1924 Panhard et Levassor X46 Clutch

[Guest 246gts]

Please excuse what may seem to some of you to be a stupid question!!!

Having hopefully just sorted the problem of oil getting into my cooling water system I have now transferred my attention to the clutch / gearbox.

All appears to be working well with the gearbox but I have trouble engaging gear from stop position, this appears to be a problem with the clutch and on referring to the handbook for jerky operation of the clutch it refers to lack of oil in the gearbox as a potential cause.

I have drained the gearbox and added the specified 2 litres of oil to that however following removal of the inspection plate in the aperture at the top of the gearbox casing there is a small hole in the front corner which feeds into the clutch compartment forward of the gearbox

I have always been of the impression that clutch and oil should not be in the same place! The car has a plate clutch and the presence of the small hole described above led me to look again under the car. There was the main gearbox drain plug but just in front of that in the area of the clutch were two small brass plugs. On undoing these a small amount of oil came out (1/2 pint) becoming bolder I ventured to pour a smaller amount of clean oil into the top hole and sure enough it came out of the bottom brass drain plugs!

the fuse is only shown for scale purposes.

I checked with an owner of a later (1930's) Panhard and his car specifies approx 0.6 pints of oil to be added into the clutch.

So, now for my STUPID question, what does this oil in the clutch compartment do??

David

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[Rusty_OToole]

There were different types of wet clutch used on cars and motorcycles. One was a multi plate clutch with alternating plates of bronze and steel. Another used steel with cork or fibre lining.

The American Hudson used a single plate wet clutch, with cork inserts.

In this type of clutch you must have some oil to lubricate and cool the clutch or it will burn out or simply refuse to function.

I had several English motorcycles with multi plate wet clutches. I found it worked very well to fill them with automatic transmission fluid instead of the recommended motor oil. The transmission fluid protects the clutch plates better, and allows them to work better and free off better, especially when cold.

Does the handbook specify what type of oil to put in the clutch compartment, and how much? If it does not say, it is possible the clutch is oiled from the transmission.

Incidentally, wet multi plate clutches work well when hot, but tend to be sticky and act as you describe when cold. Have you tried taking a long drive? It could be the clutch is working correctly and only needs to warm up.

The problem of balkiness or stickiness when cold, is one of the reasons they abandoned the wet clutch.

Edited June 15, 2014 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)

[dictator27]

I think you may have answered your own question, David. Early clutches were notorious for jerky operation. Having them run in oil smoothed out the engagement of the clutch. Hudson used wet clutches for many years - long after everyone else had stopped using them.

Terry

[Guest 246gts]

There were different types of wet clutch used on cars and motorcycles. One was a multi plate clutch with alternating plates of bronze and steel. Another used steel with cork or fibre lining.

The American Hudson used a single plate wet clutch, with cork inserts.

In this type of clutch you must have some oil to lubricate and cool the clutch or it will burn out or simply refuse to function.

I had several English motorcycles with multi plate wet clutches. I found it worked very well to fill them with automatic transmission fluid instead of the recommended motor oil. The transmission fluid protects the clutch plates better, and allows them to work better and free off better, especially when cold.

Does the handbook specify what type of oil to put in the clutch compartment, and how much? If it does not say, it is possible the clutch is oiled from the transmission.

Incidentally, wet multi plate clutches work well when hot, but tend to be sticky and act as you describe when cold. Have you tried taking a long drive? It could be the clutch is working correctly and only needs to warm up.

The problem of balkiness or stickiness when cold, is one of the reasons they abandoned the wet clutch.

The handbook,(not original), I have with the car merely says put oil in gearbox with no mention of clutch compartment oil. Presumably on my car there was a development where the clutch had its own compartment sealed from the gearbox and with its own oil supply, certainly this was the case with cars produced some 10 years later by the same manufacturer.

Presumably this small amount of oil was necessary to maintain the condition of the lining materials used.

I am nearly at the stage where I can take the car out for a run and will report back when I have tried the car.

Terry, Thanks for your reply presumably if the car has been standing for some time the condition of the clutch could "dry out" and should improve with usage?

Thanks

David

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[Rusty_OToole]

The modern type of dry plate, molded asbestos clutch only came into use in the late teens or early twenties. Before that clutches were an ongoing problem. They tried multi plate wet clutches, scroll clutches, cone clutches lined with leather, all kinds of things. None were perfect. I know of one case, on a 90HP race car, they never did get the clutch to hold. For racing they bolted the flywheel and clutch together, shifted without using the clutch, and stopped by shifting into neutral and killing the motor.

Some cars did not adopt the dry plate clutch until the late twenties, Hudson never did. It appears Panhard didn't either.

[Guest 246gts]

Thanks Rusty for the background info.

Just got back from a 20 mile drive and the clutch/ gear change was improving all the time. Maybe the clutch is better but probably I am getting used to the car!!

I bought the car last October and have spent the time since then trying to sort out water leaks, firstly ones coming out of the engine and secondly water leaking into the oil which was a bit more problematic. So until today I have driven the car once before. Now it is a case of putting a few more miles in to gradually increase my confidence in her so I don't need to carry around all the equipment necessary to get home if she fails!!

Thanks for your help/

David<object type="cosymantecnisbfw" cotype="cs" id="SILOBFWOBJECTID" style="width: 0px; height: 0px; display: block;"></object>

[dictator27]

Rusty mentions leather faced cone clutches in his post. To illustrate the problems that early clutches had, here is a humorous story.

For anumber of years I was one of several volunteer drivers of a 1917 Studebaker in a local museum. It has a leather faced cone clutch which is completely exposed to the elements (the transmission is in unit with the differential). There were two essential items kept with the car, neatsfoot oil and fuller's earth. Regular applications of the oil were required to keep the leather supple. Problem was it was difficult to judge how much was needed. Too much would cause the clutch to slip. :mad: To correct that, fuller's earth was thrown at the disengaged clutch as it revolved. Too much of that resulted in severe clutch chatter. The "happy medium" tended to be elusive.

On one occasion the car had been entered in a parade. The driver of the day was experiencing some clutch slippage, so fuller's earth was (too liberally) applied. He said afterward that the resulting clutch chatter was so bad, he had to remove his false teeth otherwise they would have fallen out! :eek:

Terry

[Rusty_OToole]

Thanks Rusty for the background info.

Just got back from a 20 mile drive and the clutch/ gear change was improving all the time. Maybe the clutch is better but probably I am getting used to the car!!

I bought the car last October and have spent the time since then trying to sort out water leaks, firstly ones coming out of the engine and secondly water leaking into the oil which was a bit more problematic. So until today I have driven the car once before. Now it is a case of putting a few more miles in to gradually increase my confidence in her so I don't need to carry around all the equipment necessary to get home if she fails!!

Thanks for your help/

David<object type="cosymantecnisbfw" cotype="cs" id="SILOBFWOBJECTID" style="width: 0px; height: 0px; display: block;"></object>

It sounds like the clutch is functioning correctly, for an oil bath clutch. You might try thinner oil or even transmission fluid. Only use the transmission fluid if the clutch is separate from the gearbox, and not too leaky. Trans fluid will leak out even faster than oil.

Don't use synthetic oil or anything too slippery like STP. Trans fluid is slippery but has additives to make multi plate clutches grip.

[GLong]

Does your clutch design have a friction disc that stops the rotation of the transmission input shaft when the clutch is fully depressed? Usually known as a 'Clutch Brake' ?

Many transmissions need the heavy 600wt trans lube to slow down the spinning input shaft when the clutch is depressed. If you use modern 85-90wt gear oil there is little resistance or drag in the trans, and the input shaft just won't slow down if there is ANY clutch drag.

See if there is some form of device that is engaged or applied when the clutch pedal is right on the floor.

On most mid 20's Pierces, the owners manual states that the proper adjustment leaves 1/4-1/2" of gap under the clutch pedal when fully depressed, the pedal travel is stopped by the release bearing being pulled against the clutch brake friction disc.. This is with a Borg&Beck single disc dry clutch.

My '15 Chandler is supposed to have 1/2 pint of Kerosene/motor oil mix in the clutch housing, the mix ratio is stated as 7parts Kerosene/1part oil. It has a multi disc clutch. But I run it dry, and it works wonderfully, smooth engagement and fully disengages. This design also has a clutch brake to stop the spinning input shaft.

Hope this helps

GLong

[Rusty_OToole]

Glong I hope you don't damage or wear out your clutch. I would use auto trans fluid myself. It would be as thin as the oil mix but with better friction improvers, wear preventers etc.

[GLong]

Hi Rusty, I have spoken with quite a few Chandler owners and everyone says to run it dry. I looked the clutch and mechanisms over very thoroughly and the friction discs are new, the release bearing is new and modified with a lubrication fitting, and the clutch brake material is new, and the linkages are adjusted correctly.

A properly used clutch will have virtually unlimited life in a 'teens car driven only on tours, not climbing steep hills from a stand-still, or carrying a huge load etc. the amount of friction area is 3 or 4x that of a single dry disc in the mid 20's Pierces I own, so I'm just keeping a close eye on the clutch and mechanism. Thankfully there is a very big inspection plate on the top of the bell housing under the floor boards, which allows a very good view of the whole assembly.

If I do decide to use anything on the clutch, I agree that ATF would make the most sense, it has many properties useful for clutch surfaces. But since I was not the guy to reline this clutch, I don't know what the materials are that were used.. it is amazingly smooth, not grabby at all, and no drag when disengaged, it just works right.

GLong