulic assist. I was riding in it once with 4 other people - 3 in the front, 2 in the rumble seat - when the driver had to make a quick stop. Here's the thing: the rumble seat lid does not have a latch mechanism on it to keep it open under this circumstance. Just as he applied the brakes, the driver warned the people (adults) in the rumble seat to brace themselves and sure enough the lid started to close!! Didn't go very far but none the less it was a bit of a yikes! moment. :eek: Not a good place for youngsters.

Terry

Come to think of it - belatedly - there is a RHD 26 Standard 6 sedan with the hydraulic assist about 15 minutes east of me. :o

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Hi Wayne

Definitely making progress, which is a good thing. :)

A couple of questions. I know you said that the speedo drive broke, but do you have any idea what the road speed would have been in the video? The faster the road speed, the quicker the response I would think.

I think I agree with you that the hole in the pivot for the pump operating rod is a little too far out. It is difficult to tell from the illustration in the service manual and even the picture in the parts book, but it looks like the distance from the centre of the pivot point to the centre of the operating rod hole is about half +- the distance from the pivot centre to the centre of the pump piston arm.

I also noticed that the rod from the brake pedal to the rear cross shaft is missing in the video. I'm presuming it was just removed ?

Terry

Terry this video clip was done with the driveshaft removed and the speedo was showing about 25 mph. Also the rod that is missing is the one to the rear brakes, as I was just trying the mechanism before reconnecting everything.

Today I drilled another hole about 1/2" nearer to the pivot and the brakes do seem better, also it was low on oil so I topped that up.

In reverse the brakes (rear only) are very good and stop almost dead.

When going forward at a little over walking pace the brakes are not brilliant but they do stop, it seems the rears lock up and so the car skids. My car does not have a rumble seat, it has a trunk. When going down the road at approx 30mph the brakes are pretty good, there is a very slight delay but when they come on they are very good.

I am thinking that I may try re-adjusting the rears so that they work better. Studebaker said that the cars stopped well with rear brakes only, however I am not sure that my car would be great at stopping if it never had the hydraulic setup connected, so I think with a bit of adjustment they will be even better.

Wayne

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Considering where you started from Wayne, this is fantastic. At low speeds there won't be a lot of assist of course because the transmission is turning slower. If they are effective at 30 mph, that's excellent. Hopefully a little fine tuning will cure any remaining glitches.

Studebaker's idea of "stopping well" with rear brakes only would be in line with everyone else in the 20's, but a modern interpretation would likely not be the same.

Two thumbs up,sir!!

Terry

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Hi Robert,

I have been down that path. The Studebaker Museum has nothing prior to 1927. No drawing, no books.. period. I tried to get info on my 1926 Standard 6 Duplex Hardtop Coupe and Andy replied they have no information on the older vehicles, sadly.

There ia always a chance that the museum has a drawing of the piston.

Find the part number and request a drawing,

Andy Beckman is the archivist and he will email you a drawing for a fee.

http://www.studebakermuseum.org/p/archives-and-education/

Robert Kapteyn

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An update, of where I am at with the brakes on my 26 roadster. 

A couple of weeks ago I had the shoes on the front and the bands on the rear relined. The company that did the work bonded a soft material to shoes/bands and they tell me that this should help with the brake grabbing issue.

I have reassembled everything and set up the bands as in the manual, they do seem better than before and I am sure that once bedded in they will be better than ever before in my ownership.

As in my other post I am now trying to alter things so that the pump pushes the operating pistons out at a more responsive speed. Currently it takes about 1 - 2 seconds for the front brakes to work after pressure is applied to the pedal, I am thinking a thinner oil maybe needed as I currently have SAE 30 engine oil in the transmission, as suggested in the Studebaker workshop manual.

 

Any suggestions of a suitable oil would be great.

 

Once the front brakes work, they really do stop the car quickly, but it seems that they are either on or off, it is hard to get gradual pressure to the front brakes, this maybe a feature of the brakes, or it maybe that I don't have the pivot quite right on the operating lever I made up, as the original was missing. This maybe a bit of trial and error with the pivot, or just something that I will get used to.

 

Regards

Wayne

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I actually started a new topic on here so that I could put the latest question regarding grade of oil in the title, this resulted in a few interesting responses, see 

 

The advice has worked, and so I thought I had better update this post with my reply in case anyone in the future has the same problem and comes across this post.

 

 

 

Well.... today I went out and bought a gallon of 5W 30 engine oil, drained the transmission and filled it back up with this oil. I only took it on a short test drive, as here it is just below freezing and being a roadster it was a bit fresh to drive, however in the mile or so I drove what a difference, the brakes are now a whole heap better, they respond to the pedal being pushed and stop the car. 

I think I need to alter the length of the pivot very slightly as the brakes are a bit on or off, but they work instantly, instead of the 1 - 2 second delay I have been experiencing.

Hopefully if it warms up in the next couple of days I can take it for a longer drive and actually enjoy driving it, instead of being constantly on edge in case anyone pulls out.

 

A big thank you to the responses above, great advice which has actually worked!!!

 

Regards Wayne

 

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Hi everyone. I am a newbe at forum use. I am restoring a 1925 ER Studebaker Standard Six in Australia. I have the same  problem with oil leaking from the tailshaft/park brake pinion. Someone had reassembled the hydraulic oil pump and pushed the woodruff key out of the key way when sliding the gear onto the gearbox output shaft. I have repaired this and have set the pressure to 70lb. The brake assistance is now working but oil floods out the gap between pinion and housing. Was there originally packing in this gap? Regards Neil  

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12 minutes ago, Ausi Neil said:

Hi everyone. I am a newbe at forum use. I am restoring a 1925 ER Studebaker Standard Six in Australia. I have the same  problem with oil leaking from the tailshaft/park brake pinion. Someone had reassembled the hydraulic oil pump and pushed the woodruff key out of the key way when sliding the gear onto the gearbox output shaft. I have repaired this and have set the pressure to 70lb. The brake assistance is now working but oil floods out the gap between pinion and housing. Was there originally packing in this gap? Regards Neil  

 

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Hi there i live i Wagga Wagga NSW. Where are you? My email is meander24@bigpond.com  I have sorted out the brake problem. It was a matter of having the correct clearance at the oil pump gear face and machining the pinion and housing and fitting modern seals. I have just club registered the car and am working on fine tuning. Regards Neil

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Up on sunshine coast my brakes feel ok but it is loosing a little bit of oil out the back apparently there is no seal 

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My understanding from a man that owned a hydraulic brake car of this era, is that a power assist stop only occurred in the first half of the pedal travel , and as the pedal is depressed further the system went to a base brake mechanical brake feel. It was backwards of what one may reasonably think. 

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Mine was gushing oil out around the pinion when brake appled. There should be no high pressure oil there. I had high pressure oil escaping across the face of the oil pump gears into the low pressure side. I had about 1mm gap between pinion and housing which I believe should be a lot smaller. The housing has a sleeve pressed in with an oil slinger thread cut into it. Any low pressure oil that makes its way there is supposed to be returned by the thread(slinger) and there is a gallery with a drain hole back into the transmission resorvoir. I had my housing machined out and pinion turned down and fitted two SKF 16054 seals. Problem solved.

They are certainly a different brake. You only have front brakes when the tailshaft is turning which improve with speed. The rear brakes operate at all times the pedal is depressed.

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